The dual effort in the creation of the God-Man

BCsenior

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They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?


The Word was God who became flesh (Jesus)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God” (John 1:1)


“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14)

The Holy Spirit who is God caused Mary to conceive

The angel Gabriel said to Mary: “The Holy Spirit will
come upon you, and the power of the Most High will
overshadow you. So the Baby to be born will be holy
and He will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)


The angel Gabriel said to Joseph: “For the Child within her
was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a Son,
and you are to name Him Jesus” (Matthew 1:20-21)


“… while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant
through the power of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18)


IMO, Jesus was called “the Son of God” because
the Holy Spirit “played the role of His father”.
(He was the “father”, Mary was the mother.)


So, why was this dual effort to create Jesus required?

Who is the only true God?

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ
whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

“… and we are in Him (Father God) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)


All Scriptures are from the NKJV.
 

Albion

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They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?
No.

The Word was God who became flesh (Jesus)
and this is why the above is answered "No."


So, why was this dual effort to create Jesus required?
It is generally thought that for the reality of God becoming Man to impact us mortals, it was important for God not to simply show up as a man, etc. like some superhero or apparition, but to be a man as we understand men.

 
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BCsenior

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It is generally thought that for the reality of God becoming Man to impact us mortals,
it was important for God not to simply show up as a man, etc.
like some superhero or apparition, but to be a man as we understand men.
Nay razbeerum! (Bulgarian for "Don't understand!")
I.E. I understand English, but I don't understand what you are saying.
You seem to be saying the same as I am saying.

IMO, if someone is fully human, he/she has to be created.

Meanwhile, IMO, the sinless human sacrifice did NOT have to be God.
It was just MUCH more impressive that He was!
 
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Albion

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Jesus' body was created. There is no debate over that.

But this does not mean that Son of God was created.

He had existed as a spirit from before taking on the body and all else that pertains to the human we call Jesus.

To put it another way (and the way that you mentioned right at the start) he was God, and then he became Man also. He was not, therefore, a unique God-Man blend.
 
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Albion

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Meanwhile, IMO, the sinless human sacrifice did NOT have to be God.
It was just MUCH more impressive that He was!
Ahem. There is no such thing as a sinless human sacrifice. It has to have been God in order to accomplish what you are speaking of.
 
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Dave L

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They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?


The Word was God who became flesh (Jesus)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God” (John 1:1)


“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14)

The Holy Spirit who is God caused Mary to conceive

The angel Gabriel said to Mary: “The Holy Spirit will
come upon you, and the power of the Most High will
overshadow you. So the Baby to be born will be holy
and He will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)


The angel Gabriel said to Joseph: “For the Child within her
was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a Son,
and you are to name Him Jesus” (Matthew 1:20-21)


“… while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant
through the power of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18)


IMO, Jesus was called “the Son of God” because
the Holy Spirit “played the role of His father”.
(He was the “father”, Mary was the mother.)


So, why was this dual effort to create Jesus required?

Who is the only true God?

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ
whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

“… and we are in Him (Father God) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)


All Scriptures are from the NKJV.
This is way off the rails. You need to consider the early Church doctrine of the trinity.

Chalcedonian Creed

The Chalcedonian Creed was adopted at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 in Asia Minor as a response to certain heretical views concerning the nature of Christ. This Council of Chalcedon is the fourth of the seven ecumenical councils accepted by Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and many Protestant Christian churches. It is the first Council not recognized by any of the Oriental Orthodox churches.

The Chalcedonian Creed was written amid controversy between the western and eastern churches over the meaning of the incarnation (see Christology), the ecclesiastical influence of the Byzantine emperor, and the supremacy of the Roman Pope. The western churches readily accepted the creed, but some eastern churches did not. The adopted Creed specifically maintained the two distinct natures of Christ (divine and human) over against teaching of Eutyches -- that Christ had only one nature, a mixture of human and divine. Eutychianism is also known as monophysitism from monos (single) and physis (nature), which confuses both Christ’s true humanity and his true deity.

An English translation of the Creed

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable soul and body; consubstantial with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us. [1]
 
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redleghunter

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They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?
That's why it is actually: Jesus Christ is truly God and truly human. When someone added that 'fully' it made some minds try to figure out 'how fully' and then it leads to all sorts of heresies.
 
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redleghunter

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So, why was this dual effort to create Jesus required?

Who is the only true God?

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ
whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

“… and we are in Him (Father God) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)
Perhaps you can share your Christology in a bit more detail with us. From the above it seems you deny Jesus Christ as God the Son.
 
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redleghunter

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Nay razbeerum! (Bulgarian for "Don't understand!")
I.E. I understand English, but I don't understand what you are saying.
You seem to be saying the same as I am saying.

IMO, if someone is fully human, he/she has to be created.

Meanwhile, IMO, the sinless human sacrifice did NOT have to be God.
It was just MUCH more impressive that He was!
Did the Divine Logos, God the Son exist eternally with the Father before the Incarnation? Yes or no?
 
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redleghunter

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Meanwhile, IMO, the sinless human sacrifice did NOT have to be God.
It was just MUCH more impressive that He was!
God does not do half measures. The Word, the Divine Logos, is eternal. God's plan of salvation is eternal. A "super-human" as you lay out Jesus to be, is not eternal.
 
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redleghunter

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Jesus' body was created. There is no debate over that.

But this does not mean that Son of God was created.

He had existed as a spirit from before taking on the body and all else that pertains to the human we call Jesus.

