Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

BNR32FAN · Oct 29, 2019

Danthemailman said:
In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

*So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no bearing of fruit. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Jesus did not save them nor sustain them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off.

All this is is an attempt to twist what the scriptures actually say into what you want them to say in order to coincide with your beliefs. You can’t even accept the very words of the scriptures for what they actually say. Who cares what some guy thought they say? If we’re to go by that then we can believe whatever we want. Just find somebody on the Internet to quote and bam dowhateveryouwantism. And what is a “cosmic connection” anyway? What does the universe have to do with a connection to Christ? I mean really this is a ridiculous theory.

Danthemailman · Oct 29, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I didn’t imply that you did say they are optional I’m simply asking if they are optional or not. Either the works that God has prepared for us to walk in are optional or mandatory, so which is it?

Mandatory as in "must or else" or will? All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Walking in the works that God has prepared for believers is not forced or legalistic.

No not at all. I wouldn’t presume to know your level of devotion to God and I wouldn’t have the audacity to question it either. Just because a person doesn’t believe that works are necessary for salvation doesn’t mean they don’t do them.

Exactly!

So your saying that a saving faith produces works? Is this bearing of fruit automatic even against the person’s control or desire?

Yes, saving faith results in producing good works. Bearing fruit is not forced or legalistic and faith works through love. (Galatians 5:6)

Did Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles have a saving faith when they accompanied Jesus on the way to the olive grove in Gethsemane? Why does Jesus tell them to bear fruit if they are incapable of failing to do so? Did they not have a choice in whether or not they would bear fruit after they believed?

The 11 faithful apostles had saving faith, unlike Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) An exhortation to bear fruit (and a warning for those who do not) does not imply that the 11 remaining disciples will not bear fruit.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Will all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth? It is God’s “will” that they do so? Surely your not a universalist?

Not all men will accept the knowledge of the truth and be saved and I'm definitely not a universalist.

Nowhere does it say they were trusting in their works to save them. They were rejected by Christ because they indulged in sin. Jesus specifically stated that.

“And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

In the eyes of God, we would ALL be seen as those who "PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS." (Romans 3:23) All our righteousness is as filthy rags apart from God's imputed righteousness. Why do you only mainly focus on the part where Jesus says, "you who practice lawlessness" and skim over the part where He says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" which means they were NEVER saved. When shocked to find out they were condemned, they acted surprised and pointed to their "WORKS" which demonstrates they were trusting in their works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

Did you continue reading onto verses 24-27? Notice the very first word “Therefore”. This indicates that Jesus is compounding on what He had just previously said about those He rejected who say to Him Lord Lord.

“"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I already explained this to you and you must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture. It leads to works salvation confusion.

Evidently these people did not ACT on His words when it came to refraining from sin. There’s no mention here at all of them not having faith. These people very well could’ve believed that it’s ok to sin and Jesus will just forgive all our sins if we simply believe. That’s the implications I see here.

Faith is not demonstrated by foolish people who build their house on sand. You are seeing your implications through your lens of your own preconceived beliefs.

Here you are injecting a bunch of garbage into the message. There is only one determining factor here in Jesus’ message. The wise man heard Jesus’ words and acted on them and the fool heard His words and did not act on them.

What garbage? Hearing the words of Jesus and acting on them is descriptive of believers.

There is absolutely nothing said about self righteousness.

Read from verse 15 on down. Who is mentioned in the context? No self righteousness, huh?

Jesus gave the specific reason why He rejected them and it was because they indulged in sin.

Which is descriptive of unbelievers, not believers. (1 John 3:9)

They heard His words and did not act on them by refraining from sin. Plain and simple. There’s also absolutely no indication that these people twisted Jesus’ words. Are you a sola scripture believer, because I’m not seeing half of what your claiming the scriptures actually say here. Honestly it looks like your the one twisting His words here. I’m simply taking it for what it actually says. Not what I want it to say.

