Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

Steven Beck said:

"I agree, God chose us before the foundation of the world through his foreknowledge, because I understand it differently."

No He didn't. Time did not exist before the foundation of the world so how could He foreknow us? With no time to look ahead into there is no foreseeing. Reread Eph 1:4

He did not choose us individually, He chose us collectively as a church to be what? Holy and Blameless. That is God the Father looks at us through the filter of Jesus the Son and He agreed to that before the foundation of the world.

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In some places, Scripture speaks of us as a chosen people collectively, but not always.

"Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:22-24).

We are those whom God has called from among the Jews and Greeks (Gentiles). Hear what he says in that same chapter in the following words.

"For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God" (v. 26-29).

We read this kind of language in Ephesians 1. Matter of fact, if you read verses 11-14, it doubly affirms it in the following words.

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Here we have individuals being discussed. It isn't just a collection, but those whom God has singled out for his own glory and praise in Jesus Christ. Notice in the first sentence that it ends with "so that we who were the first to hope" in conjunction with the predestination of God's plan. Notice the latter sentence affirming the working power and perseverance of God in those whom he has chosen, that they may acquire the very possession they were predestined to partake in.

You must always consider the whole of when these things are discussed. In some places, it refers to the church (and it makes that clear), while in others it speaks of the members therein.

Steven Beck said:

"I agree, God chose us before the foundation of the world through his foreknowledge, because I understand it differently."

No He didn't. Time did not exist before the foundation of the world so how could He foreknow us? With no time to look ahead into there is no foreseeing. Reread Eph 1:4


He did not choose us individually, He chose us collectively as a church to be what? Holy and Blameless. That is God the Father looks at us through the filter of Jesus the Son and He agreed to that before the foundation of the world.

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You are restricting an infinite God to time.

"...who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began..." - 2 Timothy 1:9

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." - Ephesians 1:3-6

This passage proves two statements you have shared all false. As we can see in this passage, God does predestined people unto Salvation...as pointed out already...by His foreknowledge. Also, this was done so before the foundation of the world, which would include time.

And since you assumed my view, I'll clear it up further here. This does not mean mankind lacks the will to choose. We must make a choice. Predestination is true. Free will is also true. God's foreknowledge is the bridge between the two Biblical doctrines. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons in Jesus Christ...our Salvation.

zoidar said:

No one believes this, who believes in God's foreseeing. We all agree that God doesn't change. Also we agree (well most of us) that it is God who choses us. The thing in question is how He chooses us. Is it through foresight or through some other complex reason.

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If election was conditional upon what God foresaw in us, wouldn't that mean we chose ourselves?

zoidar said:

I don't think so. It wouldn't be what He saw in us but that He saw we would repent.

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It doesn't seem consistent though. If we made God choose us, by our repentance, then it isn't really "election" in the real sense of the term. In that case, there is no point in calling us "elect" if we were the ones who made God decide to choose us. The whole doctrine doesn't make sense if God didn't choose freely and apart from anything he saw in us.

In unconditional election, it frees God from finding anything in us for any reason for his election, it was simply an act of grace and mercy toward a few who did not deserve it. Whereas in conditional election God must look through the corridors of time to determine something in eternity past, in unconditional election he had already determined it in himself without any outside influence. The first says that God loves us in Christ based on what he foresaw, the latter because he simply wanted to without seeing anything in us. As Charles Spurgeon once said, "I am sure he chose me before I was born, or else he never would have chosen me afterwards."

Yahkov said:

You are restricting an infinite God to time.

"...who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began..." - 2 Timothy 1:9

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." - Ephesians 1:3-6

This passage proves two statements you have shared all false. As we can see in this passage, God does predestined people unto Salvation...as pointed out already...by His foreknowledge. Also, this was done so before the foundation of the world, which would include time.

And since you assumed my view, I'll clear it up further here. This does not mean mankind lacks the will to choose. We must make a choice. Predestination is true. Free will is also true. God's foreknowledge is the bridge between the two Biblical doctrines. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons in Jesus Christ...our Salvation.

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Again you have mis comprehended what Eph 1:4 says.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Notice He chooses us IN HIM. In WHO? In Christ. We have to be in Christ before the Father chooses us for something. But what is that something He chooses us for? Not salvation.He chooses us to be holy and blameless. What does that mean?

