Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

BABerean2 said:

This rotten, sin-cursed world will burn, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13.)

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said:

I guess that's what it all comes down to. How we view God's work of healing and restoration. When we read "I am making all things new" some of us see how He transformed men like King David and Saul and believe that's his pattern of making things new (not that it stops there - or has reached completion).

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.
(Is it King David, or is it King David's offspring who will be the "shepherd". See Matthew 1:1, and John 10:16, and Galatians 3:16.)

25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.
(What is the land that lasts "forever", which is promised to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16? This rotten, sin-cursed world will burn, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13.)

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
(What is the "everlasting" covenant found in Hebrews 13:20, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24?, Who is the temple of the New Covenant? See Revelation 21:22.)


27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”
(Who is the "tabernacle" of the New Covenant which is the temple that lasts "forevermore"?)


Rev 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

.[/QUOTE Hi the passage I quoted is clear this is the land that the fathers dwelt in and cannot be manipulated to be the new Jerusalem. They are multiplied during this time and that means they are having children. This and many other passages testify that the kingdom age of 1000 years is literal and coming soon.

Click to expand...

Brian Mcnamee said: ↑
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said: ↑
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.
(Is it King David, or is it King David's offspring who will be the "shepherd". See Matthew 1:1, and John 10:16, and Galatians 3:16.)
25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.
(What is the land that lasts "forever", which is promised to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16? This rotten, sin-cursed world will burn, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13.)

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
(What is the "everlasting" covenant found in Hebrews 13:20, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24?, Who is the temple of the New Covenant? See Revelation 21:22.)
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”
(Who is the "tabernacle" of the New Covenant which is the temple that lasts "forevermore"?)

Rev 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Click to expand...

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi the passage I quoted is clear this is the land that the fathers dwelt in and cannot be manipulated to be the new Jerusalem. They are multiplied during this time and that means they are having children. This and many other passages testify that the kingdom age of 1000 years is literal and coming soon.

Click to expand...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Future 1000yr bodily reign of Christ from Jerusalem in the kingdom age?
That view is about as good as any other..........

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

The true form of "Replacement Theology" replaces the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

It replaces the "son" who is the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine based on race falls apart.


The New Covenant: Bob George

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

..................................................................

Paul had to correct Peter for treating the Gentile believers differently than the Jewish believers, but some of us are making the same error today.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The Orthodox Jewish man in the video above had to find the promise of the New Covenant on his own.


The modern Church has done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with Orthodox Jews.
The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel 9 prove the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.
Why have we never seen this simple three-part message on Christian television?
The Two Peoples of God doctrine is part of the problem.
If we really love people we are to tell them the truth.
Nobody today has a relationship with God, based on who their parents would be.
See 1 John 2:23.

.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

In Galatians 4:24-31 the Apostle Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

Sadly, some of us cannot let go of the Old Covenant, in order to embrace the New Covenant, and instead have to find something wrong with others who have.

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

.

Click to expand...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Excellent com7
Galatians 4 and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake............

Galatians 4:
21Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, don't you listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the free woman. 23However, the son by the handmaid was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born through promise.
24These things contain an allegory, for these are two Covenants.
One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar. 25For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for She is in bondage with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, "Rejoice, you barren who don't bear. Break forth and shout, you that don't travail. For more are the children of the desolate than of her who has a husband."
28Now we, brothers, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But as then, he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
30However what does the Scripture say? "Throw out the handmaid and her son, for the son of the handmaid will not inherit with the son of the free woman."
31So then, brothers, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the free woman.
====================================
Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>. That in Her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'
16 and saying,
Woe! woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed<4016> with
fine linen,<1039> and purple,<4210> [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:12]
and scarlet,<2847> and have been gilded<5558> in gold <5553> and precious<2093> stone and pearls<3135>
That to one hour was desolated<2049> the so much riches.

Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people!
How like a widow is She, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

The fire comes at the return of Christ in the passage below.

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


The same thing is found in 2 Peter 3:10-13.


What is the spiritual condition of earthly Jerusalem in the verse below?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Joseph Canfield : Neither City Nor Land Are Holy!

.

Click to expand...

