Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul says he "WAS BEFORE" a persecutor. Do you think these words are present tense?
Is Paul still a persecutor of Christians even while he himself is a Christian?
Surely not. Paul was a persecutor of Christians before he became a Christian.

Think.

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I attached this first part of my reply to your comments because it is too long otherwise. "BNR" precede your comments; while "DJ" precede my replies.

BNR Thank you brother Jack that was a very beautiful interpretation. I appreciate you taking the time to give a very comprehensive verse by verse explanation. I rarely see a verse by verse explanation of John 15 when I ask people about their interpretation. There are a few things tho that I would kindly like to point out. The first thing would be in reference to the term “taketh away” (aírō G142) in verse 2. The Greek word aírō, when used in reference to something that is attached to something else, means to remove. Here’s the Strong’s Concordance definition. 1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish 2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear 3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease DJ I have no problem with the branch being taken away, but the question is, Is this parable about “salvation" or “bearing fruit"? It is my belief that the repeated use of “bear fruit", and even “bear much fruit" is a clear indicator. If as you say, this being “taken away" is being removed from Christ (salvation), then what purpose is the chastisement of Hebrews 12, or the purpose of the parable of the prodigal son? Why did Jesus, when speaking of people believing on, or in Him, state that they would be given “eternal life”? Specifically in John 10, Jesus says, “I give" (present tense) them “eternal life". Both the eternal life and the condemnation are clearly spoken of in the present tense. One of the examples I have used in the classroom when emphasizing the continuity of all Bible doctrine, was a map of the United States of America. In order for each state to fit into place, no state’s borders can be altered at all. If we change (for example the size of Texas, the four states of New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana would be affected. Therefore, since the Bible clearly presents salvation as being by grace through faith, it is therefore incorrect to bring any measure of works into the equation. BNR I would think that in this case this would be the appropriate definition since the branch is attached to the vine, not simply based on the definition itself, but I believe there are other implications in this message that would support this particular definition. The term taketh away doesn’t make much sense to me if The Father’s intention is to chastise these individuals in order to bring them back to repentance so that they will bear fruit. Taking them away from Christ while they are being punished doesn’t make sense since they cannot bear fruit unless they are attached to the vine which is Christ. Taking them away would render them incapable of bearing fruit. DJ 1) If the person is already NOT bearing fruit, the indication is that he isn’t then abiding either. If that person isn’t abiding, they are positioning themselves at a distance from Christ where bearing fruit is not possible. Hence, Jesus rightfully can move them away, to where He can chastise them. 2) Repentance to what? If the Father doesn’t chastise us to get us back on track … what IS the purpose of chastisement? BNR What I see in Jesus’ tone in this message are implications that even His faithful 11 apostles were capable of failing to abide in Him. The Greek word ménō (G3306) translated to “abide or remain” not only means to dwell but also can mean to stay, remain, or continue. To me since this message is pertaining primarily to those who are in Christ I believe the object of the message is to remain or continue to dwell in Christ. The examples given here are of those who are in Christ. I believe that we all have choices to make every second of our life. We can either choose to serve God or we can choose to serve satan at any given time. Furthermore I believe the scriptures have several indications that God has expectations of His children and failure to comply results in loss of salvation. DJ Unfortunately, it seems as though your definition includes the believer having the ability to 1) keep himself “in" Christ; or 2) remove himself from being “in Christ". The problem is, you are then saying that Christ Himself taught a merit based salvation, which directly opposed salvation being by grace. If we only have salvation as long as we put forth the effort, and achieve the result of abiding in Christ, and subsequently bearing fruit; that is not salvation by grace; it is a merit based salvation. BNR For now I will try to confine my explanation to John 15so as to not make this post too long. I think it’s easier to address matters individually rather than presenting a whole slew of examples that can get lost in the discussion. In verses 4 and 5 Jesus makes some pretty interesting implications. He starts out by telling His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him. We can infer that they are already abiding in Him at this time as Jesus states in verse 19 and His prayer to The Father just a short time later this same evening that “they are not of this world” in John 17:16. So this is an indication that what Jesus means by “abiding” in Him does not necessarily mean to dwell in Him but instead to remain or continue to dwell in Him. DJ There is no indication that this is referring to salvation. Once again, look at the parable of the prodigal son. Was he not “in” his father by still being his son. Yet, the son was not “abiding" with his father during the prodigal period. Even Hebrews 12 clearly teaches that we are still sons while the chastisement occurs. But if in rebellion, how can we be in an obedient type of abiding? Hebrews 12 supports the idea that our sonship is not merit based. BNR Next He says to them “the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.” John 15:4 NASB This implication indicates a possibility of them being capable of failing to abide in Him as does verse 5. