Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.
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Christian Gedge
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Well both I suppose. I doubt that blood lines over 2000 years were racially pure, but general Jewish populations show shared Middle Eastern ancestry, or am I wrong in saying that?
What do Jews themselves say concerning their DNA?
What do Jews themselves say concerning their DNA?
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In common with the ubiquity of all bloodlines and DNA across the entire human race, they agree with and applaud that reality regarding their own DNA, confirmed both genetically and mathematically.
Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage
Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity
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I would like to see every modern Orthodox Jew come to faith in Christ.
However, in my humble opinion modern Dispensational Theology, and modern Zionism have had a negative impact on this goal.
Does Romans 11 teach a massive in-gathering of Jews into the Church during the end times?
David H. J. Gay's exegesis below provides an answer to that question. His understanding of the chapter is the same as mine.
Take a listen to it when you are on a road trip, or have some time.
03 - The Exegesis
I love you, Brother.
.
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My goodness, DNA? That should be the last thing Jews and Christians should be focusing on.
What sayeth the Scriptures:
4 of the Sons of Jacob were born by maidservants.
5 Sons were born of Leah,
2 sons were born of Rachel, making 8 that were born of Jacob's 2 wives
and 4 from maidservants.
3 of the Sons of Leah and Rachel would later comprise the Southern Nation/Kingdom of Judah, the Jews:
Levi, Judah and Benjamin[Paul's tribe, making him a Hebrew of Hebrews and a Jew but also a Roman citizen, thus giving both the Jews and Romans a proverbial headache ]
Leah: 1 Reuben 2 Simeon 3 Levi 4 Judah 9 Issachar 10 Zebulun
Rachel 11 Joseph 12 Benjamin
Bilhah [Rachel's maid] 5 Dan 6 Naphtali
Zilpah [Leah's maid] 7 Gad 8 Asher
===============================
12 Tribes of Revelation 7. The tribe of Dan and half tribe from Joseph, Ephraim are missing.
1. Judah = "I will praise the Lord" 2. Reuben = "He has looked on me" 3. Gad = "Granted good fortune" 4. Asher = "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali = "My wrestling" 6. Manasseh = "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon = "God hears me" 8. Levi = "Joined to me" 9. Issachar = "Purchased Me" 10. Zebulun = "Dwelling" 11. Joseph = "God will add to me" 12. Benjamin = "Son of His right hand"
12 Original Tribes. Benjamin was born last and listed last here and in Revelation
1. Reuben = "He has looked upon me" 2. Simeon = "God hears me" 3. Levi = "Joined to me" 4. Judah = "I praise the Lord" 5. Dan = "God has judged me and heard my voice" 6. Naphtali = "my wrestling" 7. Gad = "granted good fortune" 8. Asher = "happy am I" 9. Issachar = "purchased me" 10. Zebulun = "a dwelling" 11. Joseph = "God will add to me" 12 Benjamin = "son of His right hand"
1. Reuben 2. Simeon 3. Levi 4. Judah 5. Dan 6. Naphtali 7. Gad 8. Asher 9. Issachar 10. Zebulun 11. Joseph 12 Benjamin
The covenantle parable in Luke 16 featuring Moses, Abraham and Lazarus should be one of the most read and studied books of the NT. It show the OC be tormented and the NC being in the bosom of Abraham:
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Judah and 5 brothers born of Leah
the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that t
LUKE 16:27
"Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "
Yielding himself hey may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.
The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
==================================
The Two Houses Of Israel - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy
There is a general error among most Christians and a lot of Jews regarding the identity of the children of Israel. Because of a general lack of historical understanding, most Christians believe that the Jews are ALL of the people chosen by God in the Old Testament. Additionally, many Christians believe that they belong to an unrelated group known biblically as "Gentiles." In this article, we are going to show from the Scriptures that both of these conclusions are founded on incorrect assumptions.
First, let's examine the Scriptures to see who God chose as His own special people:
EXODUS 19:3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." (NKJV)
Who were (and who are) the children of Israel? Here are two passages about the exodus from Egypt: one from a Christian source, and one from a Jewish source. They share a common problem, as the following comments show:
From the Christian web site EndTimes.org:
Moses - Great prophet of God called to lead the Jews out of Egypt to the land that God promised his forefather Abraham. . . . Moses led the Jews through the desert for 40 years while God purged out the unbelievers.
From the Jewish web site PassoverCentral.com:
Historically, Passover commemorates the Exodus from Egypt after 400 years of slavery. The name “Passover” refers to when G-d “passed over” the houses of the Jews when he was slaying the firstborns of Egypt.
Did you see a problem with those comments? They reflect a common misconception about WHO the children of Israel actually are. The Bible tells us very specifically who comprised the "children of Israel." They are listed in several places in the book of Genesis.
