Question for Partial Preterists Split in Matthew 24

How do those calling themselves Partial Preterist view Matthew 24?

It seems there is a little "confusion" with that camp concerning whether there is a "break" in it and that is showing the future 2nd Coming, whereas some PPs view it as all fulfilled.

My question is, why is there such a difference of views within Partial Preterism on that? [btw, I will not be participating in the voting] Thanks

http://www.preteristsite.com/plain/warrenend.html

*snip*

Bait and Switch?

I had promised that although I am not dogmatic beyond verse 34 that I would explore the issue of Matthew 24 past that point a bit. However, though I may build on this section in the future, it is not intended to be comprehensive as was the prior section.

There are two primary camps within preterism on this issue:
one view holds that there is a break in Matthew 24 beginning with either verse 35 or 36 [Switch-On],
and another that holds that the entire enchilada primarily belongs to the first century [Switch-Off].

Proponents of the former view include Dan Trotter and Gary DeMar,
and proponents of the latter include Kenneth Gentry and Marcellus Kik.

Frankly there are strong arguments for both, and I have held both positions, in fact in writing this piece I have waffled - when I started writing I was becoming very convinced of a Pro-Switch view, now upon writing it I am back to my former position of a No-Switch view.

If in fact there is any change after verse 34, this would be what I would propose (I have not—or my poor memory is not allowing me to recall—read anyone who has made this type of the characterization): the entire Discourse has primary and typological ramifications as does almost the entirety of the Bible, properly understood.

The subject matter up to verse 34 is strongly primarily speaking of the first century and only very loosely can have thematic application to the future. After verse 34, Jesus speaks much more loosely, doesn't give a strong time referent and refers in ways that can refer to either the first century, the consummation, or both. I have swayed in various positions so it is unknown if this will be my final resting place. . . . (after completely writing this piece, I am saying probably not).

Shameless bump

Soon and very soon, we are going to see the King

Soon and very soon, we are going to see the King...

no more dying there, we are BORN to see the King

No more crying there, we are BORN to see the King....

I know what you believe, but there are SEVERAL of the things in Matthew 24 still to come...
That was not the final sign in the sky back then, we still have one to come

It is like Catholics and Protestants talking about praying to the dead, or eating the .... THAT is why it is not allowed, because of the dumb stuff that someone might say to another dumb person and then two people get all dumb founded and everyone gets sides and KABOOOM!!!....

What was the question again?



Lots Of Love (LOL)
Brother Jerry

I don't think there's a break at vs 34-35.

Yekcidmij said:

I don't think there's a break at vs 34-35.

Click to expand...

I agree

Interesting thread.....bump

I'm preteristic in my veiws, but I don't worry about it (eschatology) too much, hence I haven't really studied it or thought too much about it and don't really know what it all entails. I voted "I don't know", but I've never been one very big one too much literal fulfilment were the fulfillment makes it sound like a sci-fi movie or a mathematical equation.

IOW, I have no idea.

beforHim said:

I'm preteristic in my veiws, but I don't worry about it (eschatology) too much, hence I haven't really studied it or thought too much about it and don't really know what it all entails. I voted "I don't know", but I've never been one very big one too much literal fulfilment were the fulfillment makes it sound like a sci-fi movie or a mathematical equation.

IOW, I have no idea.

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting

Matthew 24 describes everything from the desolation of Israel until Christ comes. Matthew 24 is a 2000 year description in answer to the question the disciples asked Jesus at the beginning.

trialbyfire said:

Matthew 24 describes everything from the desolation of Israel until Christ comes. Matthew 24 is a 2000 year description in answer to the question the disciples asked Jesus at the beginning.

Click to expand...

Are you a "Historicist" then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism_(Christian_eschatology)

Historicism is a school of interpretation which treats the eschatological prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as finding literal earthly fulfillment through the history of the church age and especially in relation to the struggle between the true church and apostasy. Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism, Futurism and Idealism.............

Btw, could I possibly get your view on this thread? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

No, I am not "historicist" in my view. I am strictly scriptural. I do not follow teachings of men. I trust in God alone. The Bible describes events that happened from the beginning to the end which, Biblically, is a 14,000 year time frame. We are currently about 13,000 years into it.

trialbyfire said:

No, I am not "historicist" in my view. I am strictly scriptural. I do not follow teachings of men. I trust in God alone. The Bible describes events that happened from the beginning to the end which, Biblically, is a 14,000 year time frame. We are currently about 13,000 years into it.

Click to expand...

How do you arrive at the time frame?

The answer is found below.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,

Past

until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Future

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

BABerean2 said:

The answer is found below.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
Past


until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Future
.

Click to expand...

Same event as Revelation 11:2 Fulfilled in the 1st century....

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court<833>[Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.[Luke 21:24]

[Luke 21:24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]]

LittleLambofJesus said:

Same event as Revelation 11:2

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court<833>[Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.[Luke 21:24]

[Luke 21:24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]]

Click to expand...

If you ignore the verses found below, maybe you can make your 70 AD doctrine work...


Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

BABerean2 said:

If you ignore the verses found below, maybe you can make your 70 AD doctrine work...

Click to expand...

