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Biblewriter

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Quote scripture proving your claim.
You have now TWICE made FALSE statements about the history of this doctrine, and BOTH times, when I challenged you on that, you have answered, "Quote scripture proving your claim." You know perfectly well that this is nothing but an attempt to distract attention from the FACT that you have now TWICE made FALSE allegations about the history of this doctrine.
 
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Dave L

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You have now TWICE made FALSE statements about the history of this doctrine, and BOTH times, when I challenged you on that, you have answered, "Quote scripture proving your claim." You know perfectly well that this is nothing but an attempt to distract attention from the FACT that you have now TWICE made FALSE allegations about the history of this doctrine.
You still have no scripture to support a pre-trib rapture or you would present it.
 
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Biblewriter

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You still have no scripture to support a pre-trib rapture or you would present it.
I have repeatedly presented the scriptural evidence for the rapture coming before the great tribulation, and HARD PROOF that this doctrine goes all the way back to before the year 200. And you have simply denied all of it.

As for a scriptural statement of the timing of the rapture, as related to the timing of other events prophesied for the end times, the scriptures simply do not state this timing. ALL theories concerning its timing are based on interpretations of various scriptures. But essentially all arguments against concluding that the rapture comes before the great tribulation are based on an unprovable assumption that the Lord is only returning one time. No scripture states this, but the anti-pre-tribbers insist upon it as if the scriptures did indeed say that, and refuse to admit that the various prophecies about our Lord's return contain mutually exclusive details. That is, details that cannot even possibly take place at the same time.

And those who deny that there will be a rapture are denying explicitly stated scripture.
 
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Dave L

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I have repeatedly presented the scriptural evidence for the rapture coming before the great tribulation, and HARD PROOF that this doctrine goes all the way back to before the year 200. And you have simply denied all of it.

As for a scriptural statement of the timing of the rapture, as related to the timing of other events prophesied for the end times, the scriptures simply do not state this timing. ALL theories concerning its timing are based on interpretations of various scriptures. But essentially all arguments against concluding that the rapture comes before the great tribulation are based on an unprovable assumption that the Lord is only returning one time. No scripture states this, but the anti-pre-tribbers insist upon it as if the scriptures did indeed say that, and refuse to admit that the various prophecies about our Lord's return contain mutually exclusive details. That is, details that cannot even possibly take place at the same time.

And those who deny that there will be a rapture are denying explicitly stated scripture.
Let's see it.
 
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Biblewriter

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Let's see it.
I know without asking that you will pretend that this is not proof. But for the sake of the lurkers on this thread,here it is. But before reading this, Keep in mind that I already very clearly stated that he scriptures simply do not directly state he timing of the rapture, as related to othetr end time events which are prophesied in the Holy Scriptures. They do directly state the timing of His coming in power and glory to Judge the world and to deliver Israel. But that iss a different coming.


The rapture of the church

Note: this is copyrighted material from my book, “Keys to Bible Prophecy” used by permission of the copyright owner.

For Christians of the present time, all other prophetic events pale into nothingness beside this one great event, which the scriptures speak of in numerous places. Jesus spoke of it, saying, “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2-3) But we also read, “that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

In the first passage above our Lord says “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The second one speaks of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” It is obvious that His coming to receive us to Himself has to take place before His coming “with all His saints.” The words used by the Holy Spirit do not allow any other conclusion. But how long before “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” will He “come again and receive” us to Himself?

The answer to this question begins with the promise, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this verse is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) which indeed means from, but in the sense of away from or out of. Some imagine that this only means out of after being in the “hour of trial.” But Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines ek, as it is used in Revelation 3:10, to mean “to keep one at a distance from.” Indeed, this becomes obvious when we consider the word “keep” in this phrase. This word is translated from the Greek word tereo. (word number 5083 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) It literally means to guard, but in the scriptures was usually used in the sense of our English word keep, and is so translated more than two-thirds of the times tereo occurs in the Greek text of the New Testament. So it is clear that the real meaning of this promise is to be kept out of “the hour of trial.”

