The righteousness of God in His decre that evil take place.

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He could not accept the fact that nothing can exists apart from the constant “Lordship” of the indwelling Word. “In Him we live and move and have our being” is no different for Lucifer than for us - or a rock or a tree or the smallest particle of matter.
I'm not clear what exactly you mean here. Yes, God created and maintains everything. That's not to say that even matter may not have some " free will". Quantum physics would suggest that it does, but it seems the deeper we go into those rabbit holes the less we actually know. Or rather, we realize how little we know.
To say that God is involved in everything can mean a lot of different things.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
......Yes, God created and maintains everything. That's not to say that even matter may not have some " free will". Quantum physics would suggest that it does, but it seems the deeper we go into those rabbit holes the less we actually know. Or rather, we realize how little we know.
To say that God is involved in everything can mean a lot of different things.
The Word says that everything was created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things exist.

It says that we, and everything else in some way, "have our being" in God.

The Word affirms the total omnipresent providential involvement in all that exists or takes place.

If the Word of God presented creation as being somehow spoken into existence and then allowed to operate on the laws of physics that God decreed (or any other kind internal laws including those pertaining to the free will of men) without His continued personal involvement - then I would believe exactly that.

But the Word of God presents an entirely different picture of God vis a vis His creation.

Whatever "free will" looks like (either in physics or in the choices of men) - that freedom is never without the sovereign involvement of God.

I agree that these things a mystery. But we can solve at least some of the mystery as far as the Word of God sheds light on it. That - as I see it - is quite a bit of light.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Whatever "free will" looks like (either in physics or in the choices of men) - that freedom is never without the sovereign involvement of God.
Again, you have failed to define what sovereign involvement of God entails? Does it mean that God is merely allowing events to happen? Does it mean that God is directing every sin we commit down to what thoughts he causes to enter our minds, and in fact every motion of our bodies? Wouldn't that mean that every act of child abuse was actually carried out by God himself?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We were simply banished from the Garden to live out, learn of, and repent of our self interests gained at the expense of others. God made it clear that putting our will ahead of His was self interest on our part and backed by the self justification that we use toi redefine good and evil to declare ourselves either innocent or not as guilty as others. But all who sin are equally guilty of the original sin... putting our will before God's. There is no need to micro-manage sin.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again, you have failed to define what sovereign involvement of God entails?
I thought I said it pretty well. All things, from rocks to the fibers of my brain, were created by, for, and have their being in God Everything in God and God in everything.

That’s thorough involvement by God. Since God is not constrained by anything other than His decrees that things exist and happen – it is obvious that He is sovereign in them.
Does it mean that God is merely allowing events to happen?
In the case of the choices of men whether they be good or evil, I use the term “allow” myself so no one can say that I believe God to run us like robots or that He is the author of sin.

But God given free will choices obviously mean more than what most people mean when they say “allow” to happen. The same is true for so called natural events.

I’m sure that natural laws are allowed to play out in physical events just as they do in the choices of men. But it is obvious that, since God “fills heaven and earth”, "allowing" things to happen doesn’t really fill the bill when it comes to laying out God’s involvement as it relates to His creation.
Does it mean that God is directing every sin we commit down to what thoughts he causes to enter our minds, and in fact every motion of our bodies?
In some cases yes at least with the thoughts He causes to enter our minds.. The scriptures are filled with examples. The evil thoughts and resultant deeds of Pharaoh and the prophecy from God delivered in the evil comment by Caiaphas come to mind.

As for every thought and motion - I wouldn’t know. I only know what has been given to me.

But if God is omnipresent “in His entirety and without division” as the theologians say – and that includes your muscles, bones and the synapses and chemicals of your brain - good luck doing anything independently of God’s sovereignty.
Wouldn't that mean that every act of child abuse was actually carried out by God himself?
That seems to be the $64,000 question doesn’t it. At least it’s like the ones asked every time the sovereignty of God in sin comes up.

