LDS Mormon Doctrine Says You Can be Both Saved and Lost

Dale · Oct 30, 2019

He is the way said:
John Gill's definition of the third heaven is very different than that of Howard Pittman. Like Paul's account, Howard Pittman was actually there and seen where the third heaven was at. I have Howard Pittman's book Placebo.

He is the way said:
As far as I know Howard Pittman has not joined The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. He certainly was not a member when he wrote the book back in 1999. He had been a Baptist minister for 35 years when he had his near death experience on August 3, 1979. His message has been delivered on the Christian Broadcasting Network, the Christian Communications Network, the Trinity Broadcasting Network, numerous radio stations, church services, and public appearances. According to his book his main body trunk artery ruptured and at some point in the ensuing hours, he suffered physical death. His spirit was lifted from his body by his guardian angels and taken to the second heaven where he saw many startling things. He appeared before our Lord in the Third Heaven where he pleaded for an extension of his physical life.

You apparently believe that Howard Pittman went to heaven in a near death experience. Since Pittman isn't LDS, it is clear that you are adding a layer of interpretation to what Pittman says about this experience. Since Pittman doesn't believe in a First Heaven, a Second Heaven and a Third or Celestial Heaven, you prefer to believe that he saw the Celestial Heaven.

From my readings of Mormon authors, I know that they tend to believe in "spiritism" as one of them called it. An LDS woman wrote a book called Daughter of Zion. I'm doing this from memory, but I believe she had a dream about her father in the hereafter, which she took literally. In another book by an LDS woman, she said that she had a professor at BYU who claimed to have visited with spirits in the spirit world.

I can't put too much stock in this. There are mediums who claim to channel Jesus who say that he denied his Divinity, for instance. We would be left nowhere if we believed such sources.

I also have dreamed about family members who have passed away, but the dream probably isn't a spirit world experience, but the product of my memories. I have also dreamed about Jesus Christ, but that probably isn't a revelation from heaven.

Dale · Oct 31, 2019

drstevej said:
So is Howard Pittman a new Mormon Heavenly Mother: mentioned when convenient but ignored otherwise?

You are certainly right that the Mormon scheme of things requires a Heavenly Mother but they sure don't talk much about her.

He is the way · Oct 31, 2019

Dale said:
You apparently believe that Howard Pittman went to heaven in a near death experience. Since Pittman isn't LDS, it is clear that you are adding a layer of interpretation to what Pittman says about this experience. Since Pittman doesn't believe in a First Heaven, a Second Heaven and a Third or Celestial Heaven, you prefer to believe that he saw the Celestial Heaven.

From my readings of Mormon authors, I know that they tend to believe in "spiritism" as one of them called it. An LDS woman wrote a book called Daughter of Zion. I'm doing this from memory, but I believe she had a dream about her father in the hereafter, which she took literally. In another book by an LDS woman, she said that she had a professor at BYU who claimed to have visited with spirits in the spirit world.

I can't put too much stock in this. There are mediums who claim to channel Jesus who say that he denied his Divinity, for instance. We would be left nowhere if we believed such sources.

I also have dreamed about family members who have passed away, but the dream probably isn't a spirit world experience, but the product of my memories. I have also dreamed about Jesus Christ, but that probably isn't a revelation from heaven.

Paul also talks about a near death experience when he said:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 5)

IT is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Each of us decides who are what we will believe. Some will chose to believe John Gill who has his opinion about the third heaven, others will chose to believe someone else. But the important thing is to serve God.

He is the way · Oct 31, 2019

Dale said:
You are certainly right that the Mormon scheme of things requires a Heavenly Mother but they sure don't talk much about her.

God, in His wisdom, has not shared much about her.

Dale · Oct 31, 2019

He is the way said:
Paul also talks about a near death experience when he said:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 5)

IT is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Each of us decides who are what we will believe. Some will chose to believe John Gill who has his opinion about the third heaven, others will chose to believe someone else. But the important thing is to serve God.

Paul's experience on the road to Damascus wasn't a near death experience. It was a Divine revelation given by God to someone selected to be an Apostle.

You refer to John Gill having an "opinion." The reason I check his interpretation is that he was intimately familiar with ancient manuscripts and traditions. He is someone who knows when the Greek version of the Gospel differs from the Arabic version, for instance. Gill's explanation of the airy heaven, stary heaven and the Realm of Angels is based on Jewish tradition. This is how the Rabbis saw it in New Testament times and this is a view that Paul was second nature to Paul, immersed in Jewish thinking until the moment of his conversion.

Dale · Oct 31, 2019

He is the way said:
God, in His wisdom, has not shared much about her.

Surely the Heavenly Mother would be an excellent example for all women. We must scratch our heads and wonder why the Heavenly Father doesn't tell us more about her.

BigDaddy4 · Oct 31, 2019

He is the way said:
God, in His wisdom, has not shared much about her.

God, in reality, is not married.

BigDaddy4 · Oct 31, 2019

Dale said:
Surely the Heavenly Mother would be an excellent example for all women. We must scratch our heads and wonder why the Heavenly Father doesn't tell us more about her.

Curious, isn't it, that Proverbs 31 is the scriptural example for an excellent wife, yet silence from Heavenly Mother on the topic? Or any topic, for that matter. It's almost as if.... she doesn't exist. :scratch:

Peter1000 · Nov 1, 2019

Dale said:
Surely the Heavenly Mother would be an excellent example for all women. We must scratch our heads and wonder why the Heavenly Father doesn't tell us more about her.

If she were portrayed properly, she would be the ultimate example for all women.