I'm not twisting anything. You are determined to create two classes of believers here. Those who produce good works and will be saved and those who produce no works and indulge in sin and will not be saved. Begin reading again starting in verse 15 and notice who is being addressed and also pay close attention to what the many people in verse 22 were clinging to in hopes of being saved. Also pay close attention to the words, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" in verse 23.

Danthemailman · Oct 29, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
All this is is an attempt to twist what the scriptures actually say into what you want them to say in order to coincide with your beliefs. You can’t even accept the very words of the scriptures for what they actually say. Who cares what some guy thought they say? If we’re to go by that then we can believe whatever we want. Just find somebody on the Internet to quote and bam dowhateveryouwantism. And what is a “cosmic connection” anyway? What does the universe have to do with a connection to Christ? I mean really this is a ridiculous theory.

Greek scholar AT Robertson explained it very well. :oldthumbsup:

I did not twist the scriptures. Instead I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine and it just so happens that it lines up with AT Robertson's interpretation. I see that your indoctrination runs deep. I can't expect you to understand.

Danthemailman · Oct 29, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
So your saying that when Jesus says that branches that are in Him are cut off by The Father they were not really in Christ? Yeah I get that one a lot. Jesus says they’re are in Him and you say they’re not really in Him.

And BTW Jesus does address the matter of those who bear fruit and then later stop bearing.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit is cut off from the vine.

He who abides in Me he beareth much fruit.

Anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be My disciples.

If you keep my commandments you will abide in My love just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Seriously we can just stop bearing fruit and abide in Christ? Is that how it works?

I already explained this in post #298. I can see that you just don't get it.

pasifika · Oct 29, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Not quite my friend. Notice what Jesus says

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:10-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If we keep His commandment to love each other we will abide in His love. The key word being “If”. Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit but it is not forced upon us. The Holy Spirit is our guide not our pilot. He does not take control over us, we are to submit to His guidance. As Paul said to the saints who are faithful to Christ in Ephesians 4

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is a prime example that the Holy Spirit does not take over control of us but we must LET Him work in us.

Hello, yes the word "If" in....

John 15:10...If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Fathers commands and remain in His love...

Refers to the time you keep that commands or you love one another, NOT the moment you hear or trying to keep the command...

The command is to "love" This is "Agape" it is the Love that is from God Not in ourselves, so this love needs to grow within us until it reaches its fullness, just like the fruit also needs to grow to maturity...

So, the command refers to the love in fullness..

Notice,
1John 3:20-22...If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our heart do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from Him anything we ask, because we keep His commands and do what pleases Him...

Process of our hearts to align with God's commands...

Bible Highlighter · Oct 29, 2019

Danthemailman said:
Mandatory as in "must or else" or will? All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Walking in the works that God has prepared for believers is not forced or legalistic.

2 John 1:6 says, “And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.”

"We should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4)

Romans 6:19 says, “Surrender your different body parts as being servants to righteousness unto holiness.”

"Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

We should walk in them [i.e. good works] (Ephesians 2:10).

"Walk worthy of the vocation by which you are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the binding power of peace (Ephesians 4:1-3).

Walk as children of light: Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord, and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:8) (Ephesians 5:10-11).

Walk cautiously, not as fools, but as the wise, redeeming the time [Making the most of your time] because the days are evil (Ephesians 5:15-16)

Walk worthy of God, who has called you unto his kingdom and glory (1 Thessalonians 2:12).

Paul says that what he writes to us are the commandments of the LORD (1 Corinthians 14:37).

So when he had told believers to "walk in regards to works" he wanted them to regard his words as the commandments from the LORD.

Is it legalistic to obey the laws of gravity?
Is it legalistic to not murder, commit adultery, steal, to love your neighbor, etc.?
Is it legalistic to obey those rules at your job that you know that if you don't obey them, you could get fired?
Is it legalistic for one to be faithful to their spouse?
Is it legalistic to obey the Law in stopping at a school crosswalk while a school lifeguard guides kids safely across for them to go to school?