Of course we only have the examples given to us in scripture to draw on - ranging from the original temptation of man, to the evil done Job, to the selling of Joseph, to the crucifixion of Christ, through the activities of anti-Christ and those of Satan at the end of the Millennium.

They are all examples of the sovereignty of God in the evil existing and functioning in His creation. In every case – there is ultimately good that comes of the evil done – even if it isn’t spelled out completely for us.

I, for one, am willing to give God the benefit of the doubt (read have faith in) in the case of the tower than fell on men in Siloam and the blood mixed with the sacrifices to God – on through the Holocaust and even the death of my mother.

The scriptures have given me enough explanation of the sovereignty of God in evil things working for good in the end that I can trust Him though He slay me, as Job would say.

There are others who find it difficult accepting these things without a 100% explanation. As a result they either ignore the fact that God is involved in evil in any way or they use the term “allow” in such a way that it leaves the impression that God just sort of winds things up in creation and then sits back and watches what will happen. Nothing could be farther from what the scriptures spell out for us.

Can I explain it all? No. But then it’s His Word – not mine and I teach the whole council of God.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
................... There is no need to micro-manage sin.
I agreed with your post up until this.

I assume you mean God micro-managing sin?

I wouldn't presume to know what is necessary to do by God unless He tells me.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In some cases yes at least with the thoughts He causes to enter our minds.. The scriptures are filled with examples. The evil thoughts and resultant deeds of Pharaoh and the prophecy from God delivered in the evil comment by Caiaphas come to mind.
Seems to me you're still trying to have your cake and eat it too... You can't claim that God is controlling every action of everything, and then insert: " in some cases. "
Pharaoh is a poor example in my opinion, because he hardened his own heart, and God just used his actions after that. Again, God using the evil that happens to bring about good is very different from God creating evil deeds or thoughts. One is God turning the devil's plans back on him, and the other is God acting like the devil.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I agreed with your post up until this.

I assume you mean God micro-managing sin?
God or man.. no need to nit pick over what is sin or which is greater than another. There is only one sin... putting our will before the will of God.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Animals have free will. They make choices all the time. What sets us apart is self awareness. This leads to interests that benefit self but because of our animal nature it often involves benefits at the expense of others. There is the divide. Can feral man overcome this nature? Yes.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Seems to me you're still trying to have your cake and eat it too...
I'm not trying to have any cake. I'm just relaying what God says in His Word.
... You can't claim that God is controlling every action of everything, and then insert: " in some cases."
renniks said:

Does it mean that God is directing every sin we commit down to what thoughts he causes to enter our minds, and in fact every motion of our bodies?
I said that He is intimately involved in everything.

You said "causes to enter our minds".
I gave you examples of cases where that is true.
Beyond those examples I cannot and would not say.

I would not tell you, for instance, that He "caused" me to write these exact words. I will tell you that He is intimately involved in both my mind and in my body as I write them. The scriptures tell us that and I can do no less.
Pharaoh is a poor example in my opinion, because he hardened his own heart, and God just used his actions after that.

Exodus 4:21

The LORD instructed Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put within your power. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:4
Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay My hand on Egypt, and by mighty acts of judgment I will bring the divisions of My people the Israelites out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 7:13
Still, Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials, that I may perform these miraculous signs of Mine among them,

Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the Israelites go out of his land.

Exodus 14:8
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out with fists raised in defiance.

Exodus 8:32
"But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time as well, and he would not let the people go."

The emphasis the Holy Spirit puts on these events is God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart - not on the fact that Pharaoh hardened his own heart as a result of God's action.
Again, God using the evil that happens to bring about good is very different from God creating evil deeds or thoughts. One is God turning the devil's plans back on him, and the other is God acting like the devil.
God does use evil to bring about good.

God also is said to bring evil things to pass just as He predestined them to happen. That is not to say that He merely watched them come to pass as He knew they would.

