LDS Is Jesus White?

He is the way said:

How do you know that Joseph Smith did not test the angel Moroni?

(New Testament | Revelation 14:6)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

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Nothing in his books state he did.

dzheremi said:

I never implied that they were. My point is that Mormon logic of "I don't see how a person who is of JS' station could do this thing, therefore it's from God", if applied to other things, would make a lot of other things that aren't miracles/from God into something other than what they are, too.



You don't know that. You don't know anything, as far as Mormon claims are concerned. You believe them to be true. You believe that this couldn't be accomplished without God's help, but that's not a reason why anyone should follow you in that belief.

To me, it is totally possible to write 500+ pages of nonsense that doesn't have to mean anything or be connected to anything in real life (or be grammatically correct or have any punctuation) in 65 days. Heck, probably under 65 days now that we have computers and don't have to use old style inkwells or whatever.

Besides, how many of those 500 pages were filled with "it came to pass" phrases ("and it came to pass", "it came to pass", "for it came to pass", etc.) alone? Apparently such phrasing is 2.5% of the total words in the book.

Just for fun, I created a little macro in Word to see how many pages it would take to house all 1,165 instances of "and it came to pass". Turns out that in 11 point Calibri font, you can fit three instances of "and it came to pass" (no capitals, standard spacing) per line, hence 90 instances per page. At this rate, it takes almost 13 pages for "and it came to pass" alone! 1,165 / 90 = 12.94444

The only other phrase in the list with any large frequency ("it came to pass", no "and") fits 6 times per line, hence 180 times per page, adding another 1 1/4 page of just that, since there are 228 instances of that in the BOM. 228/180 = 1.26666

I'm sure JS really needed God's help to write nearly 15 pages of two phrases that are basically the same.

It's like Mormons have an even lower opinion of JS than non-Mormons do.



When did I ever write that you would or should?



Yep. And JS wasn't a Jewish high priest, and there is no consensus on what the objects were used for. I'm going to guess that the Jewish high priests did not put them in a hat so as to translate unheard of languages.

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You said: "I don't see how a person who is of JS' station could do this thing, therefore it's from God"

Yes that is what I believe. We all chose to believe what we perceive to be true. I believe that God is LOVE, the Bible teach us to LOVE one another and the Book of Mormon teaches us to LOVE one another. LOVE is the simple truth which so many people seem to ignore. Why that is, I don't know.

The phrase "it came to pass" appears 452 times in the KJV bible. That is a lot of times. Did you know that Jesus Christ is referred to 3,925 times or once for every 1-1/2 verses in the Book of Mormon? That must have filled a few pages.

Why even mention Mark Twain? Do you put a lot of credibility in his sayings?

dzheremi said:

I'm willing to give Joseph Smith credit for writing the Book of Mormon (perhaps with other people, perhaps not; perhaps based on an amalgamation of earlier sources or other inspiration, perhaps not), and starting the Mormon religion based on his claimed translation of ancient plates he claimed to have found and all this other stuff. (You know the traditional narrative; I don't need to go through every point and evaluate it.) This is actually quite a bit, because I frankly don't care about whatever he managed to produce. Basically what you have is a guy who claimed to find plates and translate them into a book without looking at them in the process by use of a magic rock in a hat. That's patently ridiculous, but I'm willing to grant that this is how the story goes, and insofar as doing so does not mean that any of it is proof of anything miraculous (because it isn't), then I'm fine with it.

What I'm not willing to do is buy into any of the Mormon apologetic claims for things that have real world explanations that do not involve God, or Joseph Smith being a true prophet (nor any kind of seer, translator, or revelator). I don't believe in those things because I am not a Mormon.

Surely this is an understandable position. I don't believe in the foreign origin stories of a religion that I do not belong to. Neither do I believe that Muhammad is a true prophet, nor that his Qur'an is a true revelation from God, or that Bahaullah is a true prophet, nor that his Kitab-i-Aqdas is a true revelation from God, etc. This is not anything weird or unfair in the slightest.

Your prophet is not a prophet, and his book is not a revelation. Nobody outside of Mormonism affirms either.

