LDS Mormon Doctrine Says You Can be Both Saved and Lost

Dale · Oct 27, 2019

Bruce R. McConkie (1915-1985) was one of the leading lights of the Mormon Church, the Latter Day Saints. He held the rank of Apostle in the LDS church for some years. He wrote a lengthy book called Mormon Doctrine, in 1966. This is a useful resource, since Mormon beliefs can be highly confusing.

It is clear that McConkie doesn't think much of the traditional Christian doctrine of heaven and hell.

Under the heading of Mansions: "To believe that in eternity all men will go either to a heaven of eternal bliss or a hell of eternal torment is a doctrine that offends the sense of justice of every reasonable man."

Instead, the Mormon church teaches that there are four eternal destinations. Heaven is divided into three kingdoms. From highest to lowest, these are the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Telestial Kingdom. The other destination is Perdition.

What does salvation look like? Under the heading Salvation, McConkie tells us:

"This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. ... All others are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. (2 Ne. 9:18-27.) But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek. Those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore, be [lost]; their eternal progression will be cut short; they will not fill the full measure of their creation, but in eternity will be ministering servants to more worthy persons."

Note: I have substituted "lost" for a word that starts with a D.

In other words, you can be saved from perdition but barred from the Celestial Kingdom and possible progress to Exaltation. How different are these levels of heaven?

Under the heading Ministering of Angels we find:

"The practice of the ministering of angels is not limited to mortality. In eternity those in the terrestrial kingdom will be ministered to by those of the celestial, and those in the telestial by angels sent to them from the terrestrial world. (D. & C. 76:86-88.)"

Even in eternity, residents of the Terrestrial Kingdom will see the blessed people in the Celestial Kingdom as angels, angels with a status not granted to them. Residents of the Telestial Kingdom, in turn, will perceive those in the Terrestrial Kingdom as angels. We are led to believe that the differences in these levels of heaven are anything but trivial.

In the Gospels, Jesus Christ made a much clearer distinction between heaven and hell.

anna ~ grace · Oct 27, 2019

This is way more confusing.

Peter1000 · Oct 27, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
This is way more confusing.

It is not that difficult. McConkie is a scholar of the highest levels, and sometimes at those levels they tend to make things sound more difficult than they are.

Here it is in simpler terms:

There are 3 degrees or levels of heaven. We make it into heaven by simply believing in Jesus. However, it is by our works that we are judged as to which level we will find ourselves dwelling.

If you look around, these 3 levels of heaven also fit nicely with the 3 levels of human nature.

There are those that believe, but are eager to do those things that Jesus before ordained them to do. Eager and willing to serve Jesus and our fellow man and take upon them the burdens of their neighbor. To live the law of Christ as suggested by Galatians 6:2, and were like the sheep of Jesus as suggested by Matthew 25:33-40.
These I liken unto a Celestial person.

There are those that believe, but are not eager to do those things that Jesus before ordained them to do. They were good people, but were not particularly eager and willing to serve Jesus and their fellow men. They went to church on Sunday, but did not particularly live the gospel the other 6 days of the week. They would not be too willing to ease the burden of their neighbor or to take care of the poor. They might send some money, once in a blue moon, but they would rarely get their hands dirty to feed the hungry or cloth the naked, etc.

There are those that believe, but did not heed the word of God. They were willing to do those things that were contrary to the gospel. These too are those that refused to believe in Jesus, and in ignorance fought against the Lamb of God. Since all men and women will eventually confess that Jesus is the Christ, these would confess with a poison in their mouth, knowing that Jesus is the Christ, but not willing to do his will. So they shall not have anything to do with him eternity upon eternity.

Finally, there are those that believe and completely deny the Holy Spirit and with their eyes wide open, fight against the Lamb of God as lucifer and his angels did in heaven.
They are the sons of perdition and will live where satan lives for eternity upon eternity.
And that will not be in any of the degrees/levels of heaven.

So look at the total people in your congregation and you may see at least the 3 levels of heaven in them. Remember, all the congregation, even those that do not come but are on the roles, and come maybe at Christmas and Easter.

Write me back after you have made that study.

anna ~ grace · Oct 27, 2019

I don't see this in such nuance in the Early Church Fathers, though. And doesn't this theology kind of put us in a position where we feel that we can literally judge others?

Peter1000 · Oct 27, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
I don't see this in such nuance in the Early Church Fathers, though. And doesn't this theology kind of put us in a position where we feel that we can literally judge others?

Paul tried to explain about the world after the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, even naming the Celestial and Terrestrial bodies that we would have. The Celestial body is different from the Terrestrial body as the brightness of the sun is compared to the brightness of the moon. IOW our resurrected bodies will adhere, and be in sinc with the nature of the person we are.