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5 NASB You said in your explanation that part of our branch may not bear fruit. That’s not exactly what is stated here. Jesus never makes any reference to parts of a branch. His only references are pertaining to branches as a whole. His message is to bear fruit. So if part of the branch is bearing fruit then the branch is bearing fruit. When He says that branches are not bearing fruit that means the branch as a whole has produced no fruit at all. DJ 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John “every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring more fruit". The word “it" has the antecedent “branch". The verb “purgeth" [the verb that connects “he" (the subject) to “it" (the object) means to prune. When we prune a tree, or in this case a branch, we are cleaning off any unwanted parts in order to allow that branch to bear more fruit. BNR Now verse 6 has some really strong evidence and the definition of the original Greek word bállō, translated to cast, strengthens my point here that this must refer to a loss of salvation and not merely a temporal punishment. bállō (G906) Description: 1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids 1) to pour, pour into of rivers 2) to pour out 2) to put into, insert Grammar: a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω. The definition implies that this casting away is not merely a temporal punishment but a total disregard to one’s wellbeing. Jesus says in verse 6 “anyone who does not abide in Me”. The word “anyone” does not exclude even His 11 faithful apostles. Only by a preconceived notion can one infer that this cannot imply that believers can be cast away by The Father for failure to abide in Christ. Since this message is primarily directed towards believers who are in Christ this is a strong indication that believers can choose to turn away from their faith or to a false profession of faith thus resulting in being cast away to wither & burn. DJ The verse does not say the “man" is cast away to be burned; it says … 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John … “he is cast forth AS a branch" … Then it describes what men do with the branches. Again, if it is a requirement for man to abide ‘to remain saved', this is now a salvation that is merit based. The prodigal son spent his inheritance while NOT abiding with the gather, yet, at no point did the father ever not count him as his son. This parable is about bearing fruit, and if you refuse to abide in a proper relationship with Christ, he will remove you from your place of service, but there isn’t a single word here that speaks of loosing salvation. BNR If a person is not remaining or continuing in Christ then Christ will not remain in them and He will deny such a person before The Father. DJ Does verse 6 say that Jesus will deny them before the Father? BNR I think that you might agree that faith is not a mere confession of believing but more so a way of life. DJ Faith is the mechanism whereby we are saved. The word that needs to be understood is “belief". Simply saying, “I believe in Jesus" without a true belief has saved no one. That isn’t what eternal security is about. DJ When considering all that you have said concerning verse 6, how do you reconcile … ? 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews BNR Next verse 7 also has a strong indication that even Jesus’ faithful 11 we’re capable of failing to abide. Notice He begins by saying “If you abide in Me”. This implies that there is no guarantee of certainty that they will abide in Him otherwise verses 4 & 5 and verse 7 are referring to a situation that would be an impossibility. Then these verses that are explaining an impossible scenario and become irrelevant and useless. DJ Again this abiding is for ‘service', not salvation. This aligns with Hebrews 12 in that our sonship remains, but our service does not. How often do servants of God need to be removed from service in order to be chastened of God? BNR I’ll skip to verse 10 because I think we can both agree on the implications of verses 8 & 9. DJ No, I think verses 8 & 9 are important … 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. John Look at this parallel passage … 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew Both John 15 and Matthew 5 speak of bringing “glory" to the Father. You can say that bearing fruit isn’t “work", but look what Jesus said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven”. You see, works DO glorify the Father, but they are NOT in any way related to salvation. BNR “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.” John 15:10 NASB Verse 10 is a conditional statement indicating that God does have expectations of His children. He demands results otherwise He will disown us. DJ So your saying that the ‘father' in the parable of the ‘prodigal son' was a more compassionate father than our Heavenly Father? You say, “God does have expectations of His children. He demands results otherwise He will disown us”. 1) That is absolute work salvation. 2) It makes Jesus a liar. (He says He gives us “eternal life” … life that is only good as long as you are “faithful”, isn’t very “eternal". 3) It makes the Holy Spirit a liar. (Hebrews 13:5 “for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee”.)

