"God Won't Make You Choose Him" =/= "Unborn Babies Go To Heaven"?

AntiVillain

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It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy (which I believe in, BTW).
But wait, doesn't that mean He's choosing for them? Doesn't it contradict that whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?
 
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Albion

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No, that would be a misunderstanding of how free-will works. However, the rest of what you referred to remains perplexing. But that's always been the case and no one really has a solid answer, in part because the Bible doesn't answer those questions and there is no special reason for it to have done so.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy (which I believe in, BTW).
But wait, isn't He choosing for them? Doesn't that contradict the whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?
This has been greatly contested for over a thousand years.

Why is it so ?

Look in Scripture, and see if anyone unclean (gulty, unrighteous?) is permitted to enter heaven ?

Yet everyone wants or hopes or thinks that they will be permitted to enter heaven, or even more that their children will be able to......
 
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Jonaitis

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It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy (which I believe in, BTW).
But wait, isn't He choosing for them? Doesn't that contradict the whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?

AntiVillain,

Where does Scripture say that children are innocent until they reach a certain age? I find many passages that say that we are born sinful and condemned and alienated from God. We were children of wrath by nature (Ephesians 2:3).

Do I believe God condemns those who die in their infancy? It is not mine to call, but it is possible for God to regenerate and efficaciously bring them to a saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ by way of special revelation of some sort, hidden in the secret will and purpose of God. However, we should not be offended that God has every right to punish them, if that was his will. We do not deserve anything, not even mercy. We are all children of Adam, who fell in and with him.
 
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eleos1954

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It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy (which I believe in, BTW).
But wait, isn't He choosing for them? Doesn't that contradict the whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 4:17

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

With these in mind ... any who are mentally incapable (babies & the unborn/others with mental impairments) any who do not know what sin is ... will be saved. Nor do the same have an awareness of "choice" ... so I believe they receive the gift of salvation unconditionally.

How can one be held accountable if they are unaware of what sin is?

Thy will be done.
 
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AvisG

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However, we should not be offended that God has every right to punish them, if that was his will. We do not deserve anything, not even mercy. We are all children of Adam, who fell in and with him.
As I often do, I find that the Eastern Orthodox hold a position on this issue with which I agree:

In the Orthodox Faith, the term “original sin” refers to the “first” sin of Adam and Eve. As a result of this sin, humanity bears the “consequences” of sin, the chief of which is death. Here the word “original” may be seen as synonymous with “first.” Hence, the “original sin” refers to the “first sin” in much the same way as “original chair” refers to the “first chair.”

In the West, humanity likewise bears the “consequences” of the “original sin” of Adam and Eve. However, the West also understands that humanity is likewise “guilty” of the sin of Adam and Eve. The term “Original Sin” here refers to the condition into which humanity is born, a condition in which guilt as well as consequence is involved.

In the Orthodox Christian understanding, while humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death.

Source: St. Augustine & Original Sin - Questions & Answers
I'm not trying to change or challenge your views, but some study of the origin of the doctrine of original sin (and specifically Augustine's influence) might be worthwhile. I found this book to be quite good: https://www.amazon.com/Adam-Fall-Or...71961800&rnid=133141011&s=digital-text&sr=1-5
 
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Jonaitis

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As I often do, I find that the Eastern Orthodox hold a position on this issue with which I agree:

In the Orthodox Faith, the term “original sin” refers to the “first” sin of Adam and Eve. As a result of this sin, humanity bears the “consequences” of sin, the chief of which is death. Here the word “original” may be seen as synonymous with “first.” Hence, the “original sin” refers to the “first sin” in much the same way as “original chair” refers to the “first chair.”

In the West, humanity likewise bears the “consequences” of the “original sin” of Adam and Eve. However, the West also understands that humanity is likewise “guilty” of the sin of Adam and Eve. The term “Original Sin” here refers to the condition into which humanity is born, a condition in which guilt as well as consequence is involved.

In the Orthodox Christian understanding, while humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death.