We can recognize the nature of others, but judge them, no, we do not know them like God knows them. There is no judgement on our part.

If we know one that seems to have fallen from the highest level to the next level, we may want to help them realize this and repent and move to the higher level again.

IOW missionary work is not only for those that do not believe, but for those who believe but are not acting the part, and need a helping hand of fellowship to again be in the higher level, and the happiness, and joy of living at the higher level.

Dale · Oct 27, 2019

Peter1000 said:
It is not that difficult. McConkie is a scholar of the highest levels, and sometimes at those levels they tend to make things sound more difficult than they are.

Here it is in simpler terms:

There are 3 degrees or levels of heaven. We make it into heaven by simply believing in Jesus. However, it is by our works that we are judged as to which level we will find ourselves dwelling.

If you look around, these 3 levels of heaven also fit nicely with the 3 levels of human nature.

There are those that believe, but are eager to do those things that Jesus before ordained them to do. Eager and willing to serve Jesus and our fellow man and take upon them the burdens of their neighbor. To live the law of Christ as suggested by Galatians 6:2, and were like the sheep of Jesus as suggested by Matthew 25:33-40.
These I liken unto a Celestial person.

There are those that believe, but are not eager to do those things that Jesus before ordained them to do. They were good people, but were not particularly eager and willing to serve Jesus and their fellow men. They went to church on Sunday, but did not particularly live the gospel the other 6 days of the week. They would not be too willing to ease the burden of their neighbor or to take care of the poor. They might send some money, once in a blue moon, but they would rarely get their hands dirty to feed the hungry or cloth the naked, etc.

There are those that believe, but did not heed the word of God. They were willing to do those things that were contrary to the gospel. These too are those that refused to believe in Jesus, and in ignorance fought against the Lamb of God. Since all men and women will eventually confess that Jesus is the Christ, these would confess with a poison in their mouth, knowing that Jesus is the Christ, but not willing to do his will. So they shall not have anything to do with him eternity upon eternity.

Finally, there are those that believe and completely deny the Holy Spirit and with their eyes wide open, fight against the Lamb of God as lucifer and his angels did in heaven.
They are the sons of perdition and will live where satan lives for eternity upon eternity.
And that will not be in any of the degrees/levels of heaven.

So look at the total people in your congregation and you may see at least the 3 levels of heaven in them. Remember, all the congregation, even those that do not come but are on the roles, and come maybe at Christmas and Easter.

Write me back after you have made that study.

So there are three heavens, three levels of heaven. It looks like only those who go to the Celestial Heaven are in the Book of Life.

<< The book of life is the book containing the names of those who shall inherit
eternal life; it is the book of eternal life. (Dan. 12:1-4; Heb. 12:23; D. & C. 76:68; 132:19.) It is "the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world." >>
McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, under Book of Life, p. 69-70

Elsewhere, McConkie distinguishes between those who have immortality and those who have eternal life. That backs up the point that only those destined for the Celestial Heaven are recorded in the Book of Life.

He is the way · Oct 27, 2019

Dale said:
So there are three heavens, three levels of heaven. It looks like only those who go to the Celestial Heaven are in the Book of Life.

<< The book of life is the book containing the names of those who shall inherit
eternal life; it is the book of eternal life. (Dan. 12:1-4; Heb. 12:23; D. & C. 76:68; 132:19.) It is "the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world." >>
McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, under Book of Life, p. 69-70

Elsewhere, McConkie distinguishes between those who have immortality and those who have eternal life. That backs up the point that only those destined for the Celestial Heaven are recorded in the Book of Life.

In the Bible Paul does mention the third heaven:
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:2)

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.

As far as eternal life is concerned Jesus gave the answer to this question:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Rescued One · Oct 27, 2019

Dale said:
Bruce R. McConkie (1915-1985) was one of the leading lights of the Mormon Church, the Latter Day Saints. He held the rank of Apostle in the LDS church for some years. He wrote a lengthy book called Mormon Doctrine, in 1966. This is a useful resource, since Mormon beliefs can be highly confusing.

It is clear that McConkie doesn't think much of the traditional Christian doctrine of heaven and hell.

Under the heading of Mansions: "To believe that in eternity all men will go either to a heaven of eternal bliss or a hell of eternal torment is a doctrine that offends the sense of justice of every reasonable man."

Instead, the Mormon church teaches that there are four eternal destinations. Heaven is divided into three kingdoms. From highest to lowest, these are the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Telestial Kingdom. The other destination is Perdition.