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul says he "WAS BEFORE" a persecutor. Do you think these words are present tense?
Is Paul still a persecutor of Christians even while he himself is a Christian?
Surely not. Paul was a persecutor of Christians before he became a Christian.

Think.

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And now part 2 ...

BNR Before I provide other scriptures to support this statement let’s get to the question what are His expectations. What does God expect from His children? I believe Jesus answered this question when He was asked what is the greatest commandment. He replied “And He said to him, " ' YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ' YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."” Matthew 22:37-40 NASB Jesus reveals His expectation in John 15:12. “"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.” John 15:12 NASB DJ Expectations for children to honor parents is NOT to be equated with expectations to remain “children” of the parents. Did not King David 1) commit adultery; 2) commit murder; and 3) stay out of God's house until Nathan the prophet of God confronted him? Does not the Scripture tell us that David was a man that sought after God's own heart? Did God disown David? The nation of Israel are God's chosen people … Has God disowned them as well? BNR Love is at the very root of bearing fruit or doing good works because love is the very root of Christ. In almost everything Jesus taught at the very core was love. Take for example Matthew 25:31-46. What were the goats lacking that condemned them? “"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'” Matthew 25:41-43 NASB Notice all of these examples are the result of love and compassion. It wasn’t the lack of faith or lack of believing or even lack of works themselves but the lack of love that resulted in a lack of works or fruit. James 2:14-17 gives a similar example. DJ So in all this, salvation throughout the Scriptures, must be based on our works, not God's grace. Paul distinctly teaches in Romans that grace cannot be works, and works cannot be grace. BNR “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.” James 2:14-17 NASB Many believe that we are saved by faith alone. Paul said something interesting in 1 Cor 13:2 “If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Corinthians 13:2 NASB DJ This entire argument is based on the presupposition that salvation of the soul, and works of the flesh are joined together, for the PURPOSE of giving us a complete salvation. This is a false presupposition. Salvation of the soul is what God does for us; while works of the flesh are what we do for God, BECAUSE of what God has done for us, not to complete the work He has begun. 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews How can Jesus be the “finisher of our faith", if we are doing the work? BNR I think the problem is that many misunderstand what justification is. They confuse justification with salvation. We are justified by faith before we have done any good works. The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Just because we have been made right with God does not mean that we cannot be made wrong with Him afterwards. DJ I'm not sure if you noticed that “Dr.” in front of “Jack", but that Dr. is representative of a Doctorate of Theology in Pastoral Theology. I assure you, I have sat through several classes pertaining to justification, and salvation. Furthermore, I have also taught a few. In short, Justification is a legal term that is associated with a defense, in order to be cleared of charges brought against and individual in criminal justice. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans Notice: Our justification is 1) a free gift; and 2) obtained “by the obedience of one”. BNR Notice Paul’s words to the saints who are faithful to Christ in Ephesus in Ephesians 4. “Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity.” Ephesians 4:25-27 NASB Here I would like to inject Romans 6:15-16 because I think this makes a very valid point on this subject. “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?” Romans 6:15-16 NASB DJ You are now insinuating that I believe that I “should” sin. No, we need to submit to the power of the Holy Spirit to have power over sin. But that is not a requirement to be saved. That is a requirement to be of service to God, and thereby glorify Him. Furthermore, Paul is telling them not to live in their former manner. However, if you use this text as a reference for salvation, you are then saying people could be saved by simply obeying the law. BNR Paul said this to believers who are saved indicating that even believers who are saved are capable of serving satan resulting in death if they don’t repent. DJ I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the simple truth is, if we are not working under the leading, and power of the Holy Spirit, we are at least indirectly serving Satan, period. BNR Let’s continue Ephesians 4 and on into chapter 5 and continue Paul’s message to the saints who are faithful to Christ in Ephesus. “He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.” Ephesians 4:28-32 NASB Paul continues to emphasize the importance of refraining from sin and expressing love towards others. Even tho we are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption we are still capable of grieving the Holy Spirit. Now this next portion in chapter 5 is very interesting. Notice that he begins with the word “Therefore” indicating that he is reiterating on what he had previously said in chapter 4. “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 5:1-6 NASB DJ Paul's teaching here isn’t what believers must do to be saved. It was a rhetorical teaching. Paul is telling them that they need to put off the old things to grow in Christ, and glorify Him. In essence, Paul is saying, Why would you want do live like those headed for Hell? Take for example the church at Corinth. Paul clearly tells them, they are carnal, and NOT spiritual! Yet, he addressed them as … 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: 1 Corinthians