For instance God taking great pleasure in bruising His Son and bringing to pass what He predestined to happen just as determined them to happen was not God acting like the devil. That was God acting like God.

I'm just saying that we need to teach the entire council of God in these things and not leave the impression that He is merely a bystander concerning evil things because it's easier for you and more palatable for your readers.

Sure - that's more challenging than the easy way of teaching these things. But it is not good and thorough systematic theology.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God or man.. no need to nit pick over what is sin or which is greater than another. There is only one sin... putting our will before the will of God.
Everyone knows that.
Animals have free will. They make choices all the time. What sets us apart is self awareness. This leads to interests that benefit self but because of our animal nature it often involves benefits at the expense of others. There is the divide.
Again - everyone knows that.
Can feral man overcome this nature? Yes.
Fallen man can do relative good. No one denies that.

But fallen man can do nothing of himself regarding salvation. But then that's an even more controversial subject.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For instance God taking great pleasure in bruising His Son and bringing to pass what He predestined to happen just as determined them to happen was not God acting like the devil. That was God acting like God.
But God did not have to determine things to happen to bring about the crucifixion. All he had to do was foresee what would happen if Jesus placed himself in the right time and place. And that is the Crux of the difference between Calvinism and arminianism. Determinism vs foreknowledge.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
But God did not have to determine things to happen to bring about the crucifixion.
Anyone in this world that goes up against 'authourity' with the same Gospel of the Kingdom Jesus did, would likely find themselves in a similar situation. That was a given since the Garden. Another reason the Church diverted attention from it for they had become one of those authourities.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Seems to me you're still trying to have your cake and eat it too... You can't claim that God is controlling every action of everything, and then insert: " in some cases. "
Pharaoh is a poor example in my opinion, because he hardened his own heart, and God just used his actions after that. Again, God using the evil that happens to bring about good is very different from God creating evil deeds or thoughts. One is God turning the devil's plans back on him, and the other is God acting like the devil.
Jesus gave a good picture of how God works according to His sovereignty and man's free choice. He gave the story about the master going on a long journey and leaving the estate in the hands of his stewards. The master may have left some guidelines about how the estate should be run, but in the main, gave the stewards total freedom to manage the estate without his direct supervision. We see what happened when the master delayed his return, what they did to those he sent to get reports on progress, and what they did to even his own son, whom they killed. Then, at a time unexpected, he returned and the stewards were then to give an account of their actions.

This is an illustration of how God has given mankind total control about how they decide to manage the world and the things in it. But He will return one day and mankind will have to account to Him in the way they conducted themselves. He has left some guidelines, which we find in the Bible, but in the main, we manage ourselves and the world around us without His direct supervision.

Similarly, in the parable of the talents, the talents were handed out for the servants to do as they pleased in order to make a profit and a return to the master. He did not tell them how to use their talents, nor did he directly supervise. But at the end of the period, he came back to see the outcomes. He did not stop the guy with one talent hiding it away, not give he give advice to him that hiding it away was the wrong thing to do. That was left to the servant to decide for himself. But at the end of the time, when accounting was to be done, the ones with the talents were rewarded according to what they did with them.

So, what are we to do? We have the Bible which gives us the guidelines, along with the blessings and consequences of what we decide; and it warns us that one day the Master will return, and we will have to give an account of how we conducted ourselves in terms of the guidelines He provided for us. Until that time, we have total freedom to decide what is best for us in everything that we do.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: renniks
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The LORD instructed Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put within your power. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:4
Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay My hand on Egypt, and by mighty acts of judgment I will bring the divisions of My people the Israelites out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 7:13
Still, Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials, that I may perform these miraculous signs of Mine among them,

Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the Israelites go out of his land.

Exodus 14:8
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out with fists raised in defiance.

Exodus 8:32
"But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time as well, and he would not let the people go."

