Was it really the spirit of Samuel that talked with King Saul or something else?

mmksparbud · Oct 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
To be raised from the dead is to be resurrected. Samuel was not resurrected. He appeared, spoke, and left. That is not being raised from the dead.

Well, make up your mind---was it Samuel or not? Samuel was dead---and he appears and speaks---but he is not resurrected from the dead. OK---So still, this witch has the power to have a dead person, appear when commanded to do. In order to appear and speak and move, there has to be a brain, without a brain, nothing can happen. So this witch can "bring up" a dead person that has a brain and mouth to speak with. It is a familiar, something to which God has forbidden any follower of His to talk to. But you say it is not a Satan produced apparition. And he was not resurrected from the dead for this---but he is very definitely dead. Not from Satan, but then it must be from God. So God is working through someone He forbids anyone to talk to?

GingerBeer · Oct 31, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Well, make up your mind---was it Samuel or not?

It was Samuel, the story says so. It ought not be confusing to any reader who pays attention to what the story says.

chilehed · Oct 31, 2019

I'm not sure. It certainly could have really been him, because the text says is was and God certainly is able to send someone back in that manner, and I'm inclined to think that it was.

I will admit, however, the possibility that it was some sort of demonic spirit, and that the text says it was Samuel because the people there thought it was him.

So I'll bet 19 to 1 that it was Samuel.

GingerBeer · Oct 31, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Samuel was dead---and he appears and speaks---but he is not resurrected from the dead.

That much is correct. Samuel is dead, he is still dead now. He appears and speaks to Saul. That is what the story says. It says Samuel spoke and it was Saul who heard him.

(I Samuel 28:15-19)
[15] Then Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? Saul answered, I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do. [16] And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? [17] The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. [18] Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. [19] Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.

As any reader can see Samuel said a lot to Saul.

GingerBeer · Oct 31, 2019

chilehed said:
I will admit, however, the possibility that it was some sort of demonic spirit, and that the text says it was Samuel because the people there thought it was him.

I will tell you why some, not all but some, say it was a demon or something else that was pretending to be Samuel. It is because some Christians believe that when a person is dead they are unconscious, effectively nonexistent, and hence cannot rise up and talk to anybody. So those Christians, because of their beliefs about the nature of death and the state of the dead, cannot accept what the story says and need to invent an explanation that will fit into their system of beliefs.

That is the main motive for such Christians. They want to preserve their belief about "soul sleep" and "annihilation" with respect to human beings. The annihilation comes at the last judgement and applies, according to the Christians who teach it, to the reprobate who are cast into the lake of fire where the smoke of their torment ascends forever. Apparently it is only the smoke of their torment that lasts forever they themselves burn away in some unspecified amount of time after entering the lake of fire.

mmksparbud · Oct 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
I will tell you why some, not all but some, say it was a demon or something else that was pretending to be Samuel. It is because some Christians believe that when a person is dead they are unconscious, effectively nonexistent, and hence cannot rise up and talk to anybody. So those Christians, because their beliefs about the nature of death and the state of the dead, cannot accept what the story says and need to invent an explanation that will fit into their system of beliefs.

That is the main motive for such Christians. They want to preserve their belief about "soul sleep" and "annihilation" with respect to human beings. The annihilation comes at the last judgement and applies, according to the Christians who teach it, to the reprobate who are cast into the lake of fire where the smoke of their torment ascends forever. Apparently it is only the smoke of their torment that lasts forever they themselves burn away in some unspecified amount of time after entering the lake of fire.

So then you do believe that this is Samuel ---reason I asked is because you also said this

GingerBeer said:
The story does not say that the medium had the power to raise people from the dead. Jesus rose from the dead so did Lazarus and they were flesh and bone living human beings after being raised. Samuel was not raised from the dead. He was something else. The story in 1 Samuel 28 does not say he was raised from the dead.

So, you do not believe it is an apparition from Satan---you do believe it is Samuel, and yet you said this is not Samuel but something else. Yes---that is clear as mud! He is not resurrected from the dead, but he talks and thinks asks questions, like why have you brought me up? Who is the who that has the power to bring up the dead and yet they are not be resurrected? The question asked is this "something else" from God or not? That should be a simple answer. After all, God refused to answer Saul, so who has the power to make God talk to Saul, when He doesn't want to?

GingerBeer · Oct 31, 2019

mmksparbud said:
So then you do believe that this is Samuel

The story says it is Samuel so I believe that is what the story says and intends a reader to understand.

mmksparbud · Oct 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
The story says it is Samuel so I believe that is what the story says and intends a reader to understand.

Well you don't seem to understand for you say it is Samuel and then you say he is "something else."
The story doesn't say it is Samuel. It says that Saul, from the description that the witch gave him,
perceived it was Samuel---thought it was him.

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Again---who has the power to make Samuel talk to Saul, when God has refused to answer him?
You have no clue. Thanks for the discussion, interesting, but you have no idea what is going on. Bye.

RDKirk · Oct 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Just because the Bible says it was Samuel does not mean it was the real Samuel.