Bible Highlighter said:

Another example of present tense in grammar.

Rick could say,

"Many years ago, a man received a gospel tract that changed his life. He was on the path to destruction by his sin of alcoholism and drugs and he was transformed overnight by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ. He never again touched alcohol and or did drugs since knowing the Lord. I am a born again Christian."​

The words "I am a born again Christian" (is present tense) but they refer to his past event of when "he was transformed by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ" (past tense) in one of the previous sentences before.

So Rick is referring to his life experience in the past but he is using the "historical present" in grammar. For have you never heard a person say, "I am a born again Christian" and yet the words "born again" refers to a one time event in the past? In other words, Paul is saying a similar thing here in 1 Timothy 1:15 because the context determines this fact with verses 12-13, and verse 16. If things are as you say, then Paul would use the present tense verbs in verse 13, and in verse 16. Paul would say that I am still a persecutor, and Paul would say that he is still obtaining mercy today, etc. But Paul did not say that.

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That is NOT historical present tense in any way, shape, or form.

I was in the Marines for eight years. I then left the Marines to attend Bible College. I am now a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

NONE of that was "historical present tense"; not even the part where I said, "I am now a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ". It is in fact now a part of my history, and it was in fact given in the present tense at the time I wrote it. However, that which was spoken in the present tense, was NOT a reflection of a series of events presented in a narrative that was completely in reference to past events.

I specifically gave two past events, followed by a single present tense event.

I had a yellow car, then I had a grey car, and now I have a green car. It is historical, but I DID NOT have a green car in the past.

You need to educate yourself in grammar prior to makung such statements.

Bible Highlighter said:

My reply back to you should have been sufficient to show that you are not reading 1 Timothy 1:15 correctly. I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on something that is obvious to someone who can read basic English.

I believe you do not like what 1 Timothy 1:13 says, and so you are attempting to read 1 Timothy 1:15 in a way that ignores the context.

I am moving on because I already made my case on this verse. There is nothing more to say (that I have not already said before).

If you believe you can sin and still be saved by God's grace, there are tons of other verses in the Bible that condemn this kind of thinking (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 13:42-43, Matthew 25:31-46, John 3:20, John 12:48, 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 22:14-15). But you are free to believe as you wish. You may want to risk your soul believing in something that is more comforting that ignores many verses in the Bible, but I will not do that. My soul, and the souls of others is too important to play games with in trying to justify sin in some way on the behalf of GOD and His Kingdom.