Before the foundation of the world the Father made a pact with the Son that those who follow the Son and become "IN HIM" will be seen as holy and blameless. In other words Jesus the Son is a filter that God the Father looks through to us. We are not holy and blameless but sinners. That is what the Father has predestined.

Verse 5 - The Father also agreed to adopt us as Sons.

So we as individual human beings choose to follow Christ and we be seen as Holy and blameless and we will adopted sons. Nothing about salvation here.

This is where Paul talks about salvation.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yahkov said:

You are restricting an infinite God to time.

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Nope it is because very few people understand time. There are two "times". There is God's time which we call 'eternity' then there is our time which God created when He created the heavens and the Earth. This 'time' is only subject on Earth not in the rest of the universe. We on Earth are bound to this 'time' as are angels and even Satan and the demons.
It is this separate time dimension that throws scientists since the rest of the universe does not follow the laws (physics) of Earth. God created this special 'time' and even God Himself could not look ahead into it until He created it.

God is however still bound by Eternity. You need to think about it. When God speaks does not time pass. Does God God know what He will say a billion years before He says it?

God is a multi dimensional being probably an 8 or 9 dimensional being. Eternity, His time, is about the 10th dimension.

zoidar said:

But it's also God who leads us to repentance. Exactly what part we play in repentance, I'm not sure, can any one of us know?

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Really so what does this mean then?

Eze 18:21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

It seems to mean that God puts ALL responsibility on MAN.

Just thinking about this. I believe I make my own choices. God... how He does this .. wow. Well when I was 15 and take this with a grain of salt I understand if its hard to believe. In this bible study I was going to. At the end they would ask if anyone wanted prayer. Well one day praying for me he says "I see you working with wood. The lord shows me a sawhorse" And some other stuff. I was still in high school lol No.. NO wood working for me! Well at the age of about 20 moved to LA and lost my job in some INS company. This guy I didnt know in Church new I needed a job so told me to be at some address.

And I have been in construction/finish blah blah blah all my life. There have been other things also. Hes God and we think we can figure this out? HAHA. He treats you as if EVERYTHING was done just for you and only you. That your the most important thing to Him. And yet He can do this for every one of us and all be true. I don't know.. still think I make all my own choices.. as if tomorrow has not come yet..pffft brain hurts.. it can happen lol

Jonaitis said:

As Charles Spurgeon once said, "I am sure he chose me before I was born, or else he never would have chosen me afterwards."

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Poppycock. What does Peter say?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Jesus, the Son of God, walked with men that were evil, sinful, full of darkness and He reached out to all.

zoidar said:

But it's also God who leads us to repentance. Exactly what part we play in repentance, I'm not sure, can any one of us know?

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If you have lungs, you will want to breathe, and often don't realize that you're doing just that. When God grants repentance to a sinner, he brings them from death to life, from an unregenerate state to one that is regenerate, that he may behold Christ as he is and want him as he is. Our mind and thoughts, heart and affections, will and choices will be drawn toward Christ. It becomes irresistible for that man to receive the gospel, more than it is to breathe. It is in his new nature to set his faith in Christ, and it is in the same to go on in repentance. In our natural state, we resist and hate God. We must be renewed and changed by this divine power to be true Christians, and this is given only to a few.

Steven Beck said:

Poppycock. What does Peter say?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Jesus, the Son of God, walked with men that were evil, sinful, full of darkness and He reached out to all.

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The apostle is writing to believers in this epistle, keep that in mind. He is not slow to fulfill the promise of his coming, but is patient toward "you," not the world, that any of you should perish, but that all [of you] should reach repentance. In other words, until God saves the last sheep of his fold, then he will return. It affirms unconditional election.

I think you will have a more difficult time interpreting this passage from the Lord Jesus to fit your view.

"Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them" (John 17:7-10).

He does not pray for the world, but for those whom God the Father has given to him. He mentions this same chosen people in another place.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:37-39).

Jonaitis said:

If you have lungs, you will want to breathe, and often don't realize that you're doing just that. When God grants repentance to a sinner, he brings them from death to life, from an unregenerate state to one that is regenerate, that he may behold Christ as he is and want him as he is. Our mind and thoughts, heart and affections, will and choices will be drawn toward Christ. It becomes irresistible for that man to receive the gospel, more than it is to breathe. It is in his new nature to set his faith in Christ, and it is in the same to go on in repentance. In our natural state, we resist and hate God. We must be renewed and changed by this divine power to be true Christians, and this is given only to a few.