You said:
Yes, saving faith results in producing good works. Bearing fruit is not forced or legalistic and faith works through love. (Galatians 5:6)

Uh, huh; And why do you think John the baptist told people to bring forth fruits befitting of repentance? For the Scriptures say:

Bring forth fruits (deeds) worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8) (Matthew 12:33) (Luke 3:8-9) (Acts 26:20 says, “...do works befitting of repentance.”).

Jesus commands:

Bear much fruit (John 15:8) (Jesus says in John 15:16, “You should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain”).

The 11 faithful apostles had saving faith, unlike Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) An exhortation to bear fruit (and a warning for those who do not) does not imply that the 11 remaining disciples will not bear fruit.

Jesus called Judas as one of his sheep:

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” (Matthew 10:16).

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” (John 10:27-28),

Judas was a familiar friend to Jesus whereby he lifted up his heel against him.

“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” (Psalms 41:9)

Jesus says that Psalms 41:9 is in reference to Judas betraying Him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ (John 13:8).

You cannot betray somebody unless you were once loyal to them at some point.

You said:
In the eyes of God, we would ALL be seen as those who "PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS." (Romans 3:23) All our righteousness is as filthy rags apart from God's imputed righteousness. Why do you only mainly focus on the part where Jesus says, "you who practice lawlessness" and skim over the part where He says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" which means they were NEVER saved. When shocked to find out they were condemned, they acted surprised and pointed to their "WORKS" which demonstrates they were trusting in their works for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

This should raise alarm bells for our readers. Before you were saying that believers are fruitful, and now you are saying that this is not the case. So then your whole point about doing good works is just a cover story and or not really true? For if your words are to be understood correctly here, it appears that you are double talking in the fact that you are now undermining in doing good works by saying that we all practice lawlessness. Yet, Jesus said in Matthew 7:23 to those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness. I believe you are confusing Romans 3 which refers to the Justification Process (in first being saved by God's grace) with thinking that it can extend to also talk about Sanctification (Which is not the case). Romans 3:11 says that there is nobody that understands and or nobody who seeks after God. Do you believe that no believer today has no understanding and that they do not seek after God? This is why I believe you are taking Romans 3:23 out of context. Paul was addressing the Jewish belief and their desire to convince Christians that they needed to first be circumcised in order to be saved. For in Romans 3:1, Paul asks,

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

In other words, they were denying God's grace via by the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" (which said that they had to be circumcised to be saved instead of having faith in Christ as the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation). Yet, you are implying that Romans 3 is a refutation of any kind of works done for salvation (even after we are saved by God's grace, i.e. even the Sanctification Process) when Paul was clearly not referring to the working of GOD within us to live holy after being saved by God's grace.

You said:
I already explained this to you and you must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture. It leads to works salvation confusion.

We can learn from descriptive verses like Matthew 7:21, and Matthew 7:23 in regards to the requirement for salvation is. A description of believers who did works in his name were told to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness (Matthew 7:23). Not everyone who says unto Him, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21). The will of the Father or the will of GOD is our sanctification (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Besides, Matthew 7 does have prescriptive verses within them:

Enter in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in there: Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (Matthew 7:13-14).

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:15-16) (Matthew 7:20).

I am not sure how these prescriptive verses or NT commands help support your belief in any way. I believe Belief Alone-ism is the popular belief of salvation in most Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches; So while churches got the Trinity correct, and they have their spiritual authority correct (i.e. the Bible alone), most of them do not promote a correct view of Soteriology (IMO). For in order for Jesus's words to be true here, there has to be a wide gate or popular belief of Soteriology. But even Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who were supposed to be God's people. I imagine that if Jesus returned today to visit our churches (not that He is going to do that, but if He did), He would be rebuking and condemning Christians within churches today (Just like he did with the Pharisees). For the Pharisees believed in Belief Alone-ism, too. They said, "Abraham is our father." (John 8:39; Also compare with Matthew 3:9). They thought they were saved by merely being sons of Abraham. Sound familiar? You believe you are saved by being sons of God or in just having a belief alone in Jesus. But Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees because they ignored Belief Alone-ism. The only place we see anything remotely like that is in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, but this was a denial of God's grace. The Pharisee was not seeking forgiveness with God like the tax collector had done.