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Please reread the article you yourself provided concerning "historical present tense".

gradyll said:

That is the word of God sir. I did summarize what was read in bold, but simply reading all those verses one by one, we must speak of the gospel in light of what the Bible says. It sounds like we are saved by works to me, personally speaking. But that contradicts a dozen verses about grace, and romans says directly if it is of works it is not of grace. So the next thing is salvic repentance. We are saved by faith, plus repentance. But that repentance cannot be a work. And that is my current viewpoint. It is really the only viewpoint that does not contradict more than a few verses. There are two or three verses that say we are directly saved by works, but that contradicts the dozen or so that say we are saved solely by faith alone, without repentance or works. So we must interpret salvation in light of the entire Bible. That is the role of soteriology. It's mans interpretation to what God is doing in salvation. But all of this debate aside. If someone simply read through the Bible and never read a commentary or had a class in soteriology, they could simply read how to be saved. So this debate is not really necessary. It's just that people come here first, before going to the Bible. And that is why I posted this thread, to correct that.

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Can you be more specific on ... ?

"So the next thing is salvic repentance. We are saved by faith, plus repentance" ...

BNR32FAN said:

The thief on the cross had a contrite heart and wasn’t able to do much as far as works. I would point out that He did rebuke the other criminals, confessed his guilt, pleaded for forgiveness, and proclaimed that Jesus is Lord. Salvation isn’t contingent on the works themselves but the heart’s humility and compassion, and of course believing in Christ.

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No offense ... but now you seem to be back peddling. Either salvation IS contingent on works, or salvation ISN'T contingent on works ... but it CANNOT be both!

BNR32FAN said:

What if we don’t do the works He has prepared for us?

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I may have gotten you and BibleHighlighter mixed up. I been kind of busy, and probably didn't get the names correct.

BNR32FAN said:

I think John 15 gives us a good idea.

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Actually, I think the following gives us an idea ...

3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians

BNR32FAN said:

Another thing is John 15 refutes God’s election because it refutes eternal security. John 15:2 says The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit. John 15:6 says anyone who does not abide (stay, remain, continue) in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Predestination cannot exist without eternal security.

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I'm sorry ... just because it is your OPINION that John 15 refutes eternal security, doesn't make it a fact. John 15 in NO WAY refutes eternal security.

Danthemailman said:

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

*So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no bearing of fruit. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Jesus did not save them nor sustain them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off.

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While the general idea of what you refer to is good, we must understand that this parable ISN'T about salvation at all, it is referring to abiding in Christ as a matter of staying in fellowship, not being in Christ for justification. Huge difference!

Guojing said:

From a dispensationalist background, I must say it has been very educational reading both your perspectives.

You take the scripture literally

Dan is trying to reconcile Paul with James and what Jesus stated in the flesh in the 4 gospels.

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I in no way want to derail this thread, but as a Dispensationalist, do you subscribe to "faith plus obedience to the law for OT saints as Schofield taught? (Just a matter of curiosity)

gradyll said:

Sir if you have not followed any of God's commands fully or perfectly, how can you be saved?

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Okay. First, I cannot stress enough the importance to you in that a person cannot be saved without God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (i.e. By accepting Jesus as their Savior, and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on their behalf, and in seeking forgiveness of their sins with Him by way of prayer). That is the entrance gate to salvation, and that is the foundation upon which we stand. For if a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, but they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13). We also continue to trust in Jesus as our Savior through out our lives. Faith (Belief) in Christ is the foundation of our faith. But this kind of faith proves itself true by works of faith. Without works of faith, one merely has an empty profession in Christ (Whereby they are not living a life that aligns with what they believe).