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I know you are not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I can understand that you do not think JS is a prophet. Only 1 thing. All of the other people that you mentioned did not have a belief in Jesus Christ.

Mohammed actually preached that the true Christianity was so corrupted that it was no longer true, and he did have a place in his religion for Jesus. But Jesus was not the Son of God, but was just another prophet like he was. But interestingly, it would be Jesus who would appear in the future to bring to pass end day prophecies, not him.

JS on the other hand, said that Jesus and his God, God the Father came to him and declared similarly to Mohammed. The Christian church was corrupt and could not be used to prepare the world for the second coming. So through Jesus the Church of Jesus Christ would be restored with all the same form and function and authority needed to save people (both the living and the dead) and get the world ready for the second coming.

I believe there are going to be a lot of real big interesting events happen that will include the Church of Jesus Christ, and will separate our church from all the other Christian churches that exist. It is all in the future, I hope the near future.

For instance, what would you do if the head Rabbi in Jerusalem flew to Salt Lake City and visited with President Russell Nelson of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The visit would be known and widely talked about. Then within a week of the visit, the head Rabbi in Jerusalem announced that the Jews were going to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem.

Asked, why the visit to Salt Lake City, the Rabbi would say, we have lost the explicit details of our temple rites. We were lead by the Lord to President Nelson, who received what we should do in our temple by revelation from the Lord, and now we can feel confident in rebuilding our temple after 2,000 years. We thank President Nelson for this important revelation, and the extended hand to help us build a magnificent temple to the Lord in Jerusalem starting next year.

The building of the Jerusalem temple is one of the great signs of the second coming, and these kinds of events would go a long way to helping people who know what is going on, to prepare themselves to be prepared for when the Lord Jesus the Christ returns.

It would also awaken people who do not know Jesus and in their hearts felt that a important event just took place and started their search for what was happening, and that search lead to seek out Jesus. The whole world needs be prepared, even those that do not believe yet. That is why there are 25,000 missionaries in 170 countries, and when major events take place, these missionaries will be busy preaching and baptizing people all over the world. It will be a tremendous time to live.

Of course this is hypothetical, but what would your heart tell you if this meeting actually took place and the temple started to be built?

mmksparbud said:

Nothing in his books state he did.

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That does not mean that he didn't, he did state how to test spirits.

He is the way said:

Why even mention Mark Twain? Do you put a lot of credibility in his sayings?

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I believe that was me that referred to Mark Twain. I only mentioned him as an example of what American English sounds like for that time---which is not like the Kings English. I did not mention it for any meaning as to it's content, just as to how English sounded from that time.

mmksparbud said:

I believe that was me that referred to Mark Twain. I only mentioned him as an example of what American English sounds like for that time---which is not like the Kings English. I did not mention it for any meaning as to it's content, just as to how English sounded from that time.

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Everyone spoke a different type of English in the early eighteen hundreds than the king's English used in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. dzheremi took a stab at using the king's English, but it was not good. It would be very hard if not impossible for anyone to write a large book in the king's English in just 65 days without making many mistakes other than punctuation or typesetting mistakes which were common during Joseph Smith's time.

He is the way said:

That does not mean that he didn't, he did state how to test spirits.

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It does to me. When dealing with angels claiming to have a message from God---you better believe they are to be tested. That is what scripture says. Even Gideon tested God to make sure the message was truly from God. Sorry, but shaking hands is ridiculous. You test them by what they say---if it goes contrary to the word of God---they are not of God and Moroni is not of God. First sign was that he said the word of God was corrupted and that is blatantly false. JS should have walked away right then and there. Once you get rid of the word of God, anything can be introduced (and was). There really was no reason to hear one more word from this Moroni after he said that.

He is the way said:

Everyone spoke a different type of English in the early eighteen hundreds than the king's English used in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. dzheremi took a stab at using the king's English, but it was not good. It would be very hard if not impossible for anyone to write a large book in the king's English in just 65 days without making many mistakes other than punctuation or typesetting mistakes which were common during Joseph Smith's time.

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Most of it was copied from the KJV so it was not that hard!

