"God Won't Make You Choose Him" =/= "Unborn Babies Go To Heaven"?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

According to God's Word, within the assembly of Ekklesia the Ekklesia judge,;
those outside the assembly/ Ekklesia, God Judges.

Click to expand...

Jesus is the judge of all

John 5:22

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Why ask this question(s) ? It does not seem pertinent nor necessary to the topic/ goal/ objective, or is it ? Also, it does not seem to me that all the different answers from mankind for these questions matter at all ; if so, if it does matter, why does it matter !?

Click to expand...

it was in line with the question in the OP

God Won't Make You Choose Him" =/= "Unborn Babies Go To Heaven"?

I get that you don't want to talk about it ... that's fine ;o)

rnmomof7 said:

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Click to expand...

This one verse takes a lot of explaining, but it also has to be consistent with all these verse

A Child is Innocent

Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30

Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4

The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:18

God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15

"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)

Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"

Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17)

Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11 "Once alive" "sin killed me"

OK the verse in question:

Ps. 51: 5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Looking Deeper into Psalms 51:5

This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.

The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act.

Looking at David’s Mother

David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail)…..:

1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”

….and the father of David’s half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash: 2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man’s son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab’s mother.”

Look at Jesse

Exodus 34:7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

Matthew 1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse

Torah specifically forbids an Israelite to marry a Moabite convert, since this is the nation that cruelly refused the Jewish people passage through their land, or food and drink to purchase, when they wandered in the desert after being freed from Egypt.

Ruth is a Moabite and Jesse is a descendant less than four generations away.

There is lots of speculation among Jewish scholars but we know this about David from the Psalms:

King David to face such an intense ignominy, to be shunned by his own brothers in his home (“I have become a stranger to my brothers”), by the Torah sages who sat in judgment at the gates (“those who sit by the gate talk about me”) and by the drunkards on the street corners (“I am the taunt of drunkards”)? What had King David done to arouse such ire and contempt? And was there no one, at this time in his life, who would provide him with love, comfort and friendship?

The Psalms describe the life of a poor, despised and lowly individual, who lacks even a single friend to comfort him. It is the voice of a tormented soul who has experienced untold humiliation and disgrace. Through no apparent cause of his own, he is surrounded by enemies who wish to cut him down; even his own brothers are strangers to him, ravaging and reviling him.

David was a half brother to the others and his mother was previous married to a gentile and his father might have started having a problem with what he had done since he knew scripture.

You might look up what Jewish scholar say about Psalm 51 since they have a problem with it also, but all realize it is talking about the mother's sin at her conception being the problem and not David being a sinner.

eleos1954 said:

Jesus is the judge of all

John 5:22

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

Click to expand...

So you choose then to ignore the rest of Scripture, specifically that the Ekklesia are to judge within the assembly , AS WRITTEN . To judge righteously, with Yahuweh's Judgment (the same as Yahuweh's , as He Says, agreeing with His Judgment) .

yeshuaslavejeff said:

So you choose then to ignore the rest of Scripture, specifically that the Ekklesia are to judge within the assembly , AS WRITTEN . To judge righteously, with Yahuweh's Judgment (the same as Yahuweh's , as He Says, agreeing with His Judgment) .

Click to expand...

we were talking about salvation of babies .... only Christ judges unto salvation.

eleos1954 said:

we were talking about salvation of babies .... only Christ judges unto salvation.

Click to expand...

Did you post something that is not in Scripture then, yet is maybe contrary to Scripture, about salvation of babies ?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Did you post something that is not in Scripture then, yet is maybe contrary to Scripture, about salvation of babies ?

Click to expand...

As we all do ... made comments and also posted scripture.

Sin is transgression of the law .... how do ... babies transgress the law?

1 John 3:4

Good News Translation
Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.

AntiVillain said:

It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy (which I believe in, BTW).
But wait, doesn't that mean He's choosing for them? Doesn't it contradict that whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?

Click to expand...

Jesus Paid for the sins of the world , every sin is forgiven to man ( including Adam's sin ) which includes the sin of babies which inherited it from Adam.
Only sin that is not forgiven is rejection of Holy Spirit
Babies can't reject it because they can't have choice of rejecting it therefore by default they are covered by the cross blood of Christ and saved

People don't go to hell because they stole dvd movie online because it was paid for it at the cross.
There are still hundreds of bad preachers saying stuff like that , because they somehow don't understand that they contradict themselves and when confronted they get angry because they realise they were stupid and preached it all along and it's wrong
.
You can't say that Christ paid for every sin yet that you go to hell for certain sin because it would contradict that Christ paid for all sins (paid in full ).

So yea every person gets in their life oppurtinity of accepting or rejecting HS when they are mentally ready and can understand , also in best moment a revelation of Holy Spirit by various ways and either they reject him or accept him.


Rejection of HS is simply unbelief

Im sure God is merciful to children, he knows that they dont know any better yet.

Deuteronomy 1:39

Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.


However may depend on the parents faith, if the child is considered clean or unclean.

14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

AntiVillain said:

It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy

Click to expand...

The logical conclusion of this of course being that abortion is a good thing since every aborted fetus goes to heaven while if they survived many would not make it.

And what is this small perioid of missed life compared to eternal life with Him.

How much sense does that make ?