"Just because the Bible says...doesn't mean that was...."

Is that your normal method of biblical interpretation?

GingerBeer · Oct 31, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Well you don't seem to understand for you say it is Samuel and then you say he is "something else."

My message says that Samuel was not raised from the dead meaning that he was not resurrected. Samuel was not bodily present. The "something else" is Samuel's soul, or spirit, and has no implication that the person to whom Saul spoke and who replied to Saul was anyone but Samuel.

GingerBeer · Oct 31, 2019

RDKirk said:
"Just because the Bible says...doesn't mean that was...."

Is that your normal method of biblical interpretation?

It may be whenever the scriptures say something that contradicts the doctrine that "soul sleep" Christians teach. There is an influence present in the teaching that your interlocutor accepts and that influence is the teaching and writings of Ellen G White.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
I saw it before I wrote my message. Post #25 makes a nonsense of the story. It makes a liar of the author of the story. It's way too easy to proclaim sola scriptura as one's operating principle and then ignore it entirely when it interferes with a doctrine. The passage does not give even a tiny hint that it is "fake Samuel" that Saul consults.

This is a long quote and I do not blame any who skip over it. The story is told this way

(I Samuel 28:1-25)
[1] In those days the Philistines gathered their forces for war, to fight against Israel. And Achish said to David, Understand that you and your men are to go out with me in the army. [2] David said to Achish, Very well, you shall know what your servant can do. And Achish said to David, Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life.

[3] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land. [4] The Philistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem. And Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa. [5] When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. [6] And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. [7] Then Saul said to his servants, Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.

[8] So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you. [9] The woman said to him, Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death? [10] But Saul swore to her by the Lord, As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing. [11] Then the woman said, Whom shall I bring up for you? He said, Bring up Samuel for me. [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, Why have you deceived me? You are Saul. [13] The king said to her, Do not be afraid. What do you see? And the woman said to Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth. [14] He said to her, What is his appearance? And she said, An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe. And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

[15] Then Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? Saul answered, I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do. [16] And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? [17] The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbour, David. [18] Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. [19] Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.

[20] Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night. [21] And the woman came to Saul, and when she saw that he was terrified, she said to him, Behold, your servant has obeyed you. I have taken my life in my hand and have listened to what you have said to me. [22] Now therefore, you also obey your servant. Let me set a morsel of bread before you; and eat, that you may have strength when you go on your way. [23] He refused and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, urged him, and he listened to their words. So he arose from the earth and sat on the bed. [24] Now the woman had a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly killed it, and she took flour and kneaded it and baked unleavened bread of it, [25] and she put it before Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they rose and went away that night.
The story says it is Samuel and not even a hint of fakery is present. If a reader decides that it could not possibly be Samuel and must have been a fake of some kind then that is the reader's doing it isn't because the story says anything to lend credence to the reader's theory. The reader has set him or her self above what is written and decided that the story cannot possibly be true as it is written.

Here is part of an article that explains this:

"Does the narrator say Samuel appeared?

A writer can show a character’s views and perceptions either in that character’s own words (direct speech) or in a focalized narration (free indirect speech), but the effect is very similar. Even if the character’s views and perceptions are wrong, the dependable, reliable biblical narrator has the flexibility to use focalization when it suits a purpose, such as letting the reader enter a character’s “mind and . . . secret motives or ‘participate in the experience with the protagonist.’”70 These shifts in point of view can be marked by the use of hinneh (“behold”),71 but also “verbs of perception (‘to see,’ ‘to hear,’ ‘to know’) can be important indicators of specific focalizations,” though “the context is decisive.”72 This focalization technique

This focalization technique is apparent elsewhere in 1 Samuel. For example, in 4:5-11 the Philistines hear a shout and know (verbs of perception) that a god has come into the camp, but in fact this is merely their perspective: it is not a god but the ark of Yahweh. In this case the narrator renders their perception by quoting their direct speech in contradiction of what he has told us really happened, but elsewhere the narrator also uses focalized narrations (free indirect speech) to reflect a character’s perception. For example, in 1 Samuel 5 the narrator describes the idol of the Philistine god Dagon as if it were a person. The description adopts the perspective of the Philistines. The narrator tells us that they enter the temple and then the narration cuts (or focalizes) to their point of view: “and hinneh (behold, KJV), Dagon was fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of Yahweh! And Dagon’s head and both the palms of his hands were broken off on the threshold. Only Dagon was left to him” (1 Sam 5:473). Here a stone idol is described as if it were a living ’elohim by a writer who does not actually think it is, but wants to imitate the Philistine point of view. The effect is to let the reader experience the consternation of the Philistines, in a way that mocks their god from within their religious paradigm."

Article source:
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3311&context=auss

RDKirk · Oct 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
It may be whenever the scriptures say something that contradicts the doctrine that "soul sleep" Christians teach. There is an influence present in the teaching that your interlocutor accepts and that influence is the teaching and writings of Ellen G White.

I believe that the OT writers significantly predate Ellen G White, so I don't think they were influenced by her.

mmksparbud · Oct 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
It may be whenever the scriptures say something that contradicts the doctrine that "soul sleep" Christians teach. There is an influence present in the teaching that your interlocutor accepts and that influence is the teaching and writings of Ellen G White.

