Jesus is Israel. How so?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 1, 2019

AlexDTX said:
I did not. The word "if" implies some believe it.

Um, YES you did! I didn't bring it up, you did. The rest of what you wrote has nothing to do with my responses to your post regarding khazarian converts.

DamianWarS · Nov 1, 2019

Dave L said:
Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel. So Abraham's seed (Jesus) is Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)

“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)

“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)

“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900) This means believers are Israel too.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

The Church of Believers are called by God's name - Israel.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

Ultimately God's covenant people is not an ethnicity but it is a spiritual designation where through faith we become co-heirs with Christ or co-citizens. Christ is the Israel, Israel could never be. We love this stuff until we read Revelation then all of a sudden Israel is the nation Israel and we must throw every bit of blind support at it.

William Lefranc · Nov 1, 2019

Nige55 said:
I've discussed this with you before Dave, and from that discussion you also could not see that only in Christ is there neither Jew nor gentile. It's only through him, so Jews who do not accept him are still Jews. Only when we accept him do those definitions evaporate.
With your approach, by saying that Jews do not exist after the cross you'd also have to say that male and female no longer exist (which some crazies in this world are advocating).
Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I believe you are correct.

William Lefranc · Nov 1, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Um, YES you did! I didn't bring it up, you did. The rest of what you wrote has nothing to do with my responses to your post regarding khazarian converts.

What you are doing here? You complained abb

DamianWarS said:
Ultimately God's covenant people is not an ethnicity but it is a spiritual designation where through faith we become co-heirs with Christ or co-citizens. Christ is the Israel, Israel could never be. We love this stuff until we read Revelation then all of a sudden Israel is the nation Israel and we must throw every bit of blind support at it.

Revelation is a book that most Christians do not understand. Again, most believers have read what other people say it means and have accepted men's opinions, yet this book remains a mystery to those who have never read it consistently for themselves and prayed about its true meaning.

I'll give you a hint which I'm sure you will reject. The main topic of Revelation is the judgment of the harlot that Revelation calls "Babylon." Guess who Babylon represents? Not Rome, but Israel!

:clap:

DamianWarS · Nov 1, 2019

William Lefranc said:
What you are doing here? You complained abb

Revelation is a book that most Christians do not understand. Again, most believers have read what other people say it means and have accepted men's opinions, yet this book remains a mystery to those who have never read it consistently for themselves and prayed about its true meaning.

I'll give you a hint which I'm sure you will reject. The main topic of Revelation is the judgment of the harlot that Revelation calls "Babylon." Guess who Babylon represents? Not Rome, but Israel!

exactly, and if Israel is Babylon who is Isreal?
(I'm confused what the clapping emoji is about)

Original Happy Camper · Nov 2, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Jesus = Church = true spiritual Israel ?

true statement

Original Happy Camper · Nov 2, 2019

William Lefranc said:
What you are doing here? You complained abb

Revelation is a book that most Christians do not understand. Again, most believers have read what other people say it means and have accepted men's opinions, yet this book remains a mystery to those who have never read it consistently for themselves and prayed about its true meaning.

I'll give you a hint which I'm sure you will reject. The main topic of Revelation is the judgment of the harlot that Revelation calls "Babylon." Guess who Babylon represents? Not Rome, but Israel!

IMHO

The main topic is the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST and his saving grace.

as the word says

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Erik Nelson · Nov 2, 2019

William Lefranc said:
What you are doing here? You complained abb

Revelation is a book that most Christians do not understand. Again, most believers have read what other people say it means and have accepted men's opinions, yet this book remains a mystery to those who have never read it consistently for themselves and prayed about its true meaning.

I'll give you a hint which I'm sure you will reject. The main topic of Revelation is the judgment of the harlot that Revelation calls "Babylon." Guess who Babylon represents? Not Rome, but Israel!

Babylon the Great City = Rev 11:8 = where Lord Crucified = 1st century apostate Jerusalem

JLB777 · Nov 2, 2019

Dave-W said:
Genesis 32:28
He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.”

The name Israel means "to strive with God." How can God strive with God?

Israel means to prevail with God.

It also means a prince with God.

JLB

Original Happy Camper · Nov 2, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Babylon the Great City = Rev 11:8 = where Lord Crucified = 1st century apostate Jerusalem

we have to disagree on this one Erick as I am Historist
Prophecy is history in advance
History is prophecy fulfilled

Rev
11:7-10 At the end of the 1,260 years when the “two witnesses” “have finished” prophesying “clothed in sackcloth” the beast comes out of the “bottomless pit” to “make war against them,” “and kill them.” The excesses and corruption of the Papal Church System and the church-supported aristocracy got so bad that their firmest supporter, France, became their worst enemy. This nation not only rejected Catholicism but God Himself; they cast out all morals and everything Christian and set up a new religion glorifying man, reason, and intellect of gods.

