Heaven and Earth passing away - what does this mean?

LittleLambofJesus

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That topic has recently come up in another thread and it really is its own thread.

When we read these passages - is this the literal earth and literal heaven......or does it mean something else:

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
......and this question was also asked:
I was on another thread earlier and noticed how much of Isaiah 66 compares to 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation.

First we have this verse where the body and soul are DESTROYED in fire of gehenna, not suffering living torment:

Mat 10:28
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy<622> both soul and body in the gehenna.

Jesus uses the word "gehenna" concerning the corrupt murderous Jewish rulers in pre-70Ad Jerusalem:

Matthew 23:33 "Serpents! offspring<1081> of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the gehenna<1067>

Paul says we consist of body, soul and spirit:

1Th 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 18 shows the bodies and souls of men at the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Rev 18:13
“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
====================
Now compare this passage in Isaiah 66 with the destruction of Jerusalem in comparison to the NHNE......

Isa 66:
22“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me;
the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched,[Mark 9:44-48]
and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

===========================
Jesus refers to that passage in Mark:

Eze 20:38 - “I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Hos 5:2 - The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.
--------------------
Mar 9:44 [Isaiah 66:24]
where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
===========================
An interesting vid on that:
 
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Carl Emerson

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This heaven described in the original post is astronomical and is comprised of physical matter and energy. The spiritual heaven is unseen except in the results of its actions.

The created spiritual realm referred to in Gen 1 is quite different than the eternal spiritual realm where God dwells in timelessness.

It is this created spiritual realm that will be destroyed by fire and recreated along with the astronomical (physical) 'heavens' realm and the earth.

God is seperate from all this and controls these events from the Word of His mouth from outside of time in the eternal heaven.

Satan is a created, not an eternal being and was cursed by the fall. He was never with God in eternity. It is very important to understand this when dealing with His activities.
 
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James Honigman

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That topic has recently come up in another thread and it really is its own thread.

When we read these passages - is this the literal earth and literal heaven......or does it mean something else:

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.


......and this question was also asked:
Hi MKGAL. There are 3 heaven and earth ages. We are in the 2nd earth age, the flesh age. When the 3rd earth age begins we will be back in our spiritual bodies and heaven and earth will be combined with our Father's throne being in Jerusalem. Go to the 3rd chapter of Peter where all 3 ages are mentioned and explained.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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What on earth could be more in line with God's judgement and wrath than the murdering of His only begotten Son who He sent to save. In fact that's exactly what happens. The parable of the Banquet:
Matt 22:...7“But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

Notice what happens next:

8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.



Concerning mystery Babylon the Great
Rev 17: 16“And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17“For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Rev 18: 8“For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
20“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”
24“And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

Notice what happens next.
Rev 19:
7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.

Matt 23: 34“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36“Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.




 
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Bruce Leiter

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That topic has recently come up in another thread and it really is its own thread.

When we read these passages - is this the literal earth and literal heaven......or does it mean something else:

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.


......and this question was also asked:

I can't believe you didn't quote Rev. 21:1 as well. This old, decaying universe (yes, the literal one) will be replaced with a new universe with its capital city, so to speak, the new Jerusalem, a figurative picture of the church coming down to the new earth. The word "new" is not neos, which means brand-new but is kainos, which means new-and-improved. In other words, our new-and-vastly-improved resurrection bodies will live in that new universe reigning with and under Jesus.
 
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Messenger 3k

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That topic has recently come up in another thread and it really is its own thread.

When we read these passages - is this the literal earth and literal heaven......or does it mean something else:

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.


......and this question was also asked:

By God's grace, I already did justice to the above.

But quick question:

You brought up the issue of the feasts; claiming some of them are yet to be fulfilled by Jesus.

Now even if such was the case, by your logic, shouldn't we still be observing these feasts pending when Christ fulfills them?

Await your answer.
 
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mkgal1

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But quick question:

You brought up the issue of the feasts; claiming some of them are yet to be fulfilled by Jesus.

Now even if such was the case, by your logic, shouldn't we still be observing these feasts pending when Christ fulfills them?

Await your answer.
You've misunderstood my posts.

I believe Christ fulfilled ALL seven feasts - ALL in their appropriate time. Scripture suggests to us that He was to fulfill ALL the Law and fulfill ALL that the prophets had spoken of their coming and expected Messiah. Scripture also states that - until ALL is accomplished, none of the Law would pass from the Law.

Some have stated that He fulfilled ALL on the cross - but I was disagreeing with that. I do, however, believe He's fulfilled ALL the Law.....all that the prophets had spoken of their MEssiah....included ALL the feasts, but I believe that was ALL final at the destruction of the second Temple in ancient Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

As Spurgeon said:

Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of Tabernacles, or dedication?