The children of Jacob, who was renamed Israel (Gen. 32:28), were:
(1) Reuben
(2) Simeon
(3) Levi
(4) Judah
(5) Zebulun
(6) Issachar
(7) Dan
(8) Gad
(9) Asher
(10) Naphtali
(11) Joseph
(12) Benjamin
(As a side note, because of Jacob's deathbed adoption of Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh as his own recorded in Genesis 48, he effectively gave a double inheritance to his favorite son Joseph. Therefore, the Bible sometimes lists 13 tribes, with the duo of Ephraim and Manasseh replacing their father Joseph.)
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Genesis 17
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Genesis 34
24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city.
Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Circumcision was applicable to every male, ethnic or nonethnic, foreign or domestic, slave or free, servant or son; without distinction; who was willing to submit to, and comply with, God's covenant, in faith and obedience.
Faith and obedience. The two genes of spiritual DNA.
The only DNA that has ever qualified for covenant coverage.
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This great covenantle parable in Luke 16 shows 2 genes of DNA
One of Moses/Law/Death
One of Abraham/Faith/Life.
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
"The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." (p. 863, "Purple").
In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: "The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39).The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." (p. 702, "Linen").
The clothing of the rich man identifies him symbolically with the people of Israel, chosen by God to be His special people. They were called to be a witness to the nations surrounding them, confirming the blessings available to those who would obey God and keep His laws.
LUKE 16:
19 "There was a certain rich Man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day." [Revelation 18:16]
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.' "
26 " 'And besides all this, between us and ye there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot,
nor can those from there pass to us.' "
The Rich Man/Judah is the "King" and here is His "Queen"/Jerusalem/Judea:
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment and sorrow.
That in her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'
16 and saying,
Woe! woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed with fine linen and purple,
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Yes it is.
The orthodox view of Partial Preterism believe much of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70ad and was "A parousia, not THE parousia.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/index.html
70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)
Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
===================================
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Partial Preterism:
Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
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All Christians should read Josephus' acct of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.
This version of it is a favorite site of mine for that:
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived.........
Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.............
The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins;
Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory. There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection. Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain
Concerning the Temple, our LORD had foretold, particularly, that, notwithstanding their wonderful dimensions, there should "not be left one stone upon another that should not be thrown down;"
and, accordingly, it is recorded, in the Talmud, and by Maimonides, that Terentius Rufus, captain of the army of Titus, absolutely ploughed up the foundations of the Temple with a ploughshare.
Now, also, was literally fulfilled that prophecy of Micah- "Therefore shall Zion, for your sakes (i. e. for your wickedness,) be ploughed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the LORD's house as the high places of the forest." (Micah iii. 12)
==============================
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Preterism - separating the orthodox from the heretical.
That has been a source of contention confusion concerning that in a lot of threads.
Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between Partial Preterism and Full Preterism sites/commentaries escpecially when it comes to what prophecies were fulfilled at the event of 70AD Jerusalem
Are Christians allowed to view 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18 without being labeled "full preterist"?
The Jewish historian Josephus wrote about that destruction and it almost mirrors that great City in Revelation, especially according to Luke's 70AD Jerusalem/Temple discourse......
Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10
Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 11:2/13:10]
Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)
Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's
==========================
Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)
Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)
==============================
John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)
Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)....................
Yes.
That has been a source of contention confusion concerning that in a lot of threads.
Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between Partial Preterism and Full Preterism sites/commentaries escpecially when it comes to what prophecies were fulfilled at the event of 70AD Jerusalem
Are Christians allowed to view 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18 without being labeled "full preterist"?
The Jewish historian Josephus wrote about that destruction and it almost mirrors that great City in Revelation, especially according to Luke's 70AD Jerusalem/Temple discourse......
Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10
Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 11:2/13:10]
Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)
Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's
==========================
Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)
Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)
==============================
John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)
Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)....................
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Yes. Their are quite a few conservative Christians who have taken that viewpoint.
However, be willing to take a look at the verses in the passage that do not seem to fit 70 AD.
If someone is promoting the idea that we are now living in the New Heavens, and the New Earth, is that a different matter?
.
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No - that's still a partial preterist view. Adam Maarschalk is a partial preterist (and so is N.T. Wright). Here are links to their teaching on the topic of Heaven & Earth - New Heavens/New Earth
We Now Live in the New Heavens and the New Earth
The following study will examine:
En archē ēn ho logos.
The following study will examine:
- Matthew 5:17-18
- Matthew 24:35
- How Isaiah and Jeremiah spoke of the old and new heavens & earth
- II Peter 3:7-13 (compared with Galatians 4:9 and Colossians 2:20)
- Quotes from Eusebius (265 – 340 AD), Bishop John Lightfoot (1601-1675), John Owen (1721), Jonathan Edwards (1739), and Charles Spurgeon (1865) regarding “the heavens and the earth” as covenant language in Scripture. - quoted from link above.
En archē ēn ho logos.
John’s opening line must be one of the most famous initial sentences in all literature, ranking with Shakespeare’s ‘If music be the food of love, play on’, or even Melville’s dark and haunting ‘Call me Ishmael.’ And it is obvious, even at first glance, why John’s simple opening is so profound:
It echoes the first line of Genesis.
