Darkhorse

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A person’s death was the BEST outcome?

-checks to see if this is Christianforums-

Wow.

I could wax on and on about "how the robber could have been converted to Christ and turned his life around", etc., etc., but...how realistic is that? How often does such a person turn 180° and renounce crime and immorality? Only when the Holy Spirit knocks them off their horse (not very often).

Maybe he wouldn't have shot the clerk, but if he continues robbing it will happen sooner or later.

Remember, this isn't simple theft. Armed robbery means the robber threated the life of the clerk, and may well have shot him even if he complied completely with the robbers demand. The robber forfeited his right to life the instant he pointed his gun at the clerk.

Don't confuse the guilty with the innocent.
 
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Darkhorse

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I’m not. He was guilty and should be punished.

Not killed. Is being killed the only answer to crime?

The legal intent of the clerk is to stop the attacker, not to kill him. But lethal force is allowed to be used, since the attack must be stopped quickly. If the robber dies as a result of his actions, that's a risk he took.
 
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Larniavc

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The legal intent of the clerk is to stop the attacker, not to kill him. But lethal force is allowed to be used, since the attack must be stopped quickly. If the robber dies as a result of his actions, that's a risk he took.
Didn’t you suggest that death was the only outcome?
 
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Darkhorse

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Of course not!

Look at post #7; I said "Once the bad guy initiated the robbery, this is the best of all possible outcomes". The robber could have been wounded and lived. Or the clerk could have missed and scared the robber away. But the clerk couldn't count on either of those events.

Trained gun owners shoot for the "center of mass" (thickest part of the body), and hope the attack stops. Obviously, that's what the clerk did.
 
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Rescued One

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Since when would preventing my own death be a crime? Why would a murderer's life be more important than my childrens', grandchildrens' and mine?

Non-Americans can pretend to be more righteous than gun-owning Americans, but that doesn't make them right.
 
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Zoii

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We're veering a bit off topic - the thread isn't asking a question on your views of gun rights and politics about it.

As for the article, it's a sad situation when anyone is killed because they make the wrong choice, but it's a risk you take when you rob someone - sometimes they will fight back. It reminds me of a story I read the other day where a man who raped a woman - and had previous charges of the same against other women - was attacked by the woman and lost...let's say, important pieces - and is now complaining about lifelong injury and repair and blah, blah. That's the risk he took to rape a woman that some are able to get the upper hand for a second and fight back.

The family can be sad that their brother is dead, and I sympathize - but they need to understand it is his actions that led to this. Perhaps in time they will.
I doubt many would argue the idea that "he had it coming" when you attempt an armed robbery.

Its not just the family of the perp it affects - It affects the person who shot and killed him. It affects the people who witnessed it. And it affects the people who hear it on the news as yet another person shot with a gun - ie it adds to the accumulative affect that gun deaths have, upon the community. It adds to the hysteria of purchasing more weapons, which in turn adds to the total amount of arms in the community.

This is why gun ownership is the elephant in the room which you state doesn't warrant being discussed in the thread.
 
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dailyprayerwarrior

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This is a world filled with difficult situations. All we can do ourselves is seek the Lord and ask Him to guide us day by day. He knows all things and knows when and how to avoid sticky situations if we'll ask Him. The lost do not have Jesus but we do and He loves us. He's our protection in this present world.
 
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Zoii

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Since when would preventing my own death be a crime? Why would a murderer's life be more important than my childrens', grandchildrens' and mine?
I don't think anyone is arguing against self-defense. I haven't noticed anyone in support of the gent who attempted armed robbery
Non-Americans can pretend to be more righteous than gun-owning Americans, but that doesn't make them right.

I'm not an American. My perspective isnt about being righteous - in fact I don't understand how you arrived at that.

I'm pointing out the obvious that surely your community must be concerned about. How is it that someone with such a dubious reputation, can so easily and legally purchase a gun to hold up a store in the first place. Surely as a citizen that must be worrying.

One of my studies is in dealing critical incidents. eg an air crash. The process is called a Root Cause Analysis. If you break down this critical incident there are a few root causes. Perhaps that should be the direction of discussion here.
 
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renniks

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That's exactly right - In my country, you are not allowed to carry them. Its common sense for goodness sake. Don't allow people to carry weapons or they will use them. Just because you do it in Malaysia, It's not sound advice to copy your country or that of the USA
Oh good grief. I guess it's hard to understand freedom when you have already lost it.
Nobody "allows" criminals to use guns for violent crimes. Criminals don't care about a rule saying they have to meet certain criteria to have a gun. That's what makes them criminals, they don't obey laws. Is this hard to understand?
 