No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under new heavens and earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it



Charles Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, quoted by John Bray, The New Heaven and the New Earth, (Lakeland, Fl. John Bray Ministry)​
 
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mkgal1

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I'm not typically a fan of John Piper - but I do agree with how he explains how Christ fulfilled and ended the Old Covenant regime:

Quoting from Desiring God:

The law was kept perfectly by Christ. And all its penalties against God’s sinful people were poured out on Christ. Therefore, the law is now manifestly not the path to righteousness; Christ is. The ultimate goal of the law is that we would look to Christ, not law-keeping, for our righteousness.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

“When you have Christ, you also have everything God promised through him.”
Hebrews 9:12, “He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.”

2. The priesthood that stood between worshiper and God has ceased. Hebrews 7:23–24, “The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.”

3. The physical temple has ceased to be the geographic center of worship. Now, Christ himself is the center of worship. He is the “place,” the “tent,” and the “temple” where we meet God. Therefore, Christianity has no geographic center, no Mecca, no Jerusalem. John 4:21, 23, “Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. . . . But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth.’” John 2:19, 21, “‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ . . . He [Jesus] was speaking about the temple of his body.” Matthew 18:20, “For where two or three are gathered in my [Jesus’s] name, there am I among them.”

4. The food laws that set Israel apart from the nations have been fulfilled and ended in Christ. Mark 7:18–19, “[Jesus] said to them, . . . ‘Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him?’ . . . (Thus he declared all foods clean.)”

5. The establishment of civil law on the basis of an ethnically rooted people, who are ruled directly by God, has ceased. The people of God are no longer a unified political body or an ethnic group or a nation-state, but are exiles and sojourners among all ethnic groups and all states. Therefore, God’s will for states is not taken directly from the Old Testament theocratic order, but should now be re-established from place to place and from time to time by means that correspond to God’s sovereign rule over all peoples, and that correspond to the fact that genuine obedience, rooted as it is in faith in Christ, cannot be coerced by law. The state is therefore grounded in God, but not expressive of God’s immediate rule. Romans 13:1, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.” John 18:36, “My [Jesus’s] kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting.” ~ How Christ Fulfilled and Ended the Old Testament Regime
 
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Messenger 3k

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You've misunderstood my posts.

I believe Christ fulfilled ALL seven feasts - ALL in their appropriate time. Scripture suggests to us that He was to fulfill ALL the Law and fulfill ALL that the prophets had spoken of their coming and expected Messiah. Scripture also states that - until ALL is accomplished, none of the Law would pass from the Law.

Some have stated that He fulfilled ALL on the cross - but I was disagreeing with that. I do, however, believe He's fulfilled ALL the Law.....all that the prophets had spoken of their MEssiah....included ALL the feasts, but I believe that was ALL final at the destruction of the second Temple in ancient Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

As Spurgeon said:

Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of Tabernacles, or dedication?

No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under new heavens and earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it



Charles Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, quoted by John Bray, The New Heaven and the New Earth, (Lakeland, Fl. John Bray Ministry)​

I see.

So, in order to fit into your interpretation of all been fulfilled at "70 AD", heaven and earth had to be interpreted as Israel?
 
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mkgal1

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I see.

So, in order to fit into your interpretation of all been fulfilled at "70 AD", heaven and earth had to be interpreted as Israel?
Not the people - but the covenant between God (which is represented as the heavenly domain) and the People of God (earthly domain).

The ancient Hebrews understood Heaven and Earth to intersect where God and His people meet. In the Old Covenant - that was in the Holy of Holies (through the High Priest's service). Now Christ is our High Priest and He meets us personally, when we "accept" Him. It's a new creation.
 
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Not the people - but the covenant between God (which is represented as the heavenly domain) and the People of God (earthly domain).

The ancient Hebrews understood Heaven and Earth to intersect where God and His people meet. In the Old Covenant - that was in the Holy of Holies (through the High Priest's service). Now Christ is our High Priest and He meets us personally, when we "accept" Him. It's a new creation.

You know, all these would be easier if you just took heaven and earth for what it really means: heaven and earth.
 
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mkgal1

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You know, all these would be easier if you just took heaven and earth for what it really means: heaven and earth.
That may work just fine with people that can view God as destroying things that got tainted (or didn't follow His rules right away) but I believe, instead, that He restores and makes creation new with His love and healing (as much of the NT is about "the new creation in Christ").

Besides - that doesn't resolve the issue of the passage about heaven and earth passing away and the dilemma that causes if one is to believe that's actually our planet. Jesus said heaven and earth had to pass away before the law could pass?!? We're still here - yet the Old Covenant law is gone.