John’s opening move is, of course, bold. It borders (one might think) on blasphemy. Are you really sitting down to write a new Genesis?
‘Yes!’ replies John, ‘because that is the truth to which I am bearing witness. I am telling a story about something that has happened in which heaven and earth have come together in a whole new way, about the long and dark fulfillment of the creator’s purposes for his creation.’
‘And,’ John might continue, ‘since I am writing in the tradition of the Hebrew Bible, it won’t surprise you that I am telling this story of creation and new creation in terms of the fulfillment of the divine purpose in, for, and through Israel.’
Thus, if we were to bring our categories of history and eschatology—let alone theology itself—to John, I think this is how he would anchor and expound them: By ‘history,’ he might mean the course of events in the Creator’s world, and by ‘eschatology’ he might mean the ultimate purposes of the Creator for his world, to be accomplished through his purposes for Israel.
And, in both cases, again obviously, these purposes are laid bare, for John and for the other early Christians, in the events concerning Jesus of Nazareth. ~ What John Really Meant: The Gospel of the New Temple
It echoes the first line of Genesis.
John’s opening move is, of course, bold. It borders (one might think) on blasphemy. Are you really sitting down to write a new Genesis?
‘Yes!’ replies John, ‘because that is the truth to which I am bearing witness. I am telling a story about something that has happened in which heaven and earth have come together in a whole new way, about the long and dark fulfillment of the creator’s purposes for his creation.’
‘And,’ John might continue, ‘since I am writing in the tradition of the Hebrew Bible, it won’t surprise you that I am telling this story of creation and new creation in terms of the fulfillment of the divine purpose in, for, and through Israel.’
Thus, if we were to bring our categories of history and eschatology—let alone theology itself—to John, I think this is how he would anchor and expound them: By ‘history,’ he might mean the course of events in the Creator’s world, and by ‘eschatology’ he might mean the ultimate purposes of the Creator for his world, to be accomplished through his purposes for Israel.
And, in both cases, again obviously, these purposes are laid bare, for John and for the other early Christians, in the events concerning Jesus of Nazareth. ~ What John Really Meant: The Gospel of the New Temple
Likewise - in order to view Scripture this way, one would have to be willing to put aside their idea that God destroys the literal earth at His return (gathering His believers - and destroying all creation and those people that didn't adhere to following Him).
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From the Statement of Faith for this Forum.
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
Mar 10:29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
Mar 10:30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.
.
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What does that have to do with 70AD Jerusalem being in Revelation 18?
Look at the SOP for this board concerning Partial Preterism..........
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted
Mat 23:35
“that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
==========================
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Rev 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
Partial Preterism SOP
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
- Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
- The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
- Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
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My main contention is, can a Partial Preterist view 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18 and still be considered within orthodox Preterism/Amill....YES or NO
Holford quotes Josephus, who also confirms 70AD Jerusalem is in Revelation, [as does Luke 21]
I will be glad to discuss that on my Josephus/O D/Revelation thread.
JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
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Even if you infer the "Parousia" to have been non-visibly, spiritually fulfilled in 70 AD, you can still await the visibly, bodily, physical 2C @ FJ = Rev 20:9+
The OD never once uses the key word "anastasis" (up-standing) for The Resurrection
You have to read into the text to apply it to the (general) "anastasis" @ 2C, FJ, Rev 20:9+
As the SoF says:
From the Statement of Faith for this Forum.
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
Resurrection = anastasis != OD = ParousiaI look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
Now, separately, maybe you can conflate them, that is one possibility
But you have to force them together, and Divinely Guided human history on earth is well known to "repeat itself", one event foreshadows & presages another. So we wouldn't be very surprised if a 70 AD "Parousia" shared many general characteristics & features with the future "Anastasis" @ 2C, FJ, Rev 20:9+
I don't think it has been proved that Parousia = Anastasis
SoF is about Anastasis (future)
So once could in theory apply the Parousia to the past (70 AD), as long as they keep the Anastasis for the future (Rev 20:9+) ?
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- Aug 6, 2017
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- Beast survives Babylon's Armageddon = 70 AD
- 10 horns ravage Babylon & persecute saints = 10 Christian-persecuting emperors from Domitian to Diocletian & Julian the Apostate (who also oppressed the Jews & suppressed their Kitios & Bar Kochba rebellions)
- Beast falls to Christ = 4th century conversion of pagan empire
- Millennium = Byzantine empire (fits suspiciously well)
- Gog & Magog = modern era (fits suspiciously well)
- Fire from Heaven = future (per SoF)
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If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:
C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).
Honestly, the hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).
COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"
(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth"
Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:
Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me
(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth
Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.
Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's judgments upon nations and individuals
Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD
Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth
So, getting back to the use of the phrase as it was used by Jesus and the writer of Hebrews, we can see that Jesus didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.
Full Preterism Not Required.
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