Source: St. Augustine & Original Sin - Questions & Answers
I'm not trying to change or challenge your views, but some study of the origin of the doctrine of original sin (and specifically Augustine's influence) might be worthwhile. I found this book to be quite good: https://www.amazon.com/Adam-Fall-Original-Sin-Perspectives-ebook/dp/B00OLXDK6S/ref=sr_1_5?keywords="original+sin"&qid=1571961800&rnid=133141011&s=digital-text&sr=1-5

I've heard different positions, including the Eastern Orthodox. I cannot agree with it as it is dangerous to the gospel and all that it is founded on.
 
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bling

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It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy (which I believe in, BTW).
But wait, doesn't that mean He's choosing for them? Doesn't it contradict that whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?
This is no small subject and there appear to be verses on both sides of the issue.

The Bible does not say after Adam and Eve sinned: “Man’s nature changed”, or “The sin of Adam and Eve was pasted on”. It does say the knowledge of good and evil came into the world and does not use the word “fall” to describe this.

Is knowledge bad in and of itself?

To refute the idea: “Children and anyone else that has not reached mature adulthood have not sinned yet and do not need saving, since they have done nothing wrong. They are in a safe condition.” Using:

Rom 3:23 says "for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God".

“All have sinned”, so is Paul addressing an unborn child with that statement? Paul did not say we “all” inherited Adam and Eve’s sin, but all have (actually) sinned. It also does not say we inherited even a “sinful nature”, but talks about knowledge, so does knowledge=nature? “All” does not have to include everyone including unborn children, but could be referring to all of us (whom Paul is addressing at that time Christians who can understand his letter).

If a child does not sin than they are in a safe state not needing saving, since they are not lost.

Because Adam and Eve sinned prior to fulfilling their earthly objective, in what some would consider than they and as we can see all of us will need additional help in fulfilling our objective. God will do anything and allow anything to help willing individuals fulfill their objective and that everything includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell, and even allowing humans to sin.

Babies or anyone who dies without the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective would enter heaven lacking Godly type Love, but would have a wonderful obedient child to wonderful parent type love.

There is much more to say, but you can chew on this.
 
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But wait, doesn't that mean He's choosing for them? Doesn't it contradict that whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?

Bible says eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

If baby is righteous, he will get the life. And I think babies have free will.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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It's said that those unable to reach the age of accountability still go to Heaven based on His mercy (which I believe in, BTW).
But wait, doesn't that mean He's choosing for them? Doesn't it contradict that whole free-will thing? And how do they learn the consequences of sin?
No.
It means He bought them back from the curse of death, by His once, for all, Atonement.
Jesus/Yeshua tasted death for every human/Adam soul whose names and DNA code are each and every single one written in the Book of Life, to be born in their season.
In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive....but those who live to know the difference between good and evil, and choose evil, without ever repenting, get their names blotted out of that Book of Life.
Only human beings, not the offspring of the fallen angels who mated with the daughters of Adam before the flood, and after that, as Moses and Enoch write, are written in the Book of Life.
All souls are Mine, says the LORD, in one of the prophets.
IF they live to know good and evil, and choose evil, neglecting the offer of the blood atonement for their sins, then their names get blotted out of the Book of Life.
Once blotted out, it is without remedy.
But in His Mercy, He certainly gives all abundant opportunity to choose Life, and certainly no one will be able to answer a word before Him at the judgement that they did not know, for He is the Light that lights every man that comes into the world....in the hopes that they may seek Him, who came to seek and save the lost.
 
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How can an unborn child sin?

Romans 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

How can an unborn be under the law?


Romans 4:8

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2 Samuel 12:23 New Century Version (NCV)
23 But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”

Did David go to Paradise?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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How can an unborn child sin?

Romans 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

How can an unborn be under the law?