During “The Reign of Terror” in France, the Bible was not only openly rejected but was also forbidden and publicly burned. For “three days and a half” (symbolizing 3.5 literal years) the Bible would appear to be “dead.” For three and a half years the Revolutionaries of France did all in their power to oppose and destroy the Bible.

France embraced an atheistic philosophy/religion and became part of the “great city” of false religions. Its characteristics are symbolized by “Sodom and Egypt where also our lord was crucified.” “Sodom” is a notorious Biblical symbol for sexual perversion. Genesis 19:4-11; Jude 7. “Egypt” symbolizes atheism: “Who is the Lord that I should obey His voice to let Israel go?” Exodus 5:2. “Where also our Lord was crucified” represents Christ, crucified in the person of His faithful followers when they are persecuted. John 13:20; Matthew 25:40, 45. In Hebrews 6:4-6 those who once loved Christ and are guilty of willful apostasy are said to “crucify… the Son of God afresh.” France during the French Revolution embraced sexual licentiousness and atheism, rejected the Bible, and persecuted all Christians, both the true and the false together.

Revelation 11 Commentary

dqhall · Nov 2, 2019

Dave L said:
Israel is spiritual only made up of Christ and believers.

To immigrate to the nation of Israel you must be Jewish by birth or conversion. A male desiring Israeli citizenship must be circumcised. To be saved by God you do not need to be circumcised, but must trust in Christ’s commands.

Brian Mcnamee · Nov 2, 2019

Dave L said:
Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel. So Abraham's seed (Jesus) is Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)

“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)

“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)

“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900) This means believers are Israel too.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

The Church of Believers are called by God's name - Israel.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

Hi the two concepts of spiritual and national Israel are not mutually exclusive. So you begin in gen saying promises were made and relate that to the seed which is one in Jesus. The promise of the seed you fail to define as there are two promises regarding that one seed. A great nation is one and in this seed all the nations would be blessed. Right here we have two forks in the road. In the end indeed the kingdom of God is inherited by all those who have their names written in the lamb's book. So in the end all are Israel. The millennial gap still has to come and the hundreds of prophecies will come to pass and not fail. In this covenant theology there was no one ever saved even in the old testament apart from the new covenant. We see in heaven in Rev 5 the song sung to the lamb that he is worthy ...because he had redeemed them from every tribe tongue kindred and nation. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness but he was still in the grave with Lazarus until Jesus paid the price and descended at death and ransomed the righteous from there. Much like this where faith in the past was accounted for righteousness and then later the new covenant brought them in. Spriritual Israel when the new Jerusalem comes must redeem the nation of Israel and Jesus must rule on earth 1st or the prophecies have failed. In a few places it describes the borders of the kingdom when Messiah is here and in notes from the sea as one of the boundaries and in the new Jerusalem there is no sea. I can list hundreds of details that will come to pass that have not yet occurred.

Dave L · Nov 2, 2019

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi the two concepts of spiritual and national Israel are not mutually exclusive. So you begin in gen saying promises were made and relate that to the seed which is one in Jesus. The promise of the seed you fail to define as there are two promises regarding that one seed. A great nation is one and in this seed all the nations would be blessed. Right here we have two forks in the road. In the end indeed the kingdom of God is inherited by all those who have their names written in the lamb's book. So in the end all are Israel. The millennial gap still has to come and the hundreds of prophecies will come to pass and not fail. In this covenant theology there was no one ever saved even in the old testament apart from the new covenant. We see in heaven in Rev 5 the song sung to the lamb that he is worthy ...because he had redeemed them from every tribe tongue kindred and nation. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness but he was still in the grave with Lazarus until Jesus paid the price and descended at death and ransomed the righteous from there. Much like this where faith in the past was accounted for righteousness and then later the new covenant brought them in. Spriritual Israel when the new Jerusalem comes must redeem the nation of Israel and Jesus must rule on earth 1st or the prophecies have failed. In a few places it describes the borders of the kingdom when Messiah is here and in notes from the sea as one of the boundaries and in the new Jerusalem there is no sea. I can list hundreds of details that will come to pass that have not yet occurred.

Circumcision made one a physical Jew or member of physical Israel. Christ abolished circumcision reducing all unbelieving physical Jews to gentile status. Any of these will be reattached to biblical Israel (Jesus and the Church) upon accepting Jesus as the messiah by faith. Until then, they remain antichrists according to John. Those who deny the Messiah came in the flesh.

Brian Mcnamee · Nov 2, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Jesus = Church = true spiritual Israel ?