To really understand this, we need to consider another promise made concerning a part of the same time period. The Lord said to Israel and Judah, “Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of ·Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.” (Jeremiah 30:6-7) In this case, the Hebrew word translated saved is yasha’. (word number 3467 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This Hebrew word means saved in the sense of succor. In the KJV, this Hebrew word is rendered save 149 times, deliver 13 times, help 12 times, and once as rescue. We notice this to clearly understand that this Hebrew word carries an entirely different sense from the Greek word tereo used in Revelation 3:10. In one case, the Lord promised to help some of His own get through a time of trouble designed for themselves. In the other, He promised to keep others of His own out of a time of testing designed for others.


But what is this “the hour of trial” that they will be kept out of? The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” It is specifically called “the hour,” for the word “the” is in the Greek text, as the word ho. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary)

Note: Unlike English, in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew, definite articles are normally used only for stress. If the word “the” is in the original text, it means the thing being referred to is a particular thing, not just something in general.

But what “hour of trial” is this specific time that they are they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

There is a specific “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word here translated to test is peirasmon. (a singular infinitive of peirasmos, word number 3985 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This literally means exactly as it is translated, to test. So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.” Its purpose is not to test the saints of God, but “those who dwell on the earth.” This is a moral class, those whose hearts are on the earth, rather than in heaven. This moral class is named in these words eight times in the Revelation, and always in a negative light. These eiht tmes are Revelation 3:10, 11:10, 13:8, 13:12, 13:14 (twice) 14:6 and 17:8. They are also mentioed as “inhabitants of the earth” in Revelation 12:12.

But we are also told where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” The Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing. So there is coming a specific time of testing, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the Lord’s own are promised that they will be kept out of that time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the Lord’s own will be kept out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing. So we see that Revelation 3:10 says the Lord’s own will be removed from the earth before this time of testing begins.
( to be continued)
 
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Biblewriter

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(Copyrghted material continued from last post)

We see this again in a passage about Noah and Lot. “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:4-9)

Here the Holy Spirit gives us two specific examples, Noah and Lot, both of whom were physically removed from the scene of judgment before it took place. Then, in the context of these two examples, the He said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:9)

Thus the Holy Spirit showed His intention to “deliver the godly out of temptations” by physically removing them from the scene “of temptations” before they take place, just as He did for Noah and Lot. The Greek word here translated from is the same ek used in Revelation 3:10, which, as we saw on page 104, normally means from in the sense of away from or out of. And the Greek word translated temptations is peirasmon, the same word that, as we saw on page 106, was used in Revelation 3:10. There are no accidents in the precise wording of scripture. The fact that the Holy Spirit used these same two words in these two parallel passages is highly significant.

Again, we read of the coming of “the man of sin.” The Holy Spirit said “And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) In this scripture the Holy Spirit first clearly identified the restrainer as a personality by calling him He. Then He said “you know what is restraining.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that he was speaking of Himself. No other possible individual could be so obvious he did not need to be named.

We are told that “He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” How can this be, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth”is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that He will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”

We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” The Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of truth,”is truly given “that He may abide with you forever.” But Jesus, “the Lord Himself,” will also “descend from heaven” and catch us up “to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” This event has to be the time when the Holy Spirit is “taken out of the way.” This is because the Holy Spirit will be with the saints of God forever, so He cannot be “taken out of the way” either before or after the saints of God are removed from this earth. It is therefore plain that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” at the same time the Saints of God will be “caught up... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But it is only after that happens that “the lawless one will be revealed.” For we remember that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) So this scripture, which shows that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” before the Antichrist, “the lawless one,” will be revealed thereby shows that the rapture has to take place before that time.

We see this again in the parable of the ten virgins, where we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see “those who were ready” taken into the wedding while “the other virgins” are held outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. The fact that the door remains closed for those that were not “ready” is highlighted in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, where we are told that “they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” But we need to remember that this is after “those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” That is, at the time of the rapture.

Finally, in Revelation 4:4 we read, “Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.” As there were twelve tribes in Israel and twelve apostles, this appears to indicate the presence of all the Old Testament and New Testament saints of God already in heaven before the beginning of the seal and trumpet visions of Revelation six through nine. While this is only interpretation, it is another reason for concluding that the rapture will be the first of the events prophesied for the end times..
 