Romans 4:8

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2 Samuel 12:23 New Century Version (NCV)
23 But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”

Did David go to Paradise?
David went to the same place in Sheol below, that all who were waiting for the Atonement promised in Genesis 3:15 to be accomplished once, for all, went to.
Luke 16 shows the souls waiting there, in a place of comfort, but in separation from the Glory of the Father because the Atonement was not yet finished.
It is finished.
Jesus descended, bearing our sins, and bearing the separation from the Father that all Adam was born in, in the Adam flesh, since the fall, and He ascribed/gave them to Azazel (wrongly translated “scapegoat,” in the English, from the Hebrew), and there, Jesus announced to the fallen Watcher angels chained there, and to the the satans in charge there, that it was finished! The purchase price was paid! And the souls were His! He bought them back! -and crushed the Head of Satan.
Then He led those souls who were held captive by Death out of that captivity.
He led Captivity Captive!
He led them all to Paradise above, where the thief on the cross also ascended to, as soon as he died.
Death has no power over the soul of any baby who dies without any sin accounted to them in their own body of flesh, because the Death/separation from the Glory caused by the fall our first father, Adam, is covered by the Once for All Atonement which our Redeemer/Kinsman ransomed us back, by.
Jesus owns every human being soul since the Finished Atonement. He bought every soul back!
So everyone is now clean, as to their souls, until they themselves choose sin. No one goes to Sheol below for Adam’s sin, since the Atonement, but for their own unrepentend of sins.
Babies are clean souls.

Jesus paid the ransom price for their souls. He paid for it all. We are clean and go right to the Father in Paradise if we die before we have understanding of good and evil, and choose to do evil.
Jesus said “call no man unclean whom I have cleansed.” We are all atoned for by the Redeemer/Kinsman!
The Blood of our Redeemer has made us clean. Babies and mental babies are clean and go the Father, at death, to wait for their New Man Creation human being flesh bodies to clothe their souls with, in that Day.

Not one single Adam/human being soul who dies before they know to choose between good and evil, as Adam did in the beginning, descends to that place in Sheol that we see in Luke 16, and in Enoch; and not one human being soul who has died believing the Gospel Truth of Jesus our Savior Ransoming us from the power of sin and Death descends to that place below.
It’s empty, since Jesus led Captivity (Death) captive!
Praise The LORD!
 
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rnmomof7

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AntiVillain,

Where does Scripture say that children are innocent until they reach a certain age? I find many passages that say that we are born sinful and condemned and alienated from God. We were children of wrath by nature (Ephesians 2:3).

Do I believe God condemns those who die in their infancy? It is not mine to call, but it is possible for God to regenerate and efficaciously bring them to a saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ by way of special revelation of some sort, hidden in the secret will and purpose of God. However, we should not be offended that God has every right to punish them, if that was his will. We do not deserve anything, not even mercy. We are all children of Adam, who fell in and with him.


Exactly ..If the scripture is silent we need to stand silent ... The secret things belong to the lord
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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With these in mind ... any who are mentally incapable (babies & the unborn/others with mental impairments) any who do not know what sin is ... will be saved.
"With these in mind?" No. Those things "in mind", picked out , picked apart, Scriptures isolated,
do not indicate what you have posted.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Bible says eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

If baby is righteous, he will get the life. And I think babies have free will.
Even if they did not or do not have 'free will'.... God's Judgment is Perfect and Righteous in every moment, in every case, eternally forever.

What if a child/baby is "unclean"... or an adult even - what happens to the "unclean" according to all Scripture ?
 
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eleos1954

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"With these in mind?" No. Those things "in mind", picked out , picked apart, Scriptures isolated,
do not indicate what you have posted.

sin is transgression of the law .... if one is mentally incapable of knowing/understanding what the law is .... then what would condemn them?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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sin is transgression of the law .... if one is mentally incapable of knowing/understanding what the law is .... then what would condemn them?
Whatever IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH.... (and profits nothing) etc etc etc

Everyone in other words.

They start out "FLESH".

They don't have to think something, do anything, and nothing has to happen for them to be FLESH.
 
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eleos1954

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Whatever IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH.... (and profits nothing) etc etc etc

Everyone in other words.

They start out "FLESH".

They don't have to think something, do anything, and nothing has to happen for them to be FLESH.

Luke 24:39
Jesus Appears to the Disciples
…38“Why are you troubled,” Jesus asked, “and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see— for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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