[Catholics Only] Excellent Article from Eric Sammons - Is Francis Pope?

Gnarwhal · Oct 30, 2019

I caught Sammons tweet where he said this may be the "most important article I've ever written". Reading through it was extremely edifying, a little hard to swallow, but a thoroughly good read. Check it out:

It’s hard to imagine the Catholic Church being in worse shape than it currently is. We have a colossal and ongoing sex abuse scandal among the clergy and hierarchy that continues endlessly like some demonic global Chinese water torture. Due primarily to this scandal, the Church has lost all its moral authority in the world. Further, decades of cozying up to the culture has led to massive defections from the Church, as people no longer see her as an escape from our deadly culture, but instead as a religious blessing upon it. And then there’s Pope Francis.

Pope Francis. Nearly from day one he has been a source of scandal to the faithful. From “Who am I to judge?” to denigrating big families for “breeding like rabbits” to encouraging acceptance of adultery by essentially blessing the non-Catholic paradigm of “remarriage after divorce,” he has consistently been at odds with the most basic Catholic doctrines. And now we have the Amazon Synod and the infamous “Pachamama” idols. Even with the absolute bestreading of the situation — that the pope is just taking his love of diversity too far — he has scandalized millions with his laissez-faire attitude toward idolatry.

Is Francis the Pope? - OnePeterFive

bèlla · Oct 30, 2019

Greetings,

I was raised Catholic and benefited greatly from the instruction and influence the priests provided.

I’m sorry for the spiritual angst and uncertainty many are experiencing because of the church’s leadership. It should be a haven for nourishment and growth.

It is my hope that the Lord will restore their peace, calm their hearts, and draw them to Himself.

~Bella

anna ~ grace · Oct 30, 2019

This is an excellent article. Thank you, [Edit: Fenwick]. Definitely worth reading.

Michie · Oct 30, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
This is an excellent article. Thank you, Michie. Definitely worth reading.

You can thank Fenwick for this one!

anna ~ grace · Oct 30, 2019

Michie said:
You can thank Fenwick for this one!

Lol, shoot! Sorry Fenwick! Sorry Michie!

Thank you, Fenwick. *thumbs up* Good article. Sound.

HardHead · Oct 31, 2019

The article says this:

"So what does Christ’s promise to Peter entail? Vatican I makes that clear: the Church — through the pope — cannot officially teach error. When a pope declares something ex cathedra, he is infallible in his teaching. "

My understanding is that the Pope is infallible if and only if he does not disagree with the Magisterium, or more loosely speaking, if he is outside of tradition and scripture, if he goes against what past Popes taught, then he is not infallible. Is this the case? Please let me know.

If it is the case, then there must be a Cardinal who has a department that he is heading that acts to check and verify such things as Papal pronouncements and church teaching in general (i.e. Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine?).

I'm not trying to be glib, but this is what it boils down to, does it not? If there is reason to have concern, would not the higher church officials have raised these concerns as such in some official way by now? By this I mean not personal opinion of certain Cardinals/Bishops, but official, collective church opinion.

What is the status of this relative to the official stand? Does anyone know?

Bob Crowley · Nov 1, 2019

The term "ex cathedra" means "from the chair", and as one priest put it, means the Pope is speaking on a matter of faith and morals that applies to the whole church, and as such is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit as he does so. As he also put it, if the Pope was personally "infallible" he could give you a tip for next Saturday's horse races and it would have to win.

It is used very, very sparingly, and if the following paragraph from a Wikipedia article is correct, there has only been ONE "ex cathedra" statement since Vatican I, in nearly 150 years, and that has to do with the Assumption of Mary, which means all Catholics are obliged to accept that dogmatic statement.

Papal infallibility - Wikipedia

The doctrine of infallibility relies on one of the cornerstones of Catholic dogma: that of Petrine supremacy of the pope, and his authority as the ruling agent who decides what are accepted as formal beliefs in the Roman Catholic Church.[4] The use of this power is referred to as speaking ex cathedra.[5] The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith.[6] Prior to the solemn definition of 1870, there were other decrees which fit the definition of ex cathedra, for example, Pope Boniface VIII in the bull Unam Sanctam of 1302,[7][8][9] and Pope Pius IX in the Papal constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 1854.[10][11]

HardHead · Nov 1, 2019

Bob Crowley said:
The term "ex cathedra" means "from the chair",

I know what that means. My point is that the ex cathdera pronouncements can't be infallible if they contradict the Magisterium or the scriptures, at least from what I know. Is this correct?

Bob Crowley · Nov 1, 2019

Which ex-cathedra pronouncements are you indicating contradict the Scriptures or the Magisterium of the Church?

And we also need to be clear just what is meant by Magisterium of the Church. The following link gives some background.

Catholic Essentials - The Magisterium

The following paragraph was lifted from that link -

The Magisterium of the Catholic Church

Defined as "the Church's divinely appointed authority to teach the truths of religion". In other words, Our Lord gave His Church the authority to teach the faithful about what is expected of them, and that is what the Church has done consistently from the start.

It would be a contradiction in terms for a "ex-cathedra" pronouncement to contradict the church's magisterium, since an ex-cathedra teaching is in itself an example of the "solemn magisterium" of the church, as shown in this paragraph lifted from the same article.

Examples of the Solemn Magisterium of the Church (also called "ex cathedra teaching"):

The decisions made during the General Councils of the Catholic Church.