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BABerean2

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But what “hour of trial” is this specific time that they are they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”


Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.
 
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Dave L

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I know without asking that you will pretend that this is not proof. But for the sake of the lurkers on this thread,here it is. But before reading this, Keep in mind that I already very clearly stated that he scriptures simply do not directly state he timing of the rapture, as related to othetr end time events which are prophesied in the Holy Scriptures. They do directly state the timing of His coming in power and glory to Judge the world and to deliver Israel. But that iss a different coming.


The rapture of the church

Note: this is copyrighted material from my book, “Keys to Bible Prophecy” used by permission of the copyright owner.

For Christians of the present time, all other prophetic events pale into nothingness beside this one great event, which the scriptures speak of in numerous places. Jesus spoke of it, saying, “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2-3) But we also read, “that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

In the first passage above our Lord says “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The second one speaks of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” It is obvious that His coming to receive us to Himself has to take place before His coming “with all His saints.” The words used by the Holy Spirit do not allow any other conclusion. But how long before “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” will He “come again and receive” us to Himself?

The answer to this question begins with the promise, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this verse is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) which indeed means from, but in the sense of away from or out of. Some imagine that this only means out of after being in the “hour of trial.” But Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines ek, as it is used in Revelation 3:10, to mean “to keep one at a distance from.” Indeed, this becomes obvious when we consider the word “keep” in this phrase. This word is translated from the Greek word tereo. (word number 5083 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) It literally means to guard, but in the scriptures was usually used in the sense of our English word keep, and is so translated more than two-thirds of the times tereo occurs in the Greek text of the New Testament. So it is clear that the real meaning of this promise is to be kept out of “the hour of trial.”

To really understand this, we need to consider another promise made concerning a part of the same time period. The Lord said to Israel and Judah, “Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of ·Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.” (Jeremiah 30:6-7) In this case, the Hebrew word translated saved is yasha’. (word number 3467 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This Hebrew word means saved in the sense of succor. In the KJV, this Hebrew word is rendered save 149 times, deliver 13 times, help 12 times, and once as rescue. We notice this to clearly understand that this Hebrew word carries an entirely different sense from the Greek word tereo used in Revelation 3:10. In one case, the Lord promised to help some of His own get through a time of trouble designed for themselves. In the other, He promised to keep others of His own out of a time of testing designed for others.


But what is this “the hour of trial” that they will be kept out of? The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” It is specifically called “the hour,” for the word “the” is in the Greek text, as the word ho. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary)

Note: Unlike English, in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew, definite articles are normally used only for stress. If the word “the” is in the original text, it means the thing being referred to is a particular thing, not just something in general.

But what “hour of trial” is this specific time that they are they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

There is a specific “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word here translated to test is peirasmon. (a singular infinitive of peirasmos, word number 3985 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This literally means exactly as it is translated, to test. So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.” Its purpose is not to test the saints of God, but “those who dwell on the earth.” This is a moral class, those whose hearts are on the earth, rather than in heaven. This moral class is named in these words eight times in the Revelation, and always in a negative light. These eiht tmes are Revelation 3:10, 11:10, 13:8, 13:12, 13:14 (twice) 14:6 and 17:8. They are also mentioed as “inhabitants of the earth” in Revelation 12:12.

But we are also told where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” The Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing. So there is coming a specific time of testing, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the Lord’s own are promised that they will be kept out of that time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the Lord’s own will be kept out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing. So we see that Revelation 3:10 says the Lord’s own will be removed from the earth before this time of testing begins.
( to be continued)
Any direct quotes without a tremendous amount of labor to stake your claim?
 
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Biblewriter

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Any direct quotes without a tremendous amount of labor to stake your claim?
I already VERY CLEARLY stated that the scriptures DO NOT DIRECTLY STATE the timing of the rapture. ANY and ALL positions on its timing are based on INTERPRETATION. End of story.
 
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jgr

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I have repeatedly presented the scriptural evidence for the rapture coming before the great tribulation, and HARD PROOF that this doctrine goes all the way back to before the year 200. And you have simply denied all of it.

Obviously not hard enough for no less than Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"
 
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Biblewriter

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Obviously not hard enough for no less than Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"
I have already posted proof, which you have seen, of why Ice was mistaken about this.
 