Faith is not demonstrated by foolish people who build their house on sand. You are seeing your implications through your lens of your own preconceived beliefs.

No. You are not reading Matthew 7:26-27 correctly. Jesus did not say that the foolish man whose house was destroyed in a storm was the one who did not believe, Jesus says that the foolish man was the one who did not DO what He says. Big difference.

You said:
I'm not twisting anything. You are determined to create two classes of believers here. Those who produce good works and will be saved and those who produce no works and indulge in sin and will not be saved. Begin reading again starting in verse 15 and notice who is being addressed and also pay close attention to what the many people in verse 22 were clinging to in hopes of being saved. Also pay close attention to the words, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" in verse 23.

There are two ways to interpret Matthew 7:23 on this point. One way: We know that if a believer decides to turn from their righteousness and they work iniquity, all their previous righteousness will not be remembered (See Ezekiel 18:24). 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance in knowing the LORD if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that the man who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

In other words, GOD associates Himself with the righteous. So if they do evil or sin again, it will be as if He never knew them because their sin cancels out GOD remembering their previous righteousness. It will be as if He never knew them because there is no more righteousness to remember because of their current justification of sin or evil. The second way to interpret Matthew 7:23 is that Jesus did mean that He never knew them. Meaning, they always justified sin since their receiving of the gospel. So Jesus is talking to a certain set of believers (Which must be a problem for many throughout time) and Jesus is not referring to an exhaustive truth for all believers in the fact that He is denying that other believers can fall away from the faith. We have to read the whole counsel of God's Word.

Guojing · Oct 29, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
All this is is an attempt to twist what the scriptures actually say into what you want them to say in order to coincide with your beliefs. You can’t even accept the very words of the scriptures for what they actually say. Who cares what some guy thought they say? If we’re to go by that then we can believe whatever we want. Just find somebody on the Internet to quote and bam dowhateveryouwantism. And what is a “cosmic connection” anyway? What does the universe have to do with a connection to Christ? I mean really this is a ridiculous theory.

From a dispensationalist background, I must say it has been very educational reading both your perspectives.

You take the scripture literally

Dan is trying to reconcile Paul with James and what Jesus stated in the flesh in the 4 gospels.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 29, 2019

pasifika said:
Process of our hearts to align with God's commands...

Not all sin leads to spiritual death. So the breaking of certain commands by GOD does not lead to being cast into the Lake of Fire. 1 John 5:17 says there is a sin that does not lead unto death. While 1 John 5:17 is referring to confessed sins that are serious (with the intention of overcoming them), I believe the "sin not unto death" extends to human imperfections or fault of character and or in not loving perfectly; For these would be the kinds of things that will not condemn us (For we can see this with the apostle Paul refusing to obey the Spirit in going to Jerusalem without him being condemned by GOD). So in this sense, our hearts aligning with God's commands is a process or it is the Sanctification Process. Yes, there are instances where God's grace does allow for a person to put away grievous sin that leads to death (like hate, murder, lust, adultery, lying, idolatry, etc.), but this is not always the case for every believer. For the sin committed by Ananias and Sapphira was so serious that they were instantly killed and condemned to hell for it. For the Scriptures say that a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about their deaths for their particular sins. If they were saved, they would not be in fear because to live is Christ and to die is gain. If they were never saved to begin with they would not care because their path to destruction did not apply to them. I believe Jesus. I believe Him when He says that one can potentially be cast into hell fire bodily for looking upon another in lust (See: Matthew 5:28-30). I believe Jesus when He says that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). But there are many here who do not believe Jesus in what He says. To not believe the words of Jesus is to not believe or trust in Him.