Papal encyclicals on "The Immaculate Conception" (1849) and "Defining the Dogma of the Assumption" (1950)

HardHead · Nov 1, 2019

Bob Crowley said:
Which ex-cathedra pronouncements are you indicating contradict the Scriptures or the Magisterium of the Church?

No. I'm saying the opposite. Anything that is ex cathedra must be in line with the scriptures, the church, and tradition.

My point is that if there is any problem with the pope's teachings as some seem to be indicating, then the church should catch that and deal with it accordingly.

Because of this, I'm not really worried about anything the pope has to say.

Bob Crowley · Nov 2, 2019

My personal view is that the controversy about Francis is the usual conservative / liberal bun fight that goes on in Catholic circles. You get the same thing in Protestant circles.

When Benedict was Pope, it seemed to me there was the opposite issue - he wasn't liberal enough in the eyes of the liberals.

So I just basically ignore it. I suppose being ex-Protestant means that I don't get too hung up on what the Papacy might be doing. The church is more than the Pope, or the Cardinals, or even the Bishops.

At the end of the day, there's always the common sense of the laity, despite whatever might be happening in the Vatican.

St Sebastian · Nov 2, 2019

Bob Crowley said:
My personal view is that the controversy about Francis is the usual conservative / liberal bun fight that goes on in Catholic circles. You get the same thing in Protestant circles.

This.

Bob Crowley said:
The church is more than the Pope, or the Cardinals, or even the Bishops.

And this.

HardHead · Nov 20, 2019

Bob Crowley said:
When Benedict was Pope, it seemed to me there was the opposite issue - he wasn't liberal enough in the eyes of the liberals.

I agree. This back-and-forth is the case it seems.

The way I see it is that the church will find a middle ground for itself according to its needs. The consensus tradition brings will keep things correct so to speak in spite of any personal influence a particular pope may have one way or the other. The church is stronger than any one person.

I am not too worried about the recent stores I see regarding a potential schism. However, the stories about the Amazon synod are just plain strange in my view. I have no idea if that is pope-influenced or not but its not something I personally could support.

That stuff i can't really grasp regarding the goddess cults and related things and the apparent Vatican support for it. It makes no sense, to me at least. Even so, as strange as it is, I think that will be figured out as well in due time.

Beloved2018 · Nov 21, 2019

Questions:
So Francis' universal jurisdiction is still intact. 1. What does this mean for the bishops he's demoted Ie did Christ will that? 2. What is the status of the Pan-Amazonian Synod?

Fenwick said:
I caught Sammons tweet where he said this may be the "most important article I've ever written". Reading through it was extremely edifying, a little hard to swallow, but a thoroughly good read. Check it out:

It’s hard to imagine the Catholic Church being in worse shape than it currently is. We have a colossal and ongoing sex abuse scandal among the clergy and hierarchy that continues endlessly like some demonic global Chinese water torture. Due primarily to this scandal, the Church has lost all its moral authority in the world. Further, decades of cozying up to the culture has led to massive defections from the Church, as people no longer see her as an escape from our deadly culture, but instead as a religious blessing upon it. And then there’s Pope Francis.

Pope Francis. Nearly from day one he has been a source of scandal to the faithful. From “Who am I to judge?” to denigrating big families for “breeding like rabbits” to encouraging acceptance of adultery by essentially blessing the non-Catholic paradigm of “remarriage after divorce,” he has consistently been at odds with the most basic Catholic doctrines. And now we have the Amazon Synod and the infamous “Pachamama” idols. Even with the absolute bestreading of the situation — that the pope is just taking his love of diversity too far — he has scandalized millions with his laissez-faire attitude toward idolatry.

Is Francis the Pope? - OnePeterFive

HardHead · Nov 21, 2019

Beloved2018 said:
for the bishops he's demoted

Interesting. Do you have any credible details that expand on this a bit?

Beloved2018 said:
What is the status of the Pan-Amazonian Synod?

Scary. At face value, in my opinion, I hope it vanishes to never be seen again. The only thing that may be half credible is that it may win followers that will later be properly converted to Catholicism. I don't know if this is a goal or not but it seems like it may be one. I'm saying this because I can't see anything else in this.

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

HardHead said:
Interesting. Do you have any credible details that expand on this a bit?

I'm not sure what you're asking. I was asking How can Papal jurisdiction include the demoting of bishops, when their demotion
may have included personal preference or politics. Are you asking who Francis has demoted?

Scary. At face value, in my opinion, I hope it vanishes to never be seen again. The only thing that may be half credible is that it may win followers that will later be properly converted to Catholicism. I don't know if this is a goal or not but it seems like it may be one. I'm saying this because I can't see anything else in this.

But what authority does it possess, since it was convened by the Pope?

HardHead · Nov 22, 2019

Beloved2018 said:
Are you asking who Francis has demoted?

No. The one I read about was an American cardinal that got put into ceremonial duties instead of the important posts he once held. I'm asking about official reasons for such actions. Most of what I have seen sounds like hearsay and gossip relative to reasons for the demotions. The speculative reasons may indeed be correct, I have no idea. It would be good if such matters were more open and clear.

Beloved2018 said:
But what authority does it possess, since it was convened by the Pope?

I'm not sure that I care. I'm only saying that it bugs me, personally. I say this with no offence meant to anyone especially bishops and clergy in general. My views are my own and I am not trying to sow discord or to attack anyone.

Prayer for discernment seems to be in order.

[Catholics Only] Excellent Article from Eric Sammons - Is Francis Pope?

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