If you ignore the parallel verses I quoted, maybe you can make your Futurist post-70AD doctrine to work....

Same event as Revelation 11:2 Fulfilled in the 1st century....

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court<833>[Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.[Luke 21:24]

[Luke 21:24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]]
===================
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

• Partial Preterism:
  
• Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
  
• The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Millennialism:

• Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.

Preterism - Wikipedia
Partial preterism
Partial preterism (often referred to as orthodox preterism or classical preterism) may hold that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70[23] or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.[24][25]

Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were not historically fulfilled.

Some partial preterists identify "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17–18) with the pagan Roman Empire, though some, such as N.T. Wright, David Chilton, and Kenneth Gentry identify it with the city of Jerusalem.[23][26] Most interpretations identify Nero as the Beast,[27][28][29][30][31][32][33][a] while his mark is often interpreted as the stamped image of the emperor's head on every coin of the Roman Empire: the stamp on the hand or in the mind of all, without which no one could buy or sell.[34]

Another partial preterist view regards first and second century events as recurrent patterns with Nero and Bar Kochba presented as archetypes. There is evidence that the epithet of Bar Kochba is a play on the Hebrew "Shema" with the value equating to the gematria value of 666. The pun on his patronymic equates to the variant reading 616.[35]

However, others believe the Book of Revelation was written after Nero's suicide in AD 68, and identify the Beast with another emperor. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that Revelation was "written during the latter part of the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian, probably in AD 95 or 96".[36] Many Protestant scholars agree.[37][38]

The Second Coming, resurrection of the dead, and Final Judgment however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.[39]

"The theologically liberal accusations that the New Testament writers taught that Jesus Christ would return in their own lifetimes (thus denying Biblical infallibility) is no less erroneous than is the notion by some conservatives that we must attribute most or all of such texts to the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70 in order to maintain the integrity of the Bible’s infallibility" - P. Andrew Sandlin

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history

Preterism - Wikipedia

Influences within Christian thought
Partial preterism is generally considered to be a historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all eschatological points of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church.[47][48][49]
Still, partial preterism is not the majority view among American denominations founded after 1500 and meets with significant vocal opposition, especially by those denominations which espouse Dispensationalism.[47][49][50]

Additionally, Dispensationalists are concerned that partial preterism logically leads to an acceptance of full preterism, a concern which is denied by partial preterists.[51]
=================

LittleLambofJesus said:

Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were not historically fulfilled.

Click to expand...

See your quote above, and try again...

.

BABerean2 said:

See your quote above, and try again...

.

Click to expand...

I will wait for other members to respond........

• Partial Preterism:
  
• Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
  
• The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
===============================================
Preterism - Wikipedia

Interpretation of the Great Tribulation
Main article: Great Tribulation
In the preterist view, the Tribulation took place in the past when Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70 during the end stages of the First Jewish–Roman War, and it affected only the Jewish people rather than all mankind.

Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around 70 AD when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.

A preterist discussion of the Tribulation has its focus on the Gospels, in particular the prophetic passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, the Olivet discourse, rather than on the Apocalypse or Book of Revelation. (Preterists apply much of the symbolism in the Revelation to Rome, the Cæsars, and their persecution of Christians, rather than to the Tribulation upon the Jews.)

Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:34 that "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" is tied back to his similar warning to the Scribes and the Pharisees that their judgment would "come upon this generation" (Matthew 23:36), that is, during the first century rather than at a future time long after the Scribes and Pharisees had passed from the scene. The destruction in 70 AD occurred within a 40-year generation from the time when Jesus gave that discourse.

The judgment on the Jewish nation was executed by the Roman legions, "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15). This can also be found in Luke (Luke 21:20).

Since Matthew 24 begins with Jesus visiting the Jerusalem Temple and pronouncing that "there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down" (vs. 3), preterists see nothing in Scripture to indicate that another Jewish temple will ever be built. The prophecies were all fulfilled on the then-existing temple that Jesus spoke about and that was subsequently destroyed within that generation.

Key verses
“When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.” Matthew 10:23, NRSV

“But truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27, NRSV

“ for these are days of vengeance, as a fulfillment of all that is written.” Luke 21:22, NRSV

“Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28, NRSV (quoted mostly by full preterists)

“Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.” Matthew 24:34, NRSV

This predicted event has been variously interpreted as referring to:

1. Jesus' transfiguration
2. the resurrection
3. the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost
4. the spread of the kingdom through the preaching of the early church
5. the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem in AD 70
6. the second coming and final establishment of the kingdom
7. the coming of Jesus Christ in vision to the apostle John in revelation.[56]

Many preterists find view 6 unacceptable because it implies a mistake on the part of Jesus about the timing of his return. Many[quantify] preterists believe the immediate context seems to indicate the first view, the transfiguration, which immediately follows (Matthew 17:1–9; Mark 9:2–10; Luke 9:28–36). This view seems to satisfy that "some" disciples would see the glory of the Son of Man, but it does not satisfy the statement that "he will repay every man for what he has done". The same situation occurs with views 2 through 4. Only view 5 (the judgement on Jerusalem in AD 70) appears to satisfy both conditions (reinforced with Revelation 2:23; 20:12; 22:12), as a preterist would argue.[citation needed]
===========================