He is the way said:

dzheremi took a stab at using the king's English, but it was not good.

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Oh my goodness...are you being serious right now? Was it not completely obvious that I was joking? Human beings joke about things.

It would be very hard if not impossible for anyone to write a large book in the king's English in just 65 days without making many mistakes

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Which JS did make.

other than punctuation or typesetting mistakes which were common during Joseph Smith's time.

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So the Mormon gods don't care about punctuation in their revelations. Go figure. "This is the word of God...arrange it however you want to; I guess we don't care about that part."

Pretty lame, really.

mmksparbud said:

Most of it was copied from the KJV so it was not that hard!

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30 percent does not equal most. Besides Joseph Smith did not have any written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon to his scribes. 372 pages of the Book of Mormon are not related to the Bible. So yes it would have been very difficult. I believe it would have been impossible.

He is the way said:

30 percent does not equal most. Besides Joseph Smith did not have any written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon to his scribes. 372 pages of the Book of Mormon are not related to the Bible. So yes it would have been very difficult. I believe it would have been impossible.

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anything that got difficult he had Moroni to help him.

dzheremi said:

Oh my goodness...are you being serious right now? Was it not completely obvious that I was joking? Human beings joke about things.



Which JS did make.



So the Mormon gods don't care about punctuation in their revelations. Go figure. "This is the word of God...arrange it however you want to; I guess we don't care about that part."

Pretty lame, really.

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Do you really believe you could write a 532 page book in the king's English in 65 days without numerous grammatical mistakes to the king's English? By the way when Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon he did not say the punctuations while dictating it. The English Bible has gone through radical changes through out time and was withheld from the general public for many years. So are you going to say that God did not care about that either?

mmksparbud said:

anything that got difficult he had Moroni to help him.

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Why do you thing Moroni was there during the time when Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon to the scribes?

He is the way said:

Do you really believe you could write a 532 page book in the king's English in 65 days without numerous grammatical mistakes to the king's English?

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Are you deciding not to read the things that you're pretending to reply to? Again, JS made many mistakes in his fake 'translation' of the BOM in an attempt to get it to sound like "the King's English". We're not talking about mistakes relative to modern English usage, but relative to the English language at the time of the KJV that he was imitating so poorly. Even apologetic quasi-academic papers by Mormons admit "the text shifts back and forth randomly between the singular (thou and its variants) and the plural (ye and its siblings) in contexts where the singular form is required."

So do I think I could do so without making the mistakes that JS made? Absolutely. I think I can tell the difference between singular and plural. I'm willing to bet you and everyone else reading this could, too. It's just not that hard to understand, even if the forms of the pronouns being used are archaic.

By the way when Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon he did not say the punctuations while dictating it.

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By the way, I don't care.

The English Bible has gone through radical changes through out time and was withheld from the general public for many years. So are you going to say that God did not care about that either?

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No, but I am going to point out that the supposed 'translation' of the BOM involved the scribe reading each dictation back to JS so that they could be sure that the translation was 100% accurate, which was extra-important because apparently the translation was prevented from continuing if there was any error. Here is BOM witness Martin Harris' explanation of the process, as relayed by Edward Stevenson in the LDS publication Millennial Star (1882):


Should I ever claim such utter stupidity about the translation of the Bible, then it will be relevant to ask me such a ridiculous question. Until then, quit trying to make the Bible like the Book of Mormon. It's a fool's errand.

He is the way said:

Why do you thing Moroni was there during the time when Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon to the scribes?

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You say he is an angel, why wouldn't he be? Gabriel was the one dictating some of the prophecies in the OT, and in the NT. As angels they do not have to be seen, or heard by anyone else. And that is whether they are a fallen angel or not.

dzheremi said:

Are you deciding not to read the things that you're pretending to reply to? Again, JS made many mistakes in his fake 'translation' of the BOM in an attempt to get it to sound like "the King's English". We're not talking about mistakes relative to modern English usage, but relative to the English language at the time of the KJV that he was imitating so poorly. Even apologetic quasi-academic papers by Mormons admit "the text shifts back and forth randomly between the singular (thou and its variants) and the plural (ye and its siblings) in contexts where the singular form is required."