If not portrayed properly, she would become no better than astarte, or aphrodite, 2 very fertile goddesses of ancient cultures with a overall sexual nature with evil undertones, always accompanied by institutional prostitution as the center of the cult practice.

Heavenly Father does not want his wife to be subject to this kind of worship, therefore he protects her from such debauchery.

In her glory, she is present, and very important to the heavenly family. There would not be a heavenly family without her. When was there ever a son, without a mother.

He is the way · Nov 1, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
God, in reality, is not married.

And you have proof of this?

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:11)

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

BigDaddy4 · Nov 1, 2019

He is the way said:
And you have proof of this?

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:11)

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Reality needs no proof. God said "I AM", not "we are". Mormonism distorts reality.

Peter1000 · Nov 1, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Reality needs no proof. God said "I AM", not "we are". Mormonism distorts reality.

God also said, "let us" make man and woman in "our image". God has the image of a man, what image does woman have? One answer is that "let us" included a woman.

Dale · Nov 1, 2019

Peter1000 said:
God also said, "let us" make man and woman in "our image". God has the image of a man, what image does woman have? One answer is that "let us" included a woman.

When God spoke of creating humans in "our image" he was talking about their souls, not their bodies. Men and women were created with souls capable of reasoning and making moral choices.

He is the way · Nov 1, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Reality needs no proof. God said "I AM", not "we are". Mormonism distorts reality.

Just as I knew all along, people make comments that are not facts and are without any verifiable documentation.

Dale · Nov 2, 2019

It looks like there will be bachelors and old maids even among those who make it to the Celestial Kingdom. So these people cannot take part in the glories of eternal marriage, propagating new souls and populating new worlds. I'm not sure why those who arrive in the Celestial Kingdom in the single state can't get married after they get there but Joseph Smith says that they can't.

<< Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." They will live "separately and singly" in an unmarried state "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." (D. & C. 132:16-17.) >>
McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, under Salvation, p. 471.

McConkie tells us that those who arrive in the Celestial Kingdom in the single state will be segregated and be a servant class for those who are married, destined for Exaltation.

He is the way · Nov 2, 2019

Dale said:
It looks like there will be bachelors and old maids even among those who make it to the Celestial Kingdom. So these people cannot take part in the glories of eternal marriage, propagating new souls and populating new worlds. I'm not sure why those who arrive in the Celestial Kingdom in the single state can't get married after they get there but Joseph Smith says that they can't.

<< Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." They will live "separately and singly" in an unmarried state "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." (D. & C. 132:16-17.) >>
McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, under Salvation, p. 471.

McConkie tells us that those who arrive in the Celestial Kingdom in the single state will be segregated and be a servant class for those who are married, destined for Exaltation.

Don't most if not all Christians believe that everyone on earth will live singly and separately after death and become ministering servants to God?

mmksparbud · Nov 2, 2019

He is the way said:
Don't most if not all Christians believe that everyone on earth will live singly and separately after death and become ministering servants to God?

Jesus says there is no marriage nor giving in marriage after the resurrection. It doesn't say we will not be with anyone---we will all be together, one family all of us married to God, if both spouses were saved, they will still be together---it just means there is no sex. We will be as the angels who do not procreate. There will be something else given to us for God does not withhold anything from us without replacing it with something better. What that is we have no idea but the reason for this earth was to be filled and populated, with all the saved and all the children that will be saved---that will be accomplished. It in no way means we'll be all alone and lonely---we have God, Jesus the Holy Spirit and every one of us will be together for eternity. Nothing says we will be spirits. We will have glorified bodies, just like Christ's glorified body, and we will eat and drink and do all sorts of things. We can not imagine what we will be or do.

Dale · Nov 2, 2019

He is the way said:
Don't most if not all Christians believe that everyone on earth will live singly and separately after death and become ministering servants to God?

All Christians are servants of God in this life and in the next.
It is something else entirely to say that Christians who are not completely top-notch will be eternal servants to those who surpass them in obedience. It contradicts the notion of grace, but grace isn't something Mormons put a lot of emphasis on.

Dale · Nov 2, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Jesus says there is no marriage nor giving in marriage after the resurrection. It doesn't say we will not be with anyone---we will all be together, one family all of us married to God, if both spouses were saved, they will still be together---it just means there is no sex. We will be as the angels who do not procreate. There will be something else given to us for God does not withhold anything from us without replacing it with something better. What that is we have no idea but the reason for this earth was to be filled and populated, with all the saved and all the children that will be saved---that will be accomplished. It in no way means we'll be all alone and lonely---we have God, Jesus the Holy Spirit and every one of us will be together for eternity. Nothing says we will be spirits. We will have glorified bodies, just like Christ's glorified body, and we will eat and drink and do all sorts of things. We can not imagine what we will be or do.

This is similar to what I was taught as a child. I was told that in heaven we will have bodies but no one knows what kind of bodies. I wasn't told that you will be resurrected and have the same body that you have now. I was told that God would provide the kind of body that we need in heaven.

mmksparbud · Nov 2, 2019

Dale said:
This is similar to what I was taught as a child. I was told that in heaven we will have bodies but no one knows what kind of bodies. I wasn't told that you will be resurrected and have the same body that you have now. I was told that God would provide the kind of body that we need in heaven.

It won't be the very same body---we will all be changed--from mortal to immortal, yet we will still be known. As Jesus was known and as He was able to eat and drink we will have the marriage supper with Him. We share in His humanity, never in His divinity.
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

LDS Mormon Doctrine Says You Can be Both Saved and Lost

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