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Biblewriter

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Until it appears on Ice's website, your proof is proofless.
Whether Ice agrees with it or not is TOTALLY immaterial. I disagree with him on MANY things, including the fact that his end time scenario totally ignores the one end time individual who is mentioned in more Bible prophecy than and other TWO end time individuals.

This is "the Assyrian,"who is found in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30, ad 31, In Micah 5, and in every chapter of Nahum, and when we realize who he is, we realize that he is also found in two chapters of Daniel. But the scenario first developed by Pentecost and endorsed by Ice totally ignores all of this, even though for the hundred years before Pentecost almst all dispensational scholars noticed them.
 
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Dave L

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I already VERY CLEARLY stated that the scriptures DO NOT DIRECTLY STATE the timing of the rapture. ANY and ALL positions on its timing are based on INTERPRETATION. End of story.
They don't ever mention a pre-trib rapture.
 
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jgr

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Whether Ice agrees with it or not is TOTALLY immaterial. I disagree with him on MANY things, including the fact that his end time scenario totally ignores the one end time individual who is mentioned in more Bible prophecy than and other TWO end time individuals.

This is "the Assyrian,"who is found in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30, ad 31, In Micah 5, and in every chapter of Nahum, and when we realize who he is, we realize that he is also found in two chapters of Daniel. But the scenario first developed by Pentecost and endorsed by Ice totally ignores all of this, even though for the hundred years before Pentecost almst all dispensational scholars noticed them.

Not immaterial at all when the oracle of pretribulationism won't give you a byte of its space.

Additionally, I disproved your fallacies about Irenaeus previously beginning here.
 
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Whether Ice agrees with it or not is TOTALLY immaterial. I disagree with him on MANY things, including the fact that his end time scenario totally ignores the one end time individual who is mentioned in more Bible prophecy than and other TWO end time individuals.

This is "the Assyrian,"who is found in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30, ad 31, In Micah 5, and in every chapter of Nahum, and when we realize who he is, we realize that he is also found in two chapters of Daniel. But the scenario first developed by Pentecost and endorsed by Ice totally ignores all of this, even though for the hundred years before Pentecost almst all dispensational scholars noticed them.

I invite you to provide the name of any recognized post-apostolic scholar before the 19th century who identified any Assyrian in your cited chapters as an "end time individual".
 
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keras

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It is very sad, really, that there is even an a discussion on whether people will be taken to heaven before any Tribulation, or at any time.
I would say that the "rapture" is Satan's most successful deception since the apple.

Jesus says such a thing is impossible and many scriptures tell us we must endure until the end. Rapture removal totally refuted!
 
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jgr

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Again, we read of the coming of “the man of sin.” The Holy Spirit said “And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) In this scripture the Holy Spirit first clearly identified the restrainer as a personality by calling him He. Then He said “you know what is restraining.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that he was speaking of Himself. No other possible individual could be so obvious he did not need to be named.

We are told that “He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” How can this be, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth”is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that He will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”

Consult the prophetic wisdom of the early saints for enlightenment:

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

St. John Chrysostom (c. 347-407) Doctor of the Church
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

St. Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430) Doctor of the Church
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem did affirm the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386) Doctor of the Church
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...


Note also that neither the KJV, nor the YLT, nor the NASB, nor a clear majority of English Bible versions, capitalize the word "he" as it refers to the one who "letteth", or restrains, in the associated verses in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Said capitalization only appears in those modern versions which, in departing from the historical consensus, erroneously interpret "he" to be the Holy Spirit.
 
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Biblewriter

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Not immaterial at all when the oracle of pretribulationism won't give you a byte of its space.

Additionally, I disproved your fallacies about Irenaeus previously beginning here.
Actually, I don't know if he has even seen my book. But it is pure nonsense to call him "the oracle of pretribulationism." He is simply one of the loudest voices.
 
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Biblewriter

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I invite you to provide the name of any recognized post-apostolic scholar before the 19th century who identified any Assyrian in your cited chapters as an "end time individual".
And whenever a name and citation is provided, you pretend that that person is not "a recognized scholar."
 
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