So do I think I could do so without making the mistakes that JS made? Absolutely. I think I can tell the difference between singular and plural. I'm willing to bet you and everyone else reading this could, too. It's just not that hard to understand, even if the forms of the pronouns being used are archaic.



By the way, I don't care.



No, but I am going to point out that the supposed 'translation' of the BOM involved the scribe reading each dictation back to JS so that they could be sure that the translation was 100% accurate, which was extra-important because apparently the translation was prevented from continuing if there was any error. Here is BOM witness Martin Harris' explanation of the process, as relayed by Edward Stevenson in the LDS publication Millennial Star (1882):

Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say "Written," and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.​

Should I ever claim such utter stupidity about the translation of the Bible, then it will be relevant to ask me such a ridiculous question. Until then, quit trying to make the Bible like the Book of Mormon. It's a fool's errand.

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The Book of Mormon is true and is the word of God. It is another testament of Jesus Christ. It was written just as Martin Harris described and the plates were witnessed by eleven people. However it should be known that the Book of Mormon was written on the plates by men, not God Himself. People choose to believe whatever they decide is true. Sadly there were people who believed that Jesus Christ was a deceiver and they wanted Him dead. I believe the gospel is about LOVE, not hate. It is hatred that killed Jesus Christ and the prophets of God. There are people who do not want to keep the commandments of LOVE because they love sin. Glory be to God and to His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

mmksparbud said:

You say he is an angel, why wouldn't he be? Gabriel was the one dictating some of the prophecies in the OT, and in the NT. As angels they do not have to be seen, or heard by anyone else. And that is whether they are a fallen angel or not.

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Did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison before they were resurrected?:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

He is the way said:

By the way when Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon he did not say the punctuations while dictating it.

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By the way---neither the Hebrew, not Aramaic nor Greek have punctuation, capitalization is rare and there were no verses and chapters. So it is highly telling that even the punctuation of the KJV is in those passages copied from the KJV---and something even more telling. This is what JS supposedly said about Luke 24:43, and the word "paradise"

"I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, “This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” King James’ translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was— This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, 1 Peter, 3rd chapt., 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc.

* * * * *

I will now turn linguist. There are many things in the Bible which do not, as they now stand, accord with the revelations of the Holy Ghost to me.

I will criticize a little further. There has been much said about the word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it, describing it to be a burning lake of fire and brimstone. But what is hell? It is another modern term, and is taken from hades. I’ll hunt after hades as Pat did for the woodchuck.

Hades, the Greek, or Shaole, the Hebrew: these two significations mean a world of spirits. Hades, Shaole, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one: it is a world of spirits.
The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection. “I do not think so,” says one. If you will go to my house any time, I will take my lexicon and prove it to you.

The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers. “But,” says one, “I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.”

What! where all are huddled together— the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens. He knew a man that was caught up to the third heavens. Now, if the doctrine of the sectarian world, that there is but one heaven, is true, Paul, what do you tell that lie for, and say there are three? Jesus said unto His disciples, “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and I will come and receive you to myself, that where I am ye may be also.”

Any man may believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and be happy in that belief, and yet not obey his commandments, and at last be cut down for disobedience to the Lord’s righteous requirements. A man of God should be endowed with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, in order to teach and lead the people of God. The sectarian priests are blind, and they lead the blind, and they will all fall into the ditch together. They build with hay, wood, and stubble, on the old revelations, without the true priesthood or spirit of revelation. If I had time, I would dig into hell, hades, shaole, and tell what exists there."
(Documentary History of the Church 5:424–5:426;

He never got to finish the Luke 23:43 translation according to his believes. But he clearly does not understand that the problem with that passage is one of punctuation. We, and other denominations understand the "coma" inserted in the passage should be inserted elsewhere.
Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

We believe it should be--
Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Jesus was not in the presence of God that day---not until after His resurrection. When He met Mary He told her not to cling to Him for He had not yet ascended to His Father. But to tell the disciples He would be going. Then when He met them next, they were allowed to touch Him.