In Hosea
8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said:
“Call his name Lo-Ammi,[fn]
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.
“Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’[fn]
There it shall be said to them,
‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Do you know that Jezreel is also the same as the valley of Meggido? Ezekiel 36-40 you might want to read as the LORD speaks to the mountains of Israel and says he is bringing them back form all the nations where they have been scattered and that He will remove the reproach of all the nations in that day and that Israel will no longer bereave the other nations. God notes that He did not bring Israel back for their sakes but for His names sake and notes that Israel has profaned the name of the LORD in all the nations where they were scattered and that in that day God will give them a new heart and they will know that He is the LORD.

The 2nd coming and kingdom age are clearly see as transitioning in Zech 14 where the LORD comes with all his saints when Jerusalem is being overrun and He saves Israel and melts the enemies and is king over all the earth. The MT of Olives is to split in two and a new river and valley forms that day. It says in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel seeing Jesus and confessing Him as LORD. If you think about this great deliverance it is exactly like Luke 1 predicted Jesus would do.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

One last reference that ties this transition together. In Isaiah 61 Jesus took the scroll and read the portion proclaimed good news and the acceptable year of the LORD. Jesus said this day this has been fulfilled in your hearing. Jesus stopped mid sentence and this same person who proclaims the acceptable year of the LORD also brings in the day of vengeance of God. Look at all the Zion Specifics in this day of vengeance and think it over.

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Robin Mauro · Nov 2, 2019

Dave L said:
Jesus is Israel.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel. So Abraham's seed (Jesus) is Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)

“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)

“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)

“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900) This means believers are Israel too.

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

The Church of Believers are called by God's name - Israel.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)

Being an Israelite is not the same as being Israel. Jacob was named Israel by God.

William Lefranc · Nov 2, 2019

View attachment 266065

DamianWarS said:
exactly, and if Israel is Babylon who is Isreal?
(I'm confused what the clapping emoji is about)

Proper Symbolism is one of the keys that we need to have in order to understand the book of Revelation.

View attachment 266065

William Lefranc · Nov 2, 2019

Original Happy Camper said:
IMHO

The main topic is the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST and his saving grace.

as the word says

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It's more than that although you are correct in stating that the book of Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus Christ that comes to us from the perspective of His absolute supremacy over all the powers and principalities in heavenly places.

Dave-W · Nov 2, 2019

JLB777 said:
Israel means to prevail with God.
It also means a prince with God.

I believe those to be Christian Era made up definitions. I have seen no Jewish sources say that.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 3, 2019

William Lefranc said:
What you are doing here? You complained abb

Answering a post that had nothing to do with you

Erik Nelson · Nov 3, 2019

Original Happy Camper said:
we have to disagree on this one Erick as I am Historist
Prophecy is history in advance
History is prophecy fulfilled

Rev
11:7-10 At the end of the 1,260 years when the “two witnesses” “have finished” prophesying “clothed in sackcloth” the beast comes out of the “bottomless pit” to “make war against them,” “and kill them.” The excesses and corruption of the Papal Church System and the church-supported aristocracy got so bad that their firmest supporter, France, became their worst enemy. This nation not only rejected Catholicism but God Himself; they cast out all morals and everything Christian and set up a new religion glorifying man, reason, and intellect of gods.

During “The Reign of Terror” in France, the Bible was not only openly rejected but was also forbidden and publicly burned. For “three days and a half” (symbolizing 3.5 literal years) the Bible would appear to be “dead.” For three and a half years the Revolutionaries of France did all in their power to oppose and destroy the Bible.

France embraced an atheistic philosophy/religion and became part of the “great city” of false religions. Its characteristics are symbolized by “Sodom and Egypt where also our lord was crucified.” “Sodom” is a notorious Biblical symbol for sexual perversion. Genesis 19:4-11; Jude 7. “Egypt” symbolizes atheism: “Who is the Lord that I should obey His voice to let Israel go?” Exodus 5:2. “Where also our Lord was crucified” represents Christ, crucified in the person of His faithful followers when they are persecuted. John 13:20; Matthew 25:40, 45. In Hebrews 6:4-6 those who once loved Christ and are guilty of willful apostasy are said to “crucify… the Son of God afresh.” France during the French Revolution embraced sexual licentiousness and atheism, rejected the Bible, and persecuted all Christians, both the true and the false together.

Revelation 11 Commentary

Revelation says 1260 days = 3.5 years = half of final 7 years of Daniel

Jewish War lasted 7 years (66-73 AD) and half way through the temple and city were desolated as Daniel was shown

Jesus is Israel. How so?

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Active Member

Active Member

Follower of Isa Al Masih

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

Well-Known Member

Newbie

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Well-Known Member

Similar threads