Isaiah 51:16 ~
"I have put my word in your mouth and have covered

you with the shadow of my hand,
to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are my people'". [NASV]


C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).
 
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Besides - that doesn't resolve the issue of the passage about heaven and earth passing away

There is nothing to resolve in that passage. You're simply misinterpreting it.

Jesus was merely saying the law will not be erased, it must be fulfilled within this age and unless it is fulfilled, this age will not pass. Simple.

That may work just fine with people that can view God as destroying things that got tainted (or didn't follow His rules right away)...

Where does scripture tell you God destroyed the heavens and the earth because it was tainted?

Do you understand what scripture implies by destroying the earth?

Do you even understand the structure of the heavens?
 
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ewq1938

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You've misunderstood my posts.

I believe Christ fulfilled ALL seven feasts - ALL in their appropriate time. Scripture suggests to us that He was to fulfill ALL the Law and fulfill ALL that the prophets had spoken of their coming and expected Messiah. Scripture also states that - until ALL is accomplished, none of the Law would pass from the Law.


All feasts were fulfilled during his sinless life prior to the cross. The Passover was the last one that was needed before the cross. Nothing was left after the cross, not the for that year, the next nor decades to AD70.

After he died, the law changed. Not everyone knew it so the majority of Jews carried on like usual but they were in error. Those that followed Christ were taught the law changed and that is reflected in writings post-cross. Yes, some Christians may have still practiced aspects of Judaism and the old law but that's just confusion as the transition would be confusing for some. None of that is evidence that the law was still in effect because scripture says it was not.

Also, AD70 did not stop Jews from practicing the old law as they always had except the parts that involved the temple and sacrifices which was a huge deal but it didn't stop all the other things in the old law from being practiced. They even built temples all over the world. A apart of Judaism ended at AD70 but just one part, the rest didn't so it really had no effect on Christianity at all so it cannot be claimed to have been Christ finally fulfilling everything 4 decades after his ascension into heaven. He said it was done on the cross and he was correct.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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All feasts were fulfilled during his sinless life prior to the cross. The Passover was the last one that was needed before the cross. Nothing was left after the cross, not the for that year, the next nor decades to AD70.----------------------
.
nor decades after 70AD

Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.
===========================
Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denarius and three measures of barleys a denarius,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."
 
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heaven and Earth refer to Genesis chapter 1 and the covenant created at the beginning.any reference to have an Earth as a reference to Genesis 1 and that order. when he talks about heaven and earth passing away it's talking about what is spoken of in Revelation at the end of the order of creation as we know it will end and a new order will be established that means a new law will be established for that order
 
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mkgal1

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The Passover was the last one that was needed before the cross. Nothing was left after the cross, not the for that year, the next nor decades to AD70.
What about Pentecost? There's a message of fulfillment there as well (for one example). There was a reason Jesus told His followers to wait in Jerusalem after His ascension.
 
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ewq1938

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What about Pentecost? There's a message of fulfillment there as well (for one example). There was a reason Jesus told His followers to wait in Jerusalem after His ascension.


Everything was fulfilled on the cross. Pentecost after the cross was something new that happened within the new covenant.
 
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Everything was fulfilled on the cross. Pentecost after the cross was something new that happened within the new covenant.
this is such a blatant the error and shows complete ignorance of covenant theology and shows a ignorance of the calendar system. God does things according to his calendar system and the calendar is yet to be fulfilled
 
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All feasts were fulfilled during his sinless life prior to the cross. The Passover was the last one that was needed before the cross. Nothing was left after the cross, not the for that year, the next nor decades to AD70.

I basically agree with your points, but we need to take into account how the whole seventieth week was determined to establish all requirements (all 6 clauses) of the New Covenant.

"Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to (1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering." (Dan 9:24,27)
If we don't take into account the entire 70th week, our argument is left open to questions about the Jewish Pentecost fifty days after the cross, and also the Gentile Pentecost 3.5 years after the cross.

Martin Luther explains this in his sermon on Matthew 24:15-28

"When Christ sent out the Gospel through the ministry of himself and of the Apostles, it lasted three or three and a half years, that it almost amounts to the calculation of Daniel, namely the 490 years. Hence he also says, Christ shall take a half a week, in which the daily offerings shall cease; that is, the priesthood and reign of the Jews shall have an end; which all took place in the three and a half years in which Christ preached, and was almost completed in four years after Christ, in which the Gospel prospered the most, especially in Palestine through the Apostles (that when they opened their mouth, the Holy Ghost fell as it were, from heaven, as we see in the Acts of the Apostles), so that a whole week, or seven years, established the covenant."

Having said that, Im struggling a bit to understand why Partial Preterists use the AD 70 events to define the ending of the old covenant. Is that what is being said by PP's? If so I respectfully disagree.
 
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