Brian Mcnamee said:

your attempt at making Rev 11 fit into 70AD are ignoring almost the entire rest of the chapter. Two witnesses a great earthquake and the angels announce the kingdoms of this earth have now become the kingdoms of God and His Christ and He shall rule forever. This kingdom that comes does indeed come with fire and Jerusalem is the epicenter but in the old testament we see the kingdom coming in 3 places and instead of Jerusalem being destroyed it is saved and yet is appears fire does target the enemies of God. The fact that the destruction of the beast and defeat of the dragon is described twice with a 1000 year gap in between the 1st defeat where the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and Satan is bound for 1000 years and when loosed he is allowed one last rebellion. In the 1st instance no life would be save unless the LORD intervenes. In Zech 14 Jerusalem is being over when the LORD comes and is king over all the earth. After the 1000 years the battle is described as the city is only surrounded when fire comes down and destroys them. In both cases Jerusalem is not destroyed.
The destruction of 70AD was for sure a judgement and indeed many died by fire. But in the very promise of the new covenant God says Israel will not cease to be a nation in His eyes. He says he will not cast the seed of Israel off for all they have done. He ends that chapter speaking of a day that Jerusalem will be rebuilt and never thrown down again at at time when there are dead bodies everywhere. You are cherry picking your verses to force them to fit into your covenant theology.

Click to expand...

nolidad said:

that is part of the New covenant! Israel has had their sins forgiven-that is part of the New covenant!

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said:

Israel has always meant "People of God".

....and Israel DID repent and have their sins forgiven - right here, in Scripture:

Acts 2:22-41

22“People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarened by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know. 23But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. 24But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip. 25King David said this about him:



‘I see that the LORD is always with me.

I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.

26No wonder my heart is glad,

and my tongue shouts his praises!

My body rests in hope.

27For you will not leave my soul among the deade

or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.

28You have shown me the way of life,

and you will fill me with the joy of your presence.’f



29“Dear brothers, think about this! You can be sure that the patriarch David wasn’t referring to himself, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us. 30But he was a prophet, and he knew God had promised with an oath that one of David’s own descendants would sit on his throne. 31David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah’s resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.

32“God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this. 33Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today. 34For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said,



‘The LORD said to my Lord,

“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand

35until I humble your enemies,

making them a footstool under your feet.”’g



36“So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

37Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”

38Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far awayh—all who have been called by the Lord our God.” 40Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”

41Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.​

Click to expand...

nolidad said:

So if Israel always means the people of God then you believe thisabout the church which is now the people of God.

Romans 11:

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So the people of God has not obtained but someone else has??

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The people of God have been cast away for some one else??

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So part of the church is in blindness.

OK then!

YOu seem to forget that Israel is based on being a descendant of Abraham Isaac and Jacob!

YOu are no more an Israeli than th emoon is made of cottage cheese!

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said:

First.......about that letter to those in Rome:

Quoting from sparknotes:
During the winter of 57–58 a.d., Paul was in the Greek city of Corinth. From Corinth, he wrote the longest single letter in the New Testament, which he addressed to “God's beloved in Rome” (1:7). Like most New Testament letters, this letter is known by the name of the recipients, the Romans.
Subjects: Paul the Apostle

The Letter of Paul to the Romans (Romans) - SparkNotes

https://www.sparknotes.com › lit › newtestament › section6
​

The following Scriptures provide the background to Paul’s teaching here: Deuteronomy 32:18, 43; Isaiah 26:21, 27:10-13, 59:1-21; Jeremiah 31; and Daniel 9:24-27.

–Both judgment and salvation are in view in Isaiah 26-27 and in Isaiah 59, including judgment for the shedding of innocent blood (themes in Matthew 21, 23; Revelation 6, 16-19; etc.).
–Hosea predicts both the divorce of Israel and God’s promise of remarriage for Israel. This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 11. The remnant of Israel was to be joined with new covenant believers from other nations, and all of them made one in Jesus.
–“Paul is dealing with the climax of Israel’s covenant history” in Romans 11 (which was in 66-70 A.D - future to Paul at the time of writing his letter to the Romans - but past to us).​

Click to expand...

nolidad said:

Hey you are the one who said Israel always mean the people of God- I just pointed out the impossibility of that statement!

Click to expand...