The emphasis the Holy Spirit puts on these events is God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart - not on the fact that Pharaoh hardened his own heart as a result of God's action.
Three distinct declarations are made with regard to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. First, the text states that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (7:3; 9:12; 10:1,20,27; 11:10; 14:4,8), and the hearts of the Egyptians (14:17). Second, it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (8:15,32; 9:34), that he refused to humble himself (10:3), and that he was stubborn (13:15). Third, the text uses the passive form to indicate that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, without giving any indication as to the source (7:13,14,22; 8:19; 9:7,35).
In the case of Pharaoh, “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” in the sense that God provided the circumstances and the occasion for Pharaoh to be forced to make a decision. God sent Moses to place His demands before Pharaoh. Moses merely announced God’s instructions. God even accompanied His Word with miracles—to confirm the divine origin of the message (cf. Mark 16:20). Pharaoh made up his own mind to resist God’s demands. Of his own accord, he stubbornly refused to comply. Of course, God provided the occasion for Pharaoh to demonstrate his unyielding attitude. If God had not sent Moses, Pharaoh would not have been faced with the dilemma of whether to release the Israelites. So God was certainly the instigator and initiator. But He was not the author of Pharaoh’s defiance.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But God did not have to determine things to happen to bring about the crucifixion.
I have no idea what God did or did not have to do. All I know is what it says He did.
All he had to do was foresee what would happen if Jesus placed himself in the right time and place.
Again - the Bible does not simply say that Jesus placed Himself in the right time and place. What He did was to play His part in what God's predetermined plan and decree was of course.

But Jesus did was not to crucify Himself nor does it say in Acts that "Jesus placed Himself in the right time and place just as God decreed to happen". It says that the acts of evil men were determined to happen - namely crucifying Jesus.

The scriptures never say that "all God had to do" concerning any subject. It simply says what He did.
... And that is the Crux of the difference between Calvinism and arminianism. Determinism vs foreknowledge.
Perhaps we should have another thread about the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. :scratch:

But for now God's predestining of all things which take place in His creation is a simple and inescapable conclusion based on what the scriptures tell us about His omniscience.

God knew from ages past exactly what would take place in any certain instance. Since the scriptures present God as always involved in some way minutely in every event that takes place and since God is not constrained by anything other than His own will - God brought to past every event that has taken place in creation just as He decreed would take place.

I.e. - nothing happens in a vacuum. God fills Heaven and earth and holds everything together by the Word of His power. That includes the spikes used to crucify Christ and the brains that came up with the idea and carried it through by the free will of evil men.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
And God has been giving the same message as Jesus on behaviour since the Garden.
a good real-life example is:
When we were at High School, we had to go to class each day and were taught according to the curriculum. We worked under close supervision from the teacher, and from the set texts. We had little freedom, and were closely managed through in-term assessments, end of term examinations, and the final end-of-year examination. In fact, we were totally dependent on the teacher for the quality of the teaching and a successful graduation.

But many students who did excellently at High School, failed miserably at University. This was because they were no longer closely managed. They had the lectures, and the tutorials, but most of the time they were left to their own devices to organise their study programmes. They were given two or three assignments throughout each semester, with some basic guidelines, but it was up to them how to exactly complete them. They failed, because they did not have the self-management skills or discipline to organise their own study toward a successful outcome.

But those who did have good discipline and self-management skills, possibly through good parenting and excellent teachers, not only achieved good outcomes at High School, but at University (College) as well, and went on to have great careers.

So, the Christian life is more like being at University than High School. There are guidelines, and support through student advisors at University for those who choose to use them. I made good use of my student advisor when I did my M.Div (at the age of 66), but mostly, I was left to my own devices about how I did the essays and assignments.

So, the Holy Spirit is more like a University tutor than a high school teacher. He gives the guidance, mainly through the Bible, and it is up to us how we follow it. But He sets the exam at the end and Jesus "grades" and rewards us us according to how well we followed the guidelines.

(Please don't assume that I believe in a works-based salvation, because I definitely don't!)
 
Upvote 0