Second, show me a Bible verse that says that you have to follow ALL of God's laws perfectly to be saved. You will not find it. See, this is where you drop the ball, my friend. You do not understand that not all of God's commands are tied with punishment in the Lake of Fire for disobeying them. Granted, I am not saying for you or anyone to disobey any of God's smallest commands, but my point is that not all sin leads to death. For 1 John 5:17 says there is a "sin not unto death." Paul was not condemned when he disobeyed the Spirit's command to not to go to Jerusalem. Water baptism is not a command that leads to spiritual death (1 Peter 3:21). Jesus even said that there are degrees of sin. For Jesus said there is a greater sin (John 19:11). Jesus said the Pharisees ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).

You said:

You have said repeatedly that you must follow God's commands to be saved.

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Yes. Those commands by GOD in the New Testament (primarily) (Note: Not the ceremonial laws from the Old Testament like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, for these things have been nailed to the cross - See Colossians 2:14-17, Galatians 5:2, and Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

We are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. Paul preached against going back to the Old Law or the 613 laws given to Israel and Paul preached against the false Pharisee religion that denied God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (or the Messiah). The false Pharisee religion made salvation all about works alone and it de-emphasized God's grace and or nullified it completely. In essence, they taught true Works Alone Salvationism (Which is why Paul spoke in the way that he did in Romans, Galatians, Titus, and Ephesians). Paul was NOT speaking against the process of Sanctification that takes place AFTER being saved by God's grace.

So what you will not find in the writings of Paul is him attacking Sanctification (Holy living, and or good works of the Spirit) done through the believer for salvation after a person is saved by God's grace. Paul is attacking "Works Alone Salvationism" that attempts to deny the Justification Process in coming to Jesus for the first time, and or trying to go back to the false Pharisee religion that made salvation about being justified by the Law Alone (without God's grace) via by circumcision as the basis for one's salvation and or entrance gate into being a part of God's kingdom. To be justified by circumcision means one is trying to be saved by the Torah alone and not by God's grace.

The Torah or the 613 laws of Moses is not a set of commands that is no longer in effect as a contract anymore as a whole. Yes, certain laws have been repeated in the New Covenant, or New Contract, but the New Testament is what we primarily look to in order to follow and obey the Lord.

Believers have to meet the bare minimum level requirement of holiness as defined in the New Testament or New Covenant. Any command that is broken (sin) that leads to the mention of spiritual death, and or condemnation in the afterlife must be obeyed in order to maintain God's saving grace (after one has been saved by His grace). A person cannot obey GOD without first being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. There are commands that the Bible mentions that are not tied with spiritual death or condemnation that do not appear to be a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor. While I am not encouraging any believer to make light of even God's smallest commands, I believe that we can only be condemned by those sins that God specifically mentions within His Word. For in John 12:48, Jesus says that if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day.

You said:

So I am just trying to understand your view. I really don't understand how you can believe in both grace and works. And I don't think the Bible understands that perspective either.

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Again, God's grace is in harmony with good works and or holy living. Titus 2:11-12 says the Grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason why Christ died for us was as to sanctify and wash us with the water of the Word (Scripture) so as that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and blameless. Romans 5:21 says that grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (i.e. righteous living). For 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous. In fact, we are told not to be deceived about that fact within 1 John 3:7. Yet, I hear the cry from the Belief Alone Only camp that says that we are only made righteous by believing in the finished work of Christ and it is in nothing that they do. Little do they realize their belief.... does not line up with Scripture (i.e. 1 John 3:7).

You said:

Can you point to a verse that specifically says we are saved by both grace and works?

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2 Thessalonians 2:13 says,
"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

This verse says that GOD has chosen us to salvation by two things.


Belief in the truth is believing in Jesus because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). The words "Sanctification of the Spirit" is in relation to progressive work in a believer's life to help them to live holy in this life if we are to go by the immediate context.

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).


