Christian Post “Leaving Christianity” testimony: rigid creationism destroyed my faith

NBB said:

Yes God is not that easy to find i don't know why he made things this way but. Is not like some person can say 'hey its there look' and thats it.

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OK - so GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways) again. This often ends the chain of enquiry started by someone making confident statements about God... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bungle_Bear said:

Adam apparently saw God and lived, so what was he looking at? Is there any reason I can't see a left leg instead of a face?

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That was before the fall, everything changed after that. Before the fall not only did they see God but walked and talked with him.
Then
Genesis 3
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
After this only select few 'saw' God. Most times scripture says it was the Angel of the Lord or a bright cloud. God is spirit anyway.
Moses 'saw' God.
he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.” (Ex. 33:19–23)
Then when Moses came down from the moutain everyone was scared of him because he shone.
Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. (Ex. 34:29–30)

coffee4u said:

That was before the fall, everything changed after that. Before the fall not only did they see God but walked and talked with him.
Then
Genesis 3
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
After this only select few 'saw' God. Most times scripture says it was the Angel of the Lord or a bright cloud. God is spirit anyway.
Moses 'saw' God.
he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.” (Ex. 33:19–23)
Then when Moses came down from the moutain everyone was scared of him because he shone.
Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. (Ex. 34:29–30)

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Jacob saw God face to face (Genesis 32:30), Moses saw God face to face (Exodus 3:6, Exodus 33:11).

Special plead your way out of those biblical claims, then tell me why God can't show me his back.

hedrick said:

Of course. That's largely what I'm saying. Faith isn't sustainable unless there's some kind of experience, or at least interpretation of experience, associated with it. Historically there was. I may think most of it was misinterpretation, but people at least thought they were impacted by the supernatural on a regular basis. The problem with critical thinking is that it tends to challenge those interpretations, and leave us with without much in the way of Christian experience.

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Hedrick, you state that "faith isn't sustainable unless there's some kind of experience, or at least interpretation of experience, associated with it." I agree, in part. I disagree that the experience in question is anything other than faith and the life lived by faith. You seem to want to locate the experience in something other than faith. You mentioned the experience of those in the 16th century, that they experienced a supernatural world; however, now the world is very different. To take a term from Bultmann, the world has been "demythologized." No doubt, in many ways, it has been.

What I don't think has changed is the transforming experience of faith itself, which is simply the life lived by faith. Your comment reminded me of the First Great Awakening. Lots of folks were having very vivid experiences in the church (Northampton) where Jonathan Edwards served. There were many who thought what was happening in his church was extravagant with all the shrieking, and flailing, and carrying on. In his The Distinguishing Marks of a Work of the Spirit of God, he defends what was happening by basically arguing that the extravagant experiences weren't against the Holy Spirit. Which, by the by, is not a very strong argument for the experiences. But, the conclusion he comes to is that the real work of the Spirit is the transformed life, i.e. a belief in the glory of the resurrected Christ (gospel), a turning from sin, regard for the scriptures as the rule of faith and practice (not a science book, in fact he encourages folks to study and learn the sciences), a more sensible (civil) person in general, and most importantly a love for God and neighbor. As he puts it, "He that thus dwells in love, dwells in God, and God in him." The true work (experience) was the life lived by faith in God who raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

My point being the experience of faith is the experience of a transformed/transforming life. You are arguing that science and critical thinking have put into question certain supernatural assumptions of a bygone era. No doubt they have. But, the one experience that is impervious to those is the experience of transformation, which is simply the life of faith. No matter how supernatural the experience one has, one must still get up everyday and trust the God who brings things into existence and raises the dead.

Likewise, even if science and critical thinking could tip the scales in favor of such a God, one would still have to get up every day and live life trusting God. That kind of faith, if it is sustained, is transformative. And that transformation, usually experienced over a life-time, is not easily made subject to changing explanations of the natural world. A person can tell me God doesn't exist, but they can't tell me my life isn't better because I believe God does exist. I know my own experience. Likewise, the best argument I can give for my faith is not a well-reasoned argument, based on science and critical thinking, but my life lived by faith.

