Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
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Correct... because they are PARALLEL.
that's what PARALLEL means.
The two texts in question are separate, PARALLEL accounts of the SAME DISCOURSE, indeed the SAME SENTENCE spoken By Jesus at this ONE point in time.
Which makes it Impossible that each account means something completely opposite from the other.
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That there is an opinion?
Are you claiming that you are more guided, by the Holy Spirit, than the Church, in the 2nd century AD, within living memory of the Apostles themselves ?
The Catholic Church still officially applies 2 Thess 2:1-12, and the "mystery of iniquity" of the "man of sin" who demands to be worshipped as a god, to the future, on the eve of the 2C @ FJ
Uncritically accepting the statement of @Contenders Edge the Church has essentially always reserved 2 Thess 2:1-12 for the End Times of Gog & Magog on the eve of the 2C, FJ
That Sacred Tradition, now written, is by all appearances most likely part of what was still oral tradition "word of mouth" in 2 Thess 2:15
So why would you call essentially 2000 years of Church Tradition an "uninspired opinion", especially when it makes the most sense, is plausibly part of the very oral traditions Saint Paul gave the earliest Greek Churches, and seems to agree with you that the Olivet Discourse (OD) accounts are parallel ?
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That the second century church believed in a forthcoming Anti-Christ and that they did not believe that he was anyone presently reigning should be enough. They had more in common with dispensationalist beliefs than Preterist beliefs.
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The silence is deafening..........
#2050 used only in these 3 verses
2050. eremosis from 2049; despoliation:--desolation.
Matthew 24:15
Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>.......
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination<946> of the desolation/ἐρημώσεως<2050>
Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her
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No one is claiming that the accounts contradict one another unless they are a Bible skeptic. What is at the center of the debate is whether the three accounts of the Olivet discourse are speaking of the same event concerning the things to befall Jerusalem.
In Luke 21 Jesus says to His followers to flee Jerusalem when they see the city surrounded by armies, not when they have entered the city and the Temple. In Matthew and Mark, He says that when the abomination of desolation is seen standing in the Temple to flee the city as well. There is no mention of armies surrounding Jerusalem then.
It should also be noteworthy that the readers of Luke's Gospel are not instructed to consult the prophet Daniel regarding the armies surrounding Jerusalem. They are, however, instructed to consult the prophet Daniel concerning the abomination of desolation in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark. Daniel did not describe the abomination of desolation as being an army. He is described as being a man and a ruler.
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If the second century Church believed the Anti-Christ to be a figure to come, it should be obvious they likely did not believe Luke, Matthew, and Mark to be speaking of the same event because the Anti-Christ is the only known figure in scripture to carry the title of the abomination of desolation.
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Who associated Matthew 24 or Luke 21 with a future antichrist?
Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) (On Matthew 24:3,34) “But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: “See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . .” And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)
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Interesting.......
There are numerous forms of the root word G2945
2945. kukloi koo'-klo as if dative case of kuklos (a ring, "cycle"; akin to 2947); i.e. in a circle (by implication, of 1722), i.e. (adverbially) all around:--round about.
========================
2944. kukloo koo-klo'-o from the same as 2945; to encircle, i.e. surround:--compass (about), come (stand) round about.
G2944 κυκλόω (kykloō) occurs 7 times in in 5 verses
Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her
Now this is interesting. It used in 1 verse of Revelation.........Since it is used in 70AD Luke and the Jewish Wars, perhaps, however farfetched, this could be the 1st century Jewish Rebels, not a Gentle army. Just now thought of that.
Will have to look at this closer also......A lot of Hebrew Jewish symbology.........
Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded<2944>the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
============================================
Used on in this 1 verse
4033. peri kukloo per-ee-koo-klo'-o from 4012 and 2944; to encircle all around, i.e. blockade completely:--compass round.
Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a siege-work/circumvallation<5482 to Thee,
and shall be encompassing<4033> thee, and pressing thee every which place.
There are numerous forms of the root word G2945
2945. kukloi koo'-klo as if dative case of kuklos (a ring, "cycle"; akin to 2947); i.e. in a circle (by implication, of 1722), i.e. (adverbially) all around:--round about.
========================
2944. kukloo koo-klo'-o from the same as 2945; to encircle, i.e. surround:--compass (about), come (stand) round about.
G2944 κυκλόω (kykloō) occurs 7 times in in 5 verses
Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her
Now this is interesting. It used in 1 verse of Revelation.........Since it is used in 70AD Luke and the Jewish Wars, perhaps, however farfetched, this could be the 1st century Jewish Rebels, not a Gentle army. Just now thought of that.
Will have to look at this closer also......A lot of Hebrew Jewish symbology.........
Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded<2944>the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
============================================
Used on in this 1 verse
4033. peri kukloo per-ee-koo-klo'-o from 4012 and 2944; to encircle all around, i.e. blockade completely:--compass round.
Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a siege-work/circumvallation<5482 to Thee,
and shall be encompassing<4033> thee, and pressing thee every which place.
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No one is disputing whether or not Jesus foretold the destruction of the Temple which came to pass but whether or not the accounts of Mark and Matthew are speaking of a time to come after the destruction of the Temple in which case would require Jerusalem to recover from its desolation, which it has, and the presence of another Temple, which has not taken place. It needs to taken into account that Jesus foretells the destruction of the Temple before the disciples asked Him what would happen before His return. Your source does not mention who Clement thought the abomination of desolation might be.