What does salvation look like? Under the heading Salvation, McConkie tells us:

"This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. ... All others are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. (2 Ne. 9:18-27.) But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek. Those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore, be [lost]; their eternal progression will be cut short; they will not fill the full measure of their creation, but in eternity will be ministering servants to more worthy persons."

Note: I have substituted "lost" for a word that starts with a D.

In other words, you can be saved from perdition but barred from the Celestial Kingdom and possible progress to Exaltation. How different are these levels of heaven?

Under the heading Ministering of Angels we find:

"The practice of the ministering of angels is not limited to mortality. In eternity those in the terrestrial kingdom will be ministered to by those of the celestial, and those in the telestial by angels sent to them from the terrestrial world. (D. & C. 76:86-88.)"

Even in eternity, residents of the Terrestrial Kingdom will see the blessed people in the Celestial Kingdom as angels, angels with a status not granted to them. Residents of the Telestial Kingdom, in turn, will perceive those in the Terrestrial Kingdom as angels. We are led to believe that the differences in these levels of heaven are anything but trivial.

In the Gospels, Jesus Christ made a much clearer distinction between heaven and hell.

Dale said:
"It is clear that McConkie doesn't think much of the traditional Christian doctrine of heaven and hell."

He based that teaching on the Doctrine and Covenants which was written by Joseph Smith. Mormons will insist that the Doctrine and Covenants came from Jesus. Mormon hell deserves a thread of its own.

The Celestial Kingdom

There are three levels in their celestial kingdom. The highest level is the Church of the Firstborn.

"Baptism is the gate to the Church [on earth] itself, but celestial marriage is the gate to membership in the Church of the Firstborn, the inner circle of faithful saints(Mormons) who are heris of exaltation [godhood] and the fulness of the Father's kingdom. (D. & C. 76:54, 67, 71, 94, 102; 77:11; 78:21; 88:1-5; Heb. 12:23.)

"The Church of the Firstborn is made up of the sons of God, those who have been adopted into the family of the Lord, those who are destined to be joint-heirs with Christ in receving all that the Father hth. 'If you keep my commandments[Mormon commandments] you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; ... And all those who are begotten through me[Jesus] are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.' (D. & C. 93:20-22; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 9, 41-43.)"
Mormon Doctrine, pages 139-140.

President Joseph F. Smith said: "We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 64).

What evidence do we have that God does not jealously guard his position and power, but rather seeks to see that his children rise up to his position of glory, knowledge, and power that he has obtained (see Moses 1:39)?
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 155

Mormons withhold a lot of information from non-Mormons is order to hure them in. They call that information the meat of the gospel and claim that we aren't ready to accept it.

"Of those who enter the Lord's order of matrimony and who keep their covenants ..., the Lord says: 'They shall pass by the angels, and the gods, ...to their exaltation and glory in all things, ...which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.' That is to say, eternal life consists of two things: (1) the continuation of the family unit in eternity, which means a continuation of the seeds or the everlasting begetting of children; and (2) the receipt of the fulness of the glory of the Father, which is all power in heaven and on earth."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, p.708

Rescued One · Oct 27, 2019

Dale said:
So there are three heavens, three levels of heaven. It looks like only those who go to the Celestial Heaven are in the Book of Life.

<< The book of life is the book containing the names of those who shall inherit
eternal life; it is the book of eternal life. (Dan. 12:1-4; Heb. 12:23; D. & C. 76:68; 132:19.) It is "the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world." >>
McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, under Book of Life, p. 69-70

Elsewhere, McConkie distinguishes between those who have immortality and those who have eternal life. That backs up the point that only those destined for the Celestial Heaven are recorded in the Book of Life.

Eternal life is reserved for those in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingom.

Dale · Oct 27, 2019

He is the way said:
In the Bible Paul does mention the third heaven:
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:2)

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

As far as eternal life is concerned Jesus gave the answer to this question:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Thanks for your comment on Paul's being caught up to the Third Heaven. The question is, what did he mean by the Third Heaven? Let's take a look at what Protestant commentators traditionally thought of this passage.

From John Gill's commentary on II Corinthians 12:2:

<<"such an one was caught up to the third heaven,
the seat of the divine Majesty, and the residence of the holy angels; where the souls of departed saints go immediately upon their dissolution; and the bodies and souls of those who have been translated, caught up, and raised already, are; and where the glorified body of Christ is and will be, until his second coming. This is called the "third" heaven, in respect to the airy and starry heavens. The apostle refers to a distinction among the Jews of (yatt aymvw yaeuym aymvw) (yalye aymv) , "the supreme heaven, the middle heaven, and the lower heaven" ; and who also make a like division of worlds, and which they call (lpvh Mlwehw yeumah Mlwew Nwyle Mlwe) , "the supreme world, and the middle world, and the lower world" ; and sometimes the world of angels, the world of the orbs, and the world of them below ... >>

In other words, the three heavens, in Paul's time, among the Jews, were the heaven of air and wind, then the heaven of stars and heavenly bodies, which we can observe, and above those, the heaven of angels, God's Kingdom. Paul did not divide the Heaven of departed souls into three parts. He did not set up, or refer to, a hierarchy of heavens where some souls only make it to the first or second heaven, but not to God's dwelling in the third.