And the late abortion doctor Ulrich “George” Klopfer directly sent thousands and thousands of people straight to heaven ?

I bet many pastors do not manage that......

eleos1954 said:

As we all do ... made comments and also posted scripture.

Sin is transgression of the law .... how do ... babies transgress the law?

1 John 3:4

Good News Translation
Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law.

Click to expand...

Are you attempting to say something contrary to Scripture ?

(No, not "As we all do".... not everyone posts ideas or thoughts contrary to Scripture)

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Are you attempting to say something contrary to Scripture ?

(No, not "As we all do".... not everyone posts ideas or thoughts contrary to Scripture)

Click to expand...

go look at your own posts ... anything additional there other than scripture? Of course there is ... it's called conversation.

are you the authority on scripture? Nope Who is the authority on scripture? Jesus

Each of us post according to our understanding .... and that differs to one degree or another as everyone well knows ... and so ... we have conversation about differences.

What one accepts as truth is up to them and each are responsible for what they believe ... and I'm ok with that .... are you?

eleos1954 said:

go look at your own posts ... anything additional there other than scripture? Of course there is ... it's called conversation.

Click to expand...

Nothing contrary to Scripture. Thanks though!

eleos1954 said:

are you the authority on scripture? Nope Who is the authority on scripture? Jesus

Click to expand...

So who are we (Ekklesia) supposed to listen to ?

JESUS ! "My Sheep KNOW MY VOICE, and follow ME, they will not follow another"

Perfect!

eleos1954 said:

Each of us post according to our understanding .... and that differs to one degree or another as everyone well knows ... and so ... we have conversation about differences.

What one accepts as truth is up to them and each are responsible for what they believe ... and I'm ok with that .... are you?

Click to expand...

That's not what is seen in the Ekklesia , in the NT, or since then.
Living in union with Yahuweh and with Yahushua, The Son and The Father,
"echad", as written. (John 17 to start, then OT and NT several or many places) .

WE are supposed to post the understanding granted by the Father, as He Reveals. (as James also says - IF ANYONE lacks wisdom, let him ask God, WHO GIVES TO ALL MEN generously and without reproach)

God does not give false information to men. (except as He Pleases, or Permits? , perhaps ? ) ...

The understanding He Grants in Scripture to all the disciples is all in harmony.

So, truthfully, actually, it has been since then also. But men mess up.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

So who are we (Ekklesia) supposed to listen to ?

JESUS ! "My Sheep KNOW MY VOICE, and follow ME, they will not follow another"

Perfect!

Click to expand...

The called out ones follow Jesus

yeshuaslavejeff said:

That's not what is seen in the Ekklesia , in the NT, or since then.
Living in union with Yahuweh and with Yahushua, The Son and The Father,
"echad", as written. (John 17 to start, then OT and NT several or many places) .

WE are supposed to post the understanding granted by the Father, as He Reveals. (as James also says - IF ANYONE lacks wisdom, let him ask God, WHO GIVES TO ALL MEN generously and without reproach)

God does not give false information to men. (except as He Pleases, or Permits? , perhaps ? ) ...

The understanding He Grants in Scripture to all the disciples is all in harmony.

So, truthfully, actually, it has been since then also. But men mess up.

Click to expand...

and ... do you consider yourself the authority on the Word of God?

eleos1954 said:

The called out ones follow Jesus


and ... do you consider yourself the authority on the Word of God?

Click to expand...

Jesus is The Authority. (or/ with Yahuweh).

yeshuaslavejeff said:

That's not what is seen in the Ekklesia , in the NT, or since then.
Living in union with Yahuweh and with Yahushua, The Son and The Father,
"echad", as written. (John 17 to start, then OT and NT several or many places) .

WE are supposed to post the understanding granted by the Father, as He Reveals. (as James also says - IF ANYONE lacks wisdom, let him ask God, WHO GIVES TO ALL MEN generously and without reproach)

God does not give false information to men. (except as He Pleases, or Permits? , perhaps ? ) ...

The understanding He Grants in Scripture to all the disciples is all in harmony.

So, truthfully, actually, it has been since then also. But men mess up.

Click to expand...

WE are supposed to post the understanding granted by the Father, as He Reveals.

Click to expand...

Yes this is true ... also what is true, many differ on what that is about some things?

eleos1954 said:

Mark 7

20 He went on to say, “What comes out of a person is what makes them ‘unclean.’ 21 Evil thoughts come from the inside, from a person’s heart. So do sexual sins, stealing and murder. 22 Adultery, greed, hate and cheating come from a person’s heart too. So do desires that are not pure, and wanting what belongs to others. And so do telling lies about others and being proud and being foolish. 23 All these evil things come from inside a person and make them ‘unclean.’ ”

Any of these things found in babies?

Click to expand...

Why then was Jesus unique that He was born without sin?? Asking for a friend ...

rnmomof7 said:

Why then was Jesus unique that He was born without sin?? Asking for a friend ...

Click to expand...

Because Jesus was conceived through the Holy Spirit of God ... the "seed" of God ... and not the seed of a man. Born of a human woman (a virgin) yet Fully God and fully man.

Sin nature is inherited through the seed of Adam (a human man).

Matthew 1:18

Berean Study Bible
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with Child through the Holy Spirit.