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), but the "OSAS version of salvation," or the "Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone-ism version of salvation" (that both say that you can sin and still be saved on some level) does not sound like we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because you are snug and secure in salvation by having a belief alone in Jesus. No need to worry about if sin will destroy your soul or not as Jesus and His followers warned against many times (See: Matthew 5:21-22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 12:14, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 22:14-15, etc.).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 29, 2019

Psalms 66:18 says,
"If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;"

createdtoworship · Oct 30, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
You also said the Carnal Christian is saved. You also implied towards me that it is impossible to stop lusting after women, or to stop lying. So this means a Christian can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. It appears your beliefs are in line with that of Free Will Baptists then. If so, they do not believe in Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved because one can commit apostasy and yet they do not believe sin can separate a believer from GOD because they have a belief alone on Jesus for salvation. Some Free Will Baptists also believe that repentance involves a genuine sorrow over sin and a renunciation of it. But like many in the Belief Alone camp, they do not think that overcoming grievous sin (like hate, lust, lying, etc.) is a salvation issue. So it appears to be for holiness on the surface (at first glance), but below the depth of the surface of the waters reveals a teaching of darkness because it really is not in support of holy living as an essential component for salvation.

I do believe people can lose salvation, but I also believe in eternal security (just not once saved always saved). But lets keep this thread on the gospel message, and not apostacy doctrines, but to answer more of your questions on apostacy, refer to below....

Here is a thread I started a while back, that explains it (if you wish to talk about it, post to that thread)

Can you lose your salvation

by the way I am not baptist, I am from calvary chapel ministries which is a non denomination.

Calvary Chapel | Church Finder

Danthemailman · Oct 30, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus called Judas as one of his sheep:

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” (Matthew 10:16).

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” (John 10:27-28),

Judas was a familiar friend to Jesus whereby he lifted up his heel against him.

“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” (Psalms 41:9)

Jesus says that Psalms 41:9 is in reference to Judas betraying Him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ (John 13:8).

You cannot betray somebody unless you were once loyal to them at some point.

You sound really mixed up and there is no need for straw man arguments. It appears to me that you just like to argue and hear yourself talk. I really see no point in addressing all of your statements (as you have proven to be thoroughly indoctrinated and biased), but I will address this about Judas. You equate the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to Judas as being one of Jesus' sheep who hear His voice, is known by Jesus and follows Jesus and is given eternal life? Really? Jesus referred to Judas as "unclean" (John 13:10-11) and Jesus also said that Judas "is a devil!" (John 6:70) You call that one of Jesus' sheep in John 10:27-28? If you can believe that then you can believe anything! Your obsession with losing salvation has really done a number on you.

In regards to Psalm 41:9, David wrote this psalm about Ahithophel who was one of David's official counselors (2 Samuel 15:12). As David's friend, Ahithophel defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy. It is evident that there is messianic connotation given to this verse because Jesus quoted it in speaking of Judas Iscariot in John 13:18. Although David said mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Jesus deleted this reference when He used it of Judas. Do you really believe that Jesus (God in the flesh) truly trusted an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him?

John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' Do you think by Jesus choosing Judas, this must mean Judas was saved or that Judas was included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus, He kept?" Not so. Jesus gave the reason in John 13:18 why Judas was chosen and it wasn't to be kept.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil - John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean - John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition - John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus - John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor - Luke 6:16
Judas was a betrayer - Multiple verses.
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor - John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin - John 19:11
Judas was entered by Satan - Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself - Matthew 27:5
Judas' habitation to be desolate - Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

Bible Highlighter · Oct 30, 2019

Danthemailman said:
You sound really mixed up and there is no need for straw man arguments. It appears to me that you just like to argue and hear yourself talk. I really see no point in addressing all of your statements (as you have proven to be thoroughly indoctrinated and biased), but I will address this about Judas. You equate the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to Judas as being one of Jesus' sheep who hear His voice, is known by Jesus and follows Jesus and is given eternal life? Really? Jesus referred to Judas as "unclean" (John 13:10-11) and Jesus also said that Judas "is a devil!" (John 6:70) You call that one of Jesus' sheep in John 10:27-28? If you can believe that then you can believe anything! Your obsession with losing salvation has really done a number on you.