Edwards - The Distinguishing Marks of a Work of the Spirit of God

public hermit said:

Hedrick, you state that "faith isn't sustainable unless there's some kind of experience, or at least interpretation of experience, associated with it." I agree, in part. I disagree that the experience in question is anything other than faith and the life lived by faith.

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You're describing my idea of what it is to be Christian. However I'm not convinced that it's enough to retain the traditional level of membership. I think that requires either the more dramatic type of experience, or connection with some other motivator. The first is the Pentecostal approach. As I'm sure you know Pentecostals are being very successful these days, particularly outside the US. The second is the evangelical approach, which ties Christianity to a culture that is currently threatened, and defending that provides the motivation. Despite the fact that my own faith isn't of either type, I'm not convinced that faith alone can retain the kind of membership we're used to, even though I agree with you that it leads to a better life.

hedrick said:

You're describing my idea of what it is to be Christian. However I'm not convinced that it's enough to retain the traditional level of membership. I think that requires either the more dramatic type of experience, or connection with some other motivator. The first is the Pentecostal approach. As I'm sure you know Pentecostals are being very successful these days, particularly outside the US. The second is the evangelical approach, which ties Christianity to a culture that is currently threatened, and defending that provides the motivation. Despite the fact that my own faith isn't of either type, I'm not convinced that faith alone can retain the kind of membership we're used to, even though I agree with you that it leads to a better life.

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Okay, I see your point. And, I'm inclined to agree. I wasn't thinking in terms of "traditional level of membership." What you're saying now makes sense to me. I guess I was preaching to the choir, haha.

public hermit said:

Okay, I see your point. And, I'm inclined to agree. I wasn't thinking in terms of "traditional level of membership." What you're saying now makes sense to me. I guess I was preaching to the choir, haha.

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Yup. First tenor.

This is exactly what I've been talking about for years, the evidence for evolution is so strong, and my understanding of it strong enough that all creationists are going to convince me by demanding the bible be taken literally is leaving Chrstianity. my faith is stronger then that, but I'm not going to suddenly become a creationists without better evidence then, "uhuh thats doesn't count." they like to use.

SLP said:

"In reality the public appropriation of Christianity and Evolution are facile and simplistic, and then you end up with giant groups of people squaring off against each other, neither of which has much of an idea what they are talking about. It might be a larger tale about overconfidence and posturing, one which involves our religious, political, economic, social, and scientific views."


In my experience, this is like when Rush Limbaugh mocked Michael J. Fox's Parkinson's syndrome signs and people rightly called him out. After he was called out for being a callous fool, the usual suspects came to his aid with statements like "Well, sure Limbaugh is a jerk, but the other side has Rachel Maddow."

Creationists burst forth with their copy-pasted nonsense from the ICR. People familiar with science provide evidence that the ICR claims are bogus. Not really "giant groups of people squaring off against each other, neither of which has much of an idea what they are talking about.". Not in my experience.

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this is probably what annoys me the most about creationists and c-design proponents, their arguments might be more effective if they knew what evolution actually claimed, but so often they just attack strawman.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Science doesn't really deal in proof, but in levels of confidence. If 'real proof' is supposed to correspond to a high, or the highest, level of confidence, it can't consist only of anecdotal subjective experience. That is the weakest form of evidence known to science.

At the very least it should be objective, capable of independent verification.

Can you clarify what makes this 'real proof' more than 'just a belief'? For example, how could others tell it was more than just a belief?

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When you see something you have proof is there and exists like an object, or something you hear, we are talking the same level of proof, things we experienced with God, same level of 'confidence' and proof, is not really that complicated.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

I'm not being close-minded, I'm asking you to explain what you mean. If you believe God is everywhere, he must be wherever you are - doesn't that imply that he must always be close?