Link
2 Corinthians 12:2 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

He is the way · Oct 28, 2019

Dale said:
Thanks for your comment on Paul's being caught up to the Third Heaven. The question is, what did he mean by the Third Heaven? Let's take a look at what Protestant commentators traditionally thought of this passage.

From John Gill's commentary on II Corinthians 12:2:

<<"such an one was caught up to the third heaven,
the seat of the divine Majesty, and the residence of the holy angels; where the souls of departed saints go immediately upon their dissolution; and the bodies and souls of those who have been translated, caught up, and raised already, are; and where the glorified body of Christ is and will be, until his second coming. This is called the "third" heaven, in respect to the airy and starry heavens. The apostle refers to a distinction among the Jews of (yatt aymvw yaeuym aymvw) (yalye aymv) , "the supreme heaven, the middle heaven, and the lower heaven" ; and who also make a like division of worlds, and which they call (lpvh Mlwehw yeumah Mlwew Nwyle Mlwe) , "the supreme world, and the middle world, and the lower world" ; and sometimes the world of angels, the world of the orbs, and the world of them below ... >>

In other words, the three heavens, in Paul's time, among the Jews, were the heaven of air and wind, then the heaven of stars and heavenly bodies, which we can observe, and above those, the heaven of angels, God's Kingdom. Paul did not divide the Heaven of departed souls into three parts. He did not set up, or refer to, a hierarchy of heavens where some souls only make it to the first or second heaven, but not to God's dwelling in the third.

Link
2 Corinthians 12:2 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

John Gill's definition of the third heaven is very different than that of Howard Pittman. Like Paul's account, Howard Pittman was actually there and seen where the third heaven was at. I have Howard Pittman's book Placebo.

drstevej · Oct 30, 2019

So is Howard Pittman a new Mormon Heavenly Mother: mentioned when convenient but ignored otherwise?

He is the way · Oct 30, 2019

drstevej said:
So is Howard Pittman a new Mormon Heavenly Mother: mentioned when convenient but ignored otherwise?

As far as I know Howard Pittman has not joined The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. He certainly was not a member when he wrote the book back in 1999. He had been a Baptist minister for 35 years when he had his near death experience on August 3, 1979. His message has been delivered on the Christian Broadcasting Network, the Christian Communications Network, the Trinity Broadcasting Network, numerous radio stations, church services, and public appearances. According to his book his main body trunk artery ruptured and at some point in the ensuing hours, he suffered physical death. His spirit was lifted from his body by his guardian angels and taken to the second heaven where he saw many startling things. He appeared before our Lord in the Third Heaven where he pleaded for an extension of his physical life.

drstevej · Oct 30, 2019

His spirit was lifted from his body by his guardian angels and taken to the second heaven where he saw many startling things. He appeared before our Lord in the Third Heaven where he pleaded for an extension of his physical life.

What proof is there that this actually occurred versus a dream-like experience? Did He see Heavenly Mom?

He is the way · Oct 30, 2019

drstevej said:
What proof is there that this actually occurred versus a dream-like experience? Did He see Heavenly Mom?

It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not believe. There are still people who believe the earth is flat.

Peter1000 · Oct 30, 2019

drstevej said:
So is Howard Pittman a new Mormon Heavenly Mother: mentioned when convenient but ignored otherwise?

Is there some kind of a forum rule about "goading"?

Peter1000 · Oct 30, 2019

drstevej said:
What proof is there that this actually occurred versus a dream-like experience? Did He see Heavenly Mom?

Again, is there some kind of a rule on this forum against "goading"?

drstevej · Oct 30, 2019

I am asking questions pertinent to the discussion. The problem is that your arguments have holes in them.

Peter1000 · Oct 30, 2019

drstevej said:
I am asking questions pertinent to the discussion. The problem is that your arguments have holes in them.

You are "goading" and you know it.

Ironhold · Oct 30, 2019

Peter1000 said:
You are "goading" and you know it.

There is a "report" button in the lower left-hand corner of each post.

LDS Mormon Doctrine Says You Can be Both Saved and Lost

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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