In regards to Psalm 41:9, David wrote this psalm about Ahithophel who was one of David's official counselors (2 Samuel 15:12). As David's friend, Ahithophel defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy. It is evident that there is messianic connotation given to this verse because Jesus quoted it in speaking of Judas Iscariot in John 13:18. Although David said mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Jesus deleted this reference when He used it of Judas. Do you really believe that Jesus (God in the flesh) truly trusted an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him?

John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' Do you think by Jesus choosing Judas, this must mean Judas was saved or that Judas was included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus, He kept?" Not so. Jesus gave the reason in John 13:18 why Judas was chosen and it wasn't to be kept.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil - John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean - John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition - John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus - John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor - Luke 6:16
Judas was a betrayer - Multiple verses.
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor - John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin - John 19:11
Judas was entered by Satan - Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself - Matthew 27:5
Judas' habitation to be desolate - Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

GOD is holy. How can He endorse that which is evil? But you are free to believe the Lord initially chooses devils to be his disciples. Yes, the Lord knew what He would later do (but that was on Judas and not GOD); For GOD did not initially choose a devil as one of His disciples. If He did, the LORD would be sending out an ambassador of darkness to try and save people. No offense, friend; But do you know how dumb that sounds? You can believe as you wish, but Jesus called Judas as one of his sheep. The Scriptures say that Judas betrayed Jesus. You cannot betray someone unless you were once loyal to them in some way.

Think.

Anyways, here is a thread that covers the topic really well.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Bible Highlighter · Oct 30, 2019

gradyll said:
I do believe people can lose salvation, but I also believe in eternal security (just not once saved always saved). But lets keep this thread on the gospel message, and not apostacy doctrines, but to answer more of your questions on apostacy, refer to below....

Here is a thread I started a while back, that explains it (if you wish to talk about it, post to that thread)

Can you lose your salvation

by the way I am not baptist, I am from calvary chapel ministries which is a non denomination.

Calvary Chapel | Church Finder

I don't know, friend. I just do not see where you are coming from when I read the Scriptures. Nothing is said about how the carnal Christian is saved, and there are many warnings on how certain sins can destroy a person's soul (Matthew 5:21-22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 12:14, Revelation 22:14-15). We have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7).

You say that repentance is turning away from sin or idols and turning to GOD and it is required as a part of salvation. This appears to be a general walk in the direction towards that which is good and away from that which is bad. You say this is for salvation, but if this is the case, then how can the Carnal Christian be saved? They are not turning away from sin and towards GOD if they are living in sin. This is why I see your belief as contradictory.

I believe the Bible teaches that "repentance" is seeking forgiveness with the Lord, and that the "fruits of repentance" are good works and or in living holy.

I made my case for a Biblical version of repentance in post #173 within this thread.

createdtoworship · Oct 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I don't know, friend. I just do not see where you are coming from when I read the Scriptures. Nothing is said about how the carnal Christian is saved, and there are many warnings on how certain sins can destroy a person's soul (Matthew 5:21-22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 12:14, Revelation 22:14-15). We have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7).

You say that repentance is turning away from sin or idols and turning to GOD and it is required as a part of salvation. This appears to be a general walk in the direction towards that which is good and away from that which is bad. You say this is for salvation, but if this is the case, then how can the Carnal Christian be saved? They are not turning away from sin and towards GOD if they are living in sin. This is why I see your belief as contradictory.

I believe the Bible teaches that "repentance" is seeking forgiveness with the Lord, and that the "fruits of repentance" are good works and or in living holy.

I made my case for a Biblical version of repentance in post #173 within this thread.