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This rendering of the Greek only shows that the abomination of desolation is not an army and because it is in the Holy Place, which would be a Temple, it is already inside the city, which means it does not necessarily enter the city by way of force as the surrounding armies did in 70 A.D. The abomination of desolation can only be pertaining to an event that has not yet transpired.
We know Jesus foretold the desolation of Jerusalem which came to pass in 70 A.D. We also know that he foretold the coming abomination of desolation which by all historical accounts has not yet come to pass. The most complicated part in cross-checking the three accounts is pin pointing at what point in the discourse the abomination of desolation was mentioned. We know it was mentioned during that same occasion, we just do not know for sure at what point.
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Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
(See John 10:22 to understand the connection to Daniel.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Are you claiming the above are not parallel accounts?
Do you deny that Antiochus Epiphanes attacked the city killing thousands of Jews, and stopped the temple sacrifices during 167 BC?
Did the same thing happen again during 70 AD?
Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
.
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John 10:22 has nothing to do with the abomination of desolation.
I am not making that claim. You are the one that is assuming that I am and if you think that Antiochus Epiphanes is the abomination of desolation foretold by Christ, then you are clearly mistaken and need a lesson in history. And no, the same thing did not happen in 70 A.D. in the sense that the Roman army did not usurp the worship of God in the Temple and try to make it a throne for their Caesar. They destroyed the Temple even though Titus, who had great reverence for the Temple, did not initially want it destroyed.
But the abomination of desolation, like Antiochus Epiphanes, will usurp the Temple of God and, as AE did, make himself out to be God and demand to be worshipped as such. He will also cause the Temple sacrifices to cease as Antiochus did, but he will not destroy the Temple. The entire intent of the abomination of desolation is to usurp the throne of God on earth, which is the ultimate intent behind the Temple.
The Temple was not just place of worship; it was meant to be the throne of God on earth. Satan attempted to usurp the throne of God in Heaven and failed and what he could not do in Heaven, he will attempt to do on earth but ultimately fail, but he will not want to just place his throne just anywhere on earth. He wants to place his throne in Jerusalem which is the city of God on earth and in the Temple of God in his attempt to usurp the throne of God on earth and make himself out to be God by way of the Anti-Christ serving as his vessel.
In doing this, he thinks he can stop the Messiah from returning.
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An interesting commentary I just found when doing a google search on "Clement on Olivet Discourse"
Google search "clement on the olivet discourse"
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&sxsrf=ACYBGNRSm6NAO1A1vPGq42CEw8-rz61Fjg:1572621653680&source=hp&ei=VU28XaTaJMW6sQWHm4L4AQ&q=clement+on+the+olivet+discourse&oq=clement+on+the+olivet+discourse&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299l2.2327.14839..15182...1.0..0.181.3259.21j12......0....1..gws-wiz.....10..35i362i39j35i39j0j0i131j0i10j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j33i160j33i22i29i30.GqCPcoZK-t8&ved=0ahUKEwjk2J2YqMnlAhVFXawKHYeNAB8Q4dUDCAc&uact=5
The Coming of Jesus: The Olivet Discourse – Part 1
I'm going to do this part of the series in two sections, otherwise it would get too long and wordy! This part will focus on the "birth pangs" Jesus warned about which would lead up to the coming judgement and destruction of the temple.
The Olivet discourse is the prophecy given by Jesus in the Gospels of Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21. Most Christians are probably more familiar with the Matthew 24-25 version than the others, though they are all the same prophetic message of impending judgement.
If you're at all familiar with any doctrine or teaching on the "Second Coming" or "End Times", then these passages in the Gospels are most often quoted and used to say that Jesus is talking about a terrible time that is coming in the far, far, far off future, usually interpreted to mean within our lifetime (for some reason).
I, too, used to believe this as it was what I was taught in the churches I attended and told by the people I met, all with that eager expectation that Jesus could suddenly swoop down from the clouds any day now! What I didn't ever do was investigate these claims properly for myself, except read the parts of Scripture they said meant Jesus was coming in the future and then try to accept that it must be right since our church leaders were obviously more knowledgeable on this than I. Although I did spend a lot of time studying and trying to interpret Revelation as a new Christian (without much success I might add), I couldn't shake the feeling I got that the Apostles and Jesus all seemed to speak and write as though they expected something to happen then and very soon. Back in the early 2000's, searching the internet for theological help generally brought up lots of odd and wacky websites, complete with animated fire GIFs, or forums full of equally as confused believers trying to wrangle the "soon-ness" of the Scriptures with a far-future interpretation. So I did what any good Christian did, and just chalked it up to "God's ways are not our way" or "God's soon/time isn't the same as how we understand it".
Read more at: The Coming of Jesus: The Olivet Discourse – Part 1
TO BE CONTINUED................
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I like Clement........
Clement of Alexandria
Excerpts from Homilies | Excerpts from Stromata | Fragments of Clemens Alexandrinus
"Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal...This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing: washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly."
Clement of Alexandria
TITUS FLAVIUS CLEMENS
(c.150- 220)
Founder of the allegorical school of Biblical Interpretation | Teacher of Origen
"Shepherd of Tender Youth" - A.D.200 Earliest Known Hymn with Author
On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation)
"We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."
"These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety
======================
(On the Significance of the A.D.70)
"Whence also Peter, in his Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: ‘But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ, partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words, find His coming and death, and cross, and all the rest of the tortures which the Jews inflicted on Him, and His resurrection and assumption to heaven previous to the capture of Jerusalem. As it is written, These things are all that He behooves to suffer, and what should be after Him. Recognizing them, therefore, we have believed in God in consequence of what is written respecting Him.’ " (Miscellanies 4:15)
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