Jesus does not lie. And as far as his declaration of turning "linguist"---the word Paradise (paradeisos) is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word meaning "garden of pleasure and fruits"---as in garden of Eden. It had nothing to so with "spirits"--The garden of pleasure was no longer on the earth--the tree of life and everything had been transferred to the 3rd heaven where God dwells. JS was definitely no linguist!

He is the way said:

Did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison before they were resurrected?:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

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20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

He was talking about when Noah was preaching to the disobedient while building the ark.

mmksparbud said:

By the way---neither the Hebrew, not Aramaic nor Greek have punctuation, capitalization is rare and there were no verses and chapters. So it is highly telling that even the punctuation of the KJV is in those passages copied from the KJV---and something even more telling. This is what JS supposedly said about Luke 24:43, and the word "paradise"

"I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, “This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” King James’ translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was— This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, 1 Peter, 3rd chapt., 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc.

* * * * *

I will now turn linguist. There are many things in the Bible which do not, as they now stand, accord with the revelations of the Holy Ghost to me.

I will criticize a little further. There has been much said about the word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it, describing it to be a burning lake of fire and brimstone. But what is hell? It is another modern term, and is taken from hades. I’ll hunt after hades as Pat did for the woodchuck.

Hades, the Greek, or Shaole, the Hebrew: these two significations mean a world of spirits. Hades, Shaole, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one: it is a world of spirits.
The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection. “I do not think so,” says one. If you will go to my house any time, I will take my lexicon and prove it to you.

The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers. “But,” says one, “I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.”

What! where all are huddled together— the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens. He knew a man that was caught up to the third heavens. Now, if the doctrine of the sectarian world, that there is but one heaven, is true, Paul, what do you tell that lie for, and say there are three? Jesus said unto His disciples, “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and I will come and receive you to myself, that where I am ye may be also.”

Any man may believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and be happy in that belief, and yet not obey his commandments, and at last be cut down for disobedience to the Lord’s righteous requirements. A man of God should be endowed with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, in order to teach and lead the people of God. The sectarian priests are blind, and they lead the blind, and they will all fall into the ditch together. They build with hay, wood, and stubble, on the old revelations, without the true priesthood or spirit of revelation. If I had time, I would dig into hell, hades, shaole, and tell what exists there."
(Documentary History of the Church 5:424–5:426;

He never got to finish the Luke 23:43 translation according to his believes. But he clearly does not understand that the problem with that passage is one of punctuation. We, and other denominations understand the "coma" inserted in the passage should be inserted elsewhere.
Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

We believe it should be--
Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Jesus was not in the presence of God that day---not until after His resurrection. When He met Mary He told her not to cling to Him for He had not yet ascended to His Father. But to tell the disciples He would be going. Then when He met them next, they were allowed to touch Him.

Jesus does not lie. And as far as his declaration of turning "linguist"---the word Paradise (paradeisos) is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word meaning "garden of pleasure and fruits"---as in garden of Eden. It had nothing to so with "spirits"--The garden of pleasure was no longer on the earth--the tree of life and everything had been transferred to the 3rd heaven where God dwells. JS was definitely no linguist!

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I know that "neither the Hebrew, not Aramaic nor Greek have punctuation, capitalization is rare and there were no verses and chapters." in the original manuscripts. However I believe that both Paradise and Hell are in the spirit world where the spirits are. Paradise is NOT heaven as many people believe. God does not live in Paradise, however Jesus went to the spirit world and preached to the spirits in spirit prison which had lived on earth, but had not received the gospel. That is why we have this scripture:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:5 - 6)

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

And also this scripture:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:19 - 20)

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These spirits have not been resurrected (spirit and body reunited) yet and are still waiting on the judgement and resurrection.

Although we have forgotten our pre-mortal existence, it is evident that we had one because it is not possible for our spirit person to return to a place it has never been.:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jesus Christ's spirit may have returned to God after His death as He said:

(New Testament | Luke 23:46)

46 ¶ And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

That being said He had not returned to His Father in His resurrected body when He said:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Just so you know that there are other ways to understand the Bible.