I have said this a few times already, but I will repeat it. A carnal christian, one who is defeated by sin. May or may not live in the same sins. Say they may commit adultery, but repent, and forsake that sin for a matter of years, then they give in again. Or say they repented of smoking marijuana in high school, but at a family reunion ten years later, the light up and smoke again, only to feel the conviction of the spirit, and they repent. See that is a carnal christian. They are giving in to a variety of different sins but each time they repent and try again. That was the way I was for 20 years before rededicating my life to the Lord. I was saved, but I was making out with my girlfriend, and commiting fornication. I was not having sex, but I was doing everything but that. I was in the mentality of "how far can I go and not get in trouble.' That is how much of christianity is right now, because that is what churches teach and youth groups. But I finally realized that my sin was cursing my life. I was losing jobs. I was unhealthy. Then as I repented and forsook those sins in the last five years God started blessing my life. I was saved the whole time, I never forsook salvation. Now here is where the confusion lies. The carnal christian can sin various sins, and live in defeat but because they still repent, they have life. The problem is when they sin the same sins, over and over and start stopping repentance. Once they start giving into the sin more permanently, and they stop repenting of it. That is a danger zone. So instead of simply having sex once and repenting, they move in with their boyfriend. Now they have adultery all the time. That is where they are in danger of drifting. They may still be saved. But if they start to become proud of their sin, and start to resent Christianity in any form for placing limitations on them (which happens after awhile of living in sin). That resentment for authority starts to bring forth death. That death is in the form of spiritual deception. They start to not believe the Bible any more, and not believe in Christ. Then eventually they start to loath everything christian. Many people at this point will say they were never saved. But it's not that simple. The Bible says they became apostate. So I hope this shows the difference between a carnal christian who still has repentance and an apostate who not only lacks repentance, but that sin has created further death as far as spiritual deception and losing faith in Christianity. So sin did not cause them to lose faith directly speaking, but sin allowed for death in their life and that death led to resentment, which further created death, and that led to deception or a leaving of the faith.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2019

gradyll said:
I have said this a few times already, but I will repeat it. A carnal christian, one who is defeated by sin. May or may not live in the same sins. Say they may commit adultery, but repent, and forsake that sin for a matter of years, then they give in again. Or say they repented of smoking marijuana in high school, but at a family reunion ten years later, the light up and smoke again, only to feel the conviction of the spirit, and they repent. See that is a carnal christian. They are giving in to a variety of different sins but each time they repent and try again. That was the way I was for 20 years before rededicating my life to the Lord. I was saved, but I was making out with my girlfriend, and commiting fornication. I was not having sex, but I was doing everything but that. I was in the mentality of "how far can I go and not get in trouble.' That is how much of christianity is right now, because that is what churches teach and youth groups. But I finally realized that my sin was cursing my life. I was losing jobs. I was unhealthy. Then as I repented and forsook those sins in the last five years God started blessing my life. I was saved the whole time, I never forsook salvation. Now here is where the confusion lies. The carnal christian can sin various sins, and live in defeat but because they still repent, they have life. The problem is when they sin the same sins, over and over and start stopping repentance. Once they start giving into the sin more permanently, and they stop repenting of it. That is a danger zone. So instead of simply having sex once and repenting, they move in with their boyfriend. Now they have adultery all the time. That is where they are in danger of drifting. They may still be saved. But if they start to become proud of their sin, and start to resent Christianity in any form for placing limitations on them (which happens after awhile of living in sin). That resentment for authority starts to bring forth death. That death is in the form of spiritual deception. They start to not believe the Bible any more, and not believe in Christ. Then eventually they start to loath everything christian. Many people at this point will say they were never saved. But it's not that simple. The Bible says they became apostate. So I hope this shows the difference between a carnal christian who still has repentance and an apostate who not only lacks repentance, but that sin has created further death as far as spiritual deception and losing faith in Christianity. So sin did not cause them to lose faith directly speaking, but sin allowed for death in their life and that death led to resentment, which further created death, and that led to deception or a leaving of the faith.

We learn in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) that when the son came back home after living in sin, and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said two times that he was "dead" and he is "alive again." (See: Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). This is speaking in spiritual terms because the father also said that he was "lost" and now he is "found." It's commonly understood in Christianity that if one is lost, they are lost spiritually. But the words "alive again" implies that he was once alive spiritually before going prodigal, and then he died spiritually while living his prodigal life of sin, and then he became "alive again" after coming home and seeking forgiveness. So this shows that one can die spiritually for a time due to sin. James 5:19-20 teaches a similar thing. We are told that if any of us brethren strays away from the truth, and another believer converts them back again (to serving Jesus again), we should know that we saved a soul from death and we helped cover a multitude of their sins. How so? Because we pointed them back to Jesus and in seeking forgiveness with Him. The prodigal son can be forgiven and saved again. The prodigal son is not saved while he is living a riotous life in sin. The father said he was "dead" and "lost."