The apostle is writing to believers in this epistle, keep that in mind. He is not slow to fulfill the promise of his coming, but is patient toward "you," not the world, that any of you should perish, but that all [of you] should reach repentance. In other words, until God saves the last sheep of his fold, then he will return. It affirms unconditional election.

I think you will have a more difficult time interpreting this passage from the Lord Jesus to fit your view.

"Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them" (John 17:7-10).

He does not pray for the world, but for those whom God the Father has given to him. He mentions this same chosen people in another place.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:37-39).

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So you want God to take all responsibility for your salvation and you none. Sorry but that is not how it works. At the White Throne judgement seat, God will put all responsibility on man.

zoidar said:

I agree that man is naturally inclined towards evil. But how can you know man plays no part in repentance, that it's only God's doing?

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Jonaitis doesn't know. He is making it up.

Steven Beck said:

Nope it is because very few people understand time. There are two "times". There is God's time which we call 'eternity' then there is our time which God created when He created the heavens and the Earth. This 'time' is only subject on Earth not in the rest of the universe. We on Earth are bound to this 'time' as are angels and even Satan and the demons.
It is this separate time dimension that throws scientists since the rest of the universe does not follow the laws (physics) of Earth. God created this special 'time' and even God Himself could not look ahead into it until He created it.

God is however still bound by Eternity. You need to think about it. When God speaks does not time pass. Does God God know what He will say a billion years before He says it?

God is a multi dimensional being probably an 8 or 9 dimensional being. Eternity, His time, is about the 10th dimension.

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Ok, let's try a more logical approach. Our views differ on what predestination entails, but we both agree God predestined before the foundation of the world. You say it's more collective, I believe it is more individual.

We both agree God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but our views differ. Logically, this means before the world began, God knew there would be a fall and God knew the world would need a Saviour. All of this before time on earth began. This would have to mean God knows everything, all the way to the final judgement and beyond, from those whom God knew would reject Him, would kill His Son, to the number of the stars, and even to the number of the hairs on your head.

If you think this logical conclusion is sound, then yes, God indeed could look ahead before He even created the world.

Now, there are usually two common stances on predestination. Some present it in a sense that we have no choice. Others present it in a sense that God knew our choices before time began, and predestined according to this foreknowledge. I hold to the second view.

Yahkov said:

Ok, let's try a more logical approach. Our views differ on what predestination entails, but we both agree God predestined before the foundation of the world. You say it's more collective, I believe it is more individual.

We both agree God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but our views differ. Logically, this means before the world began, God knew there would be a fall and God knew the world would need a Saviour. All of this before time on earth began. This would have to mean God knows everything, all the way to the final judgement and beyond, from those whom God knew would reject Him, would kill His Son, to the number of the stars, and even to the number of the hairs on your head.

If you think this logical conclusion is sound, then yes, God indeed could look ahead before He even created the world.

Now, there are usually two common stances on predestination. Some present it in a sense that we have no choice. Others present it in a sense that God knew our choices before time began, and predestined according to this foreknowledge. I hold to the second view.

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No I don't agree that God chose me at all. Reread what I wrote.

What would you think if I told you that God did not know there would be a fall? What would you think if I told you that God did think that there may be a fall but didn't know 100%. How can I prove this?
When God created the Garden of Eden He planted two trees. The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone talks about the 2nd tree but what about the 1st tree.

When Jesus was on Earth, one thing He said was that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life and Joh_5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. and
Joh_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life;

What if I told you that if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life they would have eaten of Jesus. You see that was Plan A. If Adam and Eve had eaten from that Tree they would have been holy and blameless and they would have been adopted children of God. But the downside of this would have been that any children they had would also have had to eaten of this Tree.

Sin did not have to enter this realm but God was ready when it did.

zoidar said:

Concerning the "crystal ball". Jesus used foreknowledge to know that Peter would deny him thrice. It was hardly God's doing, was it?

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It was Christ's doing that Peter returned to Him, Jesus told Peter he had prayed for him.
Jesus ever lives to intercede for those the Father has given to Him. Jesus did not pray for Judas.
He is able to save to the utmost those who come to God through Him.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

The natural state of a man is to reject Christ and be aligned with the devil, read Ephesians 2.

The supernatural condition of a man is that he believes in Christ as honestly, that is a miracle from God that anyone believes and follows Christ.

In their natural condition, all men are slaves of sin and disobedience which leads to death.