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renniks

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I'm pointing out the obvious that surely your community must be concerned about. How is it that someone with such a dubious reputation, can so easily and legally purchase a gun to hold up a store in the first place. Surely as a citizen that must be worrying.
Did I miss something? Who said the robber had a gun legally? Regardless, it became illegal as soon as he tried to commit a crime.
 
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Zoii

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Did I miss something? Who said the robber had a gun legally? Regardless, it became illegal as soon as he tried to commit a crime.
It became illegal to own the gun after he committed the crime? Thats an unusual way of looking at things.

Anyway - I'll leave the thread. Ive added my perspective, so thats sufficient.
 
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Zoii

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Oh good grief. I guess it's hard to understand freedom when you have already lost it.
Nobody "allows" criminals to use guns for violent crimes. Criminals don't care about a rule saying they have to meet certain criteria to have a gun. That's what makes them criminals, they don't obey laws. Is this hard to understand?
Freedom wasn't in discussion and I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of freedom. Its too vague and obtuse.

That's an interesting point of philosophy. Probably not the right mood here to expand on that philosophical debate ie " Are we allowing or colluding in criminal acts by legalising their capacity to carry weapons" . Probably not good to discuss that now but we can debate it in another thread though if you want.

Anyway - very interesting to hear the American perspective.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I don't think anyone is arguing against self-defense. I haven't noticed anyone in support of the gent who attempted armed robbery.

You didn't watch the video then? There's at least one person in support of armed robbery and arguing against self defense.

Watch it....it's very short.
 
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renniks

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became illegal to own the gun after he committed the crime? Thats an unusual way of looking at things.
Not after. IF it was a legally owned gun and he was a permit holder, which is doubtful, it became illegal when he threatened someone with it. It's not a way of looking at things, it's just a fact.
 
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I don't think anyone is arguing against self-defense. I haven't noticed anyone in support of the gent who attempted armed robbery


I'm not an American. My perspective isnt about being righteous - in fact I don't understand how you arrived at that.

I'm pointing out the obvious that surely your community must be concerned about. How is it that someone with such a dubious reputation, can so easily and legally purchase a gun to hold up a store in the first place. Surely as a citizen that must be worrying.

I wasn't aware that he purchased it legally. But someone who has never used a gun in a robbery is capable of using one the next time. Even a person's psychologist isn't omniscient.

One of my studies is in dealing critical incidents. eg an air crash. The process is called a Root Cause Analysis. If you break down this critical incident there are a few root causes. Perhaps that should be the direction of discussion here.

I doubt it. People will still kill people.
 
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Zoii

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You didn't watch the video then? There's at least one person in support of armed robbery and arguing against self defense.

Watch it....it's very short.
Oh yes on the video. I don't think anyone here agrees with her position though. Its terrible losing a sibling, but I also feel for the person who killed him. I bet he feels totally traumatised
 
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Ana the Ist

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Oh yes on the video. I don't think anyone here agrees with her position though. Its terrible losing a sibling, but I also feel for the person who killed him. I bet he feels totally traumatised

The brother's reaction was understandable...

The sister's reaction was quite different though. She didn't appear shocked or upset that her brother was putting a gun in people's faces and stealing their money....she was upset that someone defended themselves from being victimized.

So if you want to look at root causes, perhaps you should consider the mentality of "it's ok to victimize people and wrong of them to defend themselves" and how someone acquires that mentality.

It seems to me that without that, the guns aren't a problem in this case.
 
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HannahT

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I’m not. He was guilty and should be punished.

Not killed. Is being killed the only answer to crime?

Why would you think or ask such a question? Everyone knows the answer to that. The sister's response to their sibling actually robbing the store? "OH WELL!" It would just crazy to think her attitude is the only answer to being robbed.

You are taking risk when you pull a robbery like this. You have no idea if the person you are trying to rob has a gun also.

If someone had to be killed this circumstance? I would hope it is the criminal, and not the innocent.
 
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HannahT

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It became illegal to own the gun after he committed the crime? Thats an unusual way of looking at things.

Anyway - I'll leave the thread. Ive added my perspective, so thats sufficient.

Unfortunately, Zoii he may not have had the gun legally. The city I grew up by? To this day they still have major issues with illegal guns, and the person that robbed the store? If I may generalize here for a moment - tend to be the ones that use them, because they can dispose of the evidence. They use them for revenge for gang members also - disposable illegal guns.
 
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