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God is everywhere but a person can be far away from him, your relationship with him determines if you can get close to him. There is 'different levels' of his presence.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

People of faith don't need to be convinced by circumstances, do they ?

As Jesus told the disciples - blessed are those who believe without seeing. Faith is a Gift from the Father. Faith is the substance, the certainty, of things hoped for, the assurance (trusting the Father) of things not seen.

They willingly and joyously always seek and keep seeking, and obeying , the Father, DOing His Word.

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Well i don't know disciples had evidence, and they grew because of it, myself, i thought God was a distant thing hard on people etc, until one day i went to church and he revealed himself to me, after that i knew God was more close to people that i thought and that he can interact with us and i was amazed, christians should experience something from God sometimes, if not it would seem God is doing nothing in their life, and that is sad.

NBB said:

until one day i went to church and he revealed himself to me, after that i knew God was more close to people that i thought and that he can interact with us and i was amazed, christians should experience something from God sometimes

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Yes, as written in Scripture, God reveals SALVATION (in JESUS) to little children. Otherwise, they aren't saved (yet anyway) . "little children" are people of any age, to whom God Reveals Salvation - and those that God does not reveal salvation to, are not His children yet anyway from what He Says in His Word. GOD LOVES TO REVEAL SALVATION to little children - it is HIS GOOD PLEASURE TO DO SO.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

OK - so GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways) again. This often ends the chain of enquiry started by someone making confident statements about God... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Except i have confidence about God because i have experience with him, i'm about as sure i had proof of God for myself like evidence i'm typing on a pc keyboard now.

NBB said:

Except i have confidence about God because i have experience with him, i'm about as sure i had proof of God for myself like evidence i'm typing on a pc keyboard now.

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What happened?

Bungle_Bear said:

Jacob saw God face to face (Genesis 32:30), Moses saw God face to face (Exodus 3:6, Exodus 33:11).

Special plead your way out of those biblical claims, then tell me why God can't show me his back.

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Sometimes to get the point you have to also read the sentences on either side of a statement, as well as other scripture to gain the context.

Jacob actually saw and wrestled the angel of the Lord. That is why I mentioned him in my post before. Some say that the 'Angel of the Lord' was Jesus before he came to earth as a baby, others have said the Angel of the Lord is a particular angel who comes to people in God's stead, I've also seen it said that maybe it's God in a different form.
The main thing is Jacob thought he was wrestling a man to start with, so a person of substance. As you see from when God interacted with Mosses and hid him in the cleft of the rock and he saw his back, that wrestling or simply talking to God's face is not possible.

Lobster Johnson said:

What happened?

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Like a lot of christian can say to you, the holy spirit happened. Search for experiences with the holy spirit and will be lots and lots of them written on the internet.

coffee4u said:

Sometimes to get the point you have to also read the sentences on either side of a statement, as well as other scripture to gain the context.

Jacob actually saw and wrestled the angel of the Lord. That is why I mentioned him in my post before. Some say that the 'Angel of the Lord' was Jesus before he came to earth as a baby, others have said the Angel of the Lord is a particular angel who comes to people in God's stead, I've also seen it said that maybe it's God in a different form.
The main thing is Jacob thought he was wrestling a man to start with, so a person of substance. As you see from when God interacted with Mosses and hid him in the cleft of the rock and he saw his back, that wrestling or simply talking to God's face is not possible.

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Thanks for the special pleading. The context clearly implies (some translations go so far as to state categorically) Jacob wrestled with God, and he makes an outright statement that he saw God face-to-face and survived.

NBB said:

Like a lot of christian can say to you, the holy spirit happened. Search for experiences with the holy spirit and will be lots and lots of them written on the internet.

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What did *you* experience?

Bungle_Bear said:

Thanks for the special pleading. The context clearly implies (some translations go so far as to state categorically) Jacob wrestled with God, and he makes an outright statement that he saw God face-to-face and survived.

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I was just giving an explanation. Take from it what you will.