(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

But just having good works is not enough. You have to live holy and you cannot justify grievous sin (like lying, hating, lusting, etc.) and or abide within it in some way. For Jesus says to those believers in Matthew 7:21 who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness. So they had good works (or so they thought), but they also worked sin and or iniquity, too. This is why Jesus says for them to depart from Him. For Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

See, the problem I have in what you believe is that you do not accept the whole counsel of God's Word. For example: In the Google Document you gave before on Lordship Salvation had a commentary on those verses. I don't know if you wrote the commentary or somebody else did. But your posting of the Google Document means you agree with the commentary. This is problematic at best because the commentary is simply a denial of what those verses plainly say. The commentator offered no alternative rational explanation to those verses but they simply mocked those verses in what they said (in the fact that they propose that no person can obey such instructions when there is no ending thought or conclusion saying that this is so).

You said:

I doubt you can especially when romans 11:6A specifically says "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works" and goes on to say "it is no longer of grace." if it is of works.

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A man who has a blindfold on and they are feeling the trunk of an elephant and they say that the elephant is a like a fire hose and they do not realize that there is more to the elephant. Paul here is referring to only one aspect or part of salvation (Which is the Justification Process). The Justification Process is without works and it is founded on God's grace. We are saved FIRST by God's grace through faith in Christ and it is not in anything that we did within the Justification Process. Sanctification Process is an entirely different process that happens AFTER we are saved by Justification. But if you were to take all of Paul's words into consideration, this grace is not a license for immorality. Paul asks the question: Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's reply to that question is: "God forbid." Paul then mentions how we are either slaves to sin or we are slaves to righteousness in Romans 6. In Romans 8:13 Paul says that if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally). Paul says that we can deny God by a lack of works in Titus 1:16. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

You said:

Because romans 11:6 specifically says we are not saved by both.

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"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6).

This is in context or view of "Works ALONE Salvationism."
Paul is referring to Israel in Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11.
Most commentators will tell you this fact, and or it is obvious if you re-read the chapters several times and get a feel for them. For they mention and refer to Israel, and the hope that they may be saved. So what is Israel's problem? They reject the Messiah or God's grace. At the time, the Pharisees believed that they could be saved by works alone or by following the Torah Law alone without God's grace. Paul was focused on Israel meeting the requirement of the Justification Process in light of their false belief in Works Alone Salvationism. The Justification Process is God's grace without works, which is in direct opposition to their trying to save themselves by works alone. Paul is not referring to the Sanctification Process AFTER we are saved by God's grace, and he does not bring up the Sanctification Process yet because he does not want to confuse them. For they first need to be saved by God's grace through faith without works before they can enter the Sanctification Process. Paul mentions Sanctification as being necessary for salvation elsewhere (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:13).

But you think Paul is referring to the whole life of the believer here, and he is not. Is Paul talking about Glorification verses here? We both agree on those verses on Glorification because those verses talk about how God saves us by taking us home and in bring us into His Kingdom and in one day giving us a new body that is eternal. A person could make the case that Glorification is false because we are only saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. But that would be silly, right? Because that is a different process of salvation.

You said:

View attachment 265959

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The attachment is not working for me to see it. I think you have the file set on private (Whereby only you and or others you select can see it).

In either case, may the Lord's love shine upon you today (even if we disagree strongly on this topic still).

Peace, and blessings to you in the Lord, in the name of Jesus.

Dr. Jack said:

Actually, I think the following gives us an idea ...

3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians

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In 1 Cor 3:11-15 Paul is talking about those who are building on the foundation of Christ. They are doing works. John 15 is referring to an absence of works.

Dr. Jack said:

No offense ... but now you seem to be back peddling. Either salvation IS contingent on works, or salvation ISN'T contingent on works ... but it CANNOT be both!

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It’s contingent on abide in Christ which if given the opportunity will bear fruit. If we abide in Christ His love will work in us brother. The thief on the cross did do what little he could given his situation. He rebuked the others who were mocking Jesus, he confessed his guilt and asked for forgiveness, and he acknowledged that Jesus is the Messiah. I’m confident that if he had been given the opportunity he would’ve produced more fruit because the state of his heart. He humbled himself and trusted in Christ for salvation.

Dr. Jack said:

I'm sorry ... just because it is your OPINION that John 15 refutes eternal security, doesn't make it a fact. John 15 in NO WAY refutes eternal security.