To put it another way (and the way that you mentioned right at the start) he was God, and then he became Man also. He was not, therefore, a unique God-Man blend.
Indeed. Two natures One Person.
 
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redleghunter

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Perhaps this will be of assistance:

The Incarnation of the Son of God is the terminology used to describe what happened when the second person of the Trinity, the eternal Son of God, "became flesh" as he was miraculously conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary according to the Bible. In the incarnation, the divine nature of the Son was perfectly united with human nature in one divine Person. This person, Jesus Christ, was both "truly God and truly man."

Multimedia
Importance of the doctrine
In the early Christian era many divisions broke out concerning the true nature of Christ. Christians believed that He was the Son of God, but how was he both Son of God and truly man?

These disputes gave birth to certain heresies, the most serious of which were the Gnostic heresy, which stated that Jesus only appeared to be a true man; the Arian heresy, which taught that Jesus was a created being, less than God; and the Nestorian heresy, which implied that the Son of God, and the man, Jesus, shared the same body but retained two separate personhoods.

The final definitions of the incarnation and the nature of Jesus were made by the early church at the Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451). These councils declared that Jesus was both fully God, begotten from the Father; and fully man, taking His flesh and human nature from the Virgin Mary. These two natures, human and divine, were hypostatically united into the one personhood of Jesus Christ.

Further reading
  • Thomas F. Torrance, Incarnation: The Person and Life of Christ. IVP Academic, 2008.
  • Athanasius, On the Incarnation. St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1975.
  • Stephen T. Davis, et al., eds. The Incarnation: An Interdisciplinary Symposium on the Incarnation of the Son of God. Oxford, 2004.
  • Paul D. Molnar, Incarnation and Resurrection: Toward a Contemporary Understanding. Eerdmans, 2007.
See also
External links
Jesus Christ[/paste:font]
https://www.theopedia.com/incarnation-of-the-son-of-god
 
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redleghunter

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The two natures of Jesus refers to the doctrine that the one person Jesus Christ had/has two natures, divine and human. In theology this is called the doctrine of the hypostatic union, from the Greek word hypostasis (which came to mean substantive reality). Early church figures such as Athanasius used the term "hypostatic union" to describe the teaching that these two distinct natures (divine and human) co-existed substantively and in reality in the single person of Jesus Christ. The aim was to defend the doctrine that Jesus was simultaneously truly God and truly man.

Historical development
The doctrine of the hypostatic union (the two natures of Jesus) was adopted as orthodox doctrine at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Three major schools of theology were involved at the council: Alexandria, Antioch, and the West. The consensus of these three schools in the Chalcedonian Creed illustrates the catholicity (i.e. universality) of the ancient church. ^[1]^ The creed asserted two distinct natures, human and divine, and affirmed the one person of Jesus Christ.

Biblical basis
One of the clearest passages in Scripture concerning the two natures of Jesus comes from John 1 (see on John 1). The Word (i.e. Jesus) "was with God, and the Word was God." Moreover, the Word took on human flesh (John 1:14). Luke's gospel also says that Jesus "increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man" (Luke 2:52).

https://www.theopedia.com/hypostatic-union
 
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Der Alte

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Here is a sabot to toss into the machinery.
Psalms 49:7-9
(7) (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -
(8) (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -
(9) (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.
 
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redleghunter

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The Communicatio Idiomatum
"A doctrine that is related to the Hypostatic Union is the communicatio idiomatum (Latin for 'communication of properties'). It is the teaching that the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus. This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), claim that He descended from heaven, (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence, (Matt. 28:20). All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus."^[5]^

God and man forever
"Christ's humanity was not a mere fleshly shell that God rented and used for a temporary amount of time. God did not just come to live in flesh as a man, but the 'Word became flesh' (John 1:14). God incorporated human nature into His eternal being. In the incarnation humanity has been permanently incorporated into the Godhead. God is now a man in addition to being God. At the virgin conception God acquired an identity He would retain for the rest of eternity. His human existence is both authentic and permanent. Jesus' humanity is not something that can be discarded or dissolved back into the Godhead, but He will always and forever exist in heaven as a glorified man, albeit God at the same time."^[6]^ Upon his ascension, Jesus was not deified, but rather was glorified.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?
As written, as God Says in His Word, Yahuweh Created the physical BODY of Yahushua Hamashiach, in the womb.....
As written, Yahuweh and Yahushua have ALWAYS been ECHAD (one). (and now also , as in John 17, Jesus prayed for His Ekklesia-disciples-born again ones, to BE ECHAD, the same way.)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Here is a sabot to toss into the machinery.
Psalms 49:7-9
(7) (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -
(8) (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -
(9) (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.
THIS IS TRUTH! (not for tossing into any of man's shenanigans ("machinery") ) .....
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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These disputes gave birth to certain heresies, the most serious of which were the Gnostic heresy, which stated that Jesus only appeared to be a true man; the Arian heresy, which taught that Jesus was a created being, less than God; and the Nestorian heresy, which implied that the Son of God, and the man, Jesus, shared the same body but retained two separate personhoods.

The final definitions of the incarnation and the nature of Jesus were made by the early church at the Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451). These councils declared that Jesus was both fully God, begotten from the Father; and fully man, taking His flesh and human nature from the Virgin Mary. These two natures, human and divine, were hypostatically united into the one personhood of Jesus Christ.
"final definitions"?

Really ??

I think it is much much better, and right with Yahuweh, to simply believe Yahuweh's Meaning - His Own Word - and
not to rely on such "final definitions" by men, anywhere.
 
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