EGW is not the one that equates death with sleep:

Job 7:21 "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."
Job 14:10-12
"But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.
Mark 5:39
And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."
Luke 8:52-53
Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.
1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.
Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2 Samuel 7:12
"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.
1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.
1 Kings 14:20
The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.
1 Kings 16:6
And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.
1 Kings 22:50
And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 14:16
So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 15:7
And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 16:20
So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.
2 Kings 20:21
Verse Concepts
So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.
2 Kings 21:18
And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.
Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Job 14:13-15
"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.
Psalm 17:15
Verse Concepts
As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
Daniel 12:3
"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Luke 16:22-23
"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Jeremiah 51:57
"I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.
Psalm 7:3-5
O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.
Psalm 76:5
The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.
Jeremiah 51:39
"When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2019

GingerBeer said:
I will tell you why some, not all but some, say it was a demon or something else that was pretending to be Samuel. It is because some Christians believe that when a person is dead they are unconscious, effectively nonexistent, and hence cannot rise up and talk to anybody. So those Christians, because their beliefs about the nature of death and the state of the dead, cannot accept what the story says and need to invent an explanation that will fit into their system of beliefs.

That is the main motive for such Christians. They want to preserve their belief about "soul sleep" and "annihilation" with respect to human beings. The annihilation comes at the last judgement and applies, according to the Christians who teach it, to the reprobate who are cast into the lake of fire where the smoke of their torment ascends forever. Apparently it is only the smoke of their torment that lasts forever they themselves burn away in some unspecified amount of time after entering the lake of fire.

I don't believe in full head on soul sleep. I believe that the wicked go through long periods of sleep and they are awakened at certain points in time. This is why Lazarus and the Rich-man story is a real account. The rich-man really was experiencing hell, and he really was talking with Abraham. So no. My motivation is not based on interpreting this story in light of traditional soul sleep.

mmksparbud · Oct 31, 2019

It is not EGW that declares the state of the dead but the bible:

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Isaiah 60:12
"For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish, And the nations will be utterly ruined.
Isaiah 34:2
For the LORD'S indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter.
Exodus 22:20
"He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed.
Matt 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matt 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matt 13:40-42
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
2 Thes 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
We never were created immortal. We are given immortality. Not even Adam and Eve were immortal--
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
They were driven from the garden to prevent them eating of the tree and living forever in sin. After the resurrection we get the tree back:
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Nowhere does the bible say eternal life will be given to the lost. We are not going to shovel fruit from the tree of life to the lost so they can live forever in torment!
We are given immortality as a gift from God.
Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Only the Godhead is immortal:
Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
• Isaiah 66:22-24
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
• Malachi 4:1-3
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”
• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB
"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”
• Psalms 68:2
"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."
• Job 4:8-9
“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”
• Psalms 92:7 NLT
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."
• Deuteronomy 7:10
“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”
• Psalms 1:6
“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”
• Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”
• Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:
A. Destruction of the Devil:
• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19
12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":
• 1 Corinthians 15:26
“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

mmksparbud · Oct 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I don't believe in full head on soul sleep. I believe that the wicked go through long periods of sleep and they are awakened at certain points in time. This is why Lazarus and the Rich-man story is a real account. The rich-man really was experiencing hell, and he really was talking with Abraham. So no. My motivation is not based on interpreting this story in light of traditional soul sleep.

Lazarus was a parable.

Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2019

RDKirk said:
"Just because the Bible says...doesn't mean that was...."

Is that your normal method of biblical interpretation?

When other biblical facts contradict that this was not the real Samuel... yes.
In other words, Scripture has to be read as a whole.

Also, the writer is adopting the character's perspective. This not a new concept even in the book of 1 Samuel.

Check out my post #52 to see a short snippet of an article that explains this.

RaymondG · Oct 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Just because the Bible says it was Samuel does not mean it was the real Samuel.

Just because the bible said it.....doesnt make it true? This is a dangerous slippery sloppy that I would not create for others. It would be better to create new interpretations than to imply that what is plainly said, does not have to be true as written.

RaymondG · Oct 31, 2019

Kaon said:
Disturbing a demon's "rest" is serious business. By definition, demons are to have no rest, so the "deals" it has to make to get "an hour of rest" were expensive.

You are adding exceptions to the bible that are not there. Are demons to not have rest? Or are they to have rest when deals are made for it?

Kaon said:
Which is why sleep (a carnal thing) is mentioned. It is appointed for a man to die once, then judgment. If Saul was redeemed and allowed, he would appear like Other "dead" human men have appeared.

Why use the Die Once argument, when we know of those who have not die, and those who are assumed to have died twice? (lazarus)

Was it really the spirit of Samuel that talked with King Saul or something else?

Was it really the spirit of Samuel that talked with King Saul or something else?

Yes. It really was the spirit of Samuel.

No. It was a demon.

No. The witch was merely lying.

I don't know.

Other. Please explain.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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