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Did you read my reply in post 253? Can you please point out where you believe that I am in error friend?

Dr. Jack said:

I in no way want to derail this thread, but as a Dispensationalist, do you subscribe to "faith plus obedience to the law for OT saints as Schofield taught? (Just a matter of curiosity)

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From Hebrews 11, salvation was always by grace thru faith. But without Jesus's death on the cross during the OT, those OT saints could not have placed their faith in Jesus then. What they could do is to put their faith in what God revealed to them during that time.

Genesis 4:7 is the first mention of how God accepts anyone. God told Cain he would have been accepted, like Abel, if he did well, which means offering the correct animal sacrifice as instructed. As Hebrews 11 stated, Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice, and God saw that as him putting his faith in what God revealed to both Cain and Abel.

Later on, when the Law was given to Moses, during the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.

Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.

Later on, when Jesus came in the flesh, salvation is now "Repent and be baptized for the remission. of sins," what will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter preached repentance and baptism for remission not one of their hearers would have interpreted their words to mean: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."

Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were condemned for their unbelief:

"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZIED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).

But when God says, "BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21); "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5); "Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24); "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7); "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5); "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9) -

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Hope this clarifies.

BNR32FAN said:

Did you read my reply in post 253? Can you please point out where you believe that I am in error friend?

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Posts 322 & 323

Guojing said:

From Hebrews 11, salvation was always by grace thru faith. But without Jesus's death on the cross during the OT, those OT saints could not have placed their faith in Jesus then. What they could do is to put their faith in what God revealed to them during that time.

Genesis 4:7 is the first mention of how God accepts anyone. God told Cain he would have been accepted, like Abel, if he did well, which means offering the correct animal sacrifice as instructed. As Hebrews 11 stated, Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice, and God saw that as him putting his faith in what God revealed to both Cain and Abel.

Later on, when the Law was given to Moses, during the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.

Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.

Later on, when Jesus came in the flesh, salvation is now "Repent and be baptized for the remission. of sins," what will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter preached repentance and baptism for remission not one of their hearers would have interpreted their words to mean: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."

Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were condemned for their unbelief:

"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZIED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).

But when God says, "BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21); "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5); "Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24); "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7); "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5); "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9) -

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Hope this clarifies.

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I understand progressive knowledge, but have you considered that ...

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John

was a reference to ...

22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Genesis

I think those OT saints that sought after God knew more than we give them credit. There are many OT references that point to the crucifixion of the Messiah.

Dr. Jack said:

I understand progressive knowledge, but have you considered that ...

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John

was a reference to ...

22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Genesis

I think those OT saints that sought after God knew more than we give them credit. There are many OT references that point to the crucifixion of the Messiah.

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I can certainly understand the appeal of the doctrine “OT people were looking forward to the cross” among many Christians.

To me, enough evidence is seen that the Jews did not understand why Jesus had to die for their sins. Not only the 12 not understood it when Jesus told them privately, peter even rebuked Jesus and was so disillusioned about Jesus impending death that he denied he ever knew Jesus and had to be restored specially by the resurrected Christ.

To believe that they understood Isaiah 53 during that time would take a lot of “reading into scripture.”

I think 1 Peter 1:10-12 may shed some light into this, the NLT version

10 This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. 11 They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

12 They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.

Thus, when the prophet Isaiah made his famous prophecy about how our Lord Jesus would be crucified on the cross, taking our sin, he also had no idea that it was supposed to be a victory. It was hidden from him, just as the divine exchange was hidden from the 12 disciples until Jesus revealed it to Paul alone. Even the angels had no idea the cross was part of the wonderful plan of God.

I believed Satan was shocked that what he thought was his greatest victory, leading the Jews to nail Jesus on the cross, turned out to be his greatest defeat. So that is one key reason why the truth of the cross was hidden from everyone.

But if one want to hold on to the belief that ot people were looking forward to the cross, it’s perfectly understandable.