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2019

gradyll said:
I have said this a few times already, but I will repeat it. A carnal christian, one who is defeated by sin. May or may not live in the same sins. Say they may commit adultery, but repent, and forsake that sin for a matter of years, then they give in again. Or say they repented of smoking marijuana in high school, but at a family reunion ten years later, the light up and smoke again, only to feel the conviction of the spirit, and they repent. See that is a carnal christian. They are giving in to a variety of different sins but each time they repent and try again. That was the way I was for 20 years before rededicating my life to the Lord. I was saved, but I was making out with my girlfriend, and commiting fornication. I was not having sex, but I was doing everything but that. I was in the mentality of "how far can I go and not get in trouble.' That is how much of christianity is right now, because that is what churches teach and youth groups. But I finally realized that my sin was cursing my life. I was losing jobs. I was unhealthy. Then as I repented and forsook those sins in the last five years God started blessing my life. I was saved the whole time, I never forsook salvation. Now here is where the confusion lies. The carnal christian can sin various sins, and live in defeat but because they still repent, they have life. The problem is when they sin the same sins, over and over and start stopping repentance. Once they start giving into the sin more permanently, and they stop repenting of it. That is a danger zone. So instead of simply having sex once and repenting, they move in with their boyfriend. Now they have adultery all the time. That is where they are in danger of drifting. They may still be saved. But if they start to become proud of their sin, and start to resent Christianity in any form for placing limitations on them (which happens after awhile of living in sin). That resentment for authority starts to bring forth death. That death is in the form of spiritual deception. They start to not believe the Bible any more, and not believe in Christ. Then eventually they start to loath everything christian. Many people at this point will say they were never saved. But it's not that simple. The Bible says they became apostate. So I hope this shows the difference between a carnal christian who still has repentance and an apostate who not only lacks repentance, but that sin has created further death as far as spiritual deception and losing faith in Christianity. So sin did not cause them to lose faith directly speaking, but sin allowed for death in their life and that death led to resentment, which further created death, and that led to deception or a leaving of the faith.

Also, Jesus agreed with the lawyer to love GOD and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life in Luke 10:25-28. This truth is still told after the cross by Paul. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16:22 that if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema (accursed). Jesus says for us in the way to love Him is to keep His commandments (John 14:15). So again, if we are not loving Jesus, by keeping His commandments, we are accursed. A person cannot be accursed and still saved. Loving God and loving your neighbor obviously involves some form of work on our end. For the Bible talks about the brethren's "work of love" in Hebrews 6:10. Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

The way Jesus describes loving your neighbor is helping the poor beat up person on the side of the road (Luke 10:29-37). In fact, those who do not help the poor (the goats) are told to go away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46). John says that if any man hates his brother, he is like a murderer, and no eternal life abides in him (1 John 3:15). Obviously helping the poor is a good work. Yet, the Bible describes it is essential to our salvation.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

You say that works (doing righteousness) is not a part of salvation. But 1 John 3:10 refutes your belief here. It says that we can know the difference between the child of God and the child of the devil in the fact that whoever does not righteousness is not of God, and neither he that loves his brother. So you have to do righteousness in order to be of God. To be of God means one is saved. So doing righteousness (works) = salvation.

createdtoworship · Oct 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
We learn in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) that when the son came back home after living in sin, and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said two times that he was "dead" and he is "alive again." (See: Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). This is speaking in spiritual terms because the father also said that he was "lost" and now he is "found." It's commonly understood in Christianity that if one is lost, they are lost spiritually. But the words "alive again" implies that he was once alive spiritually before going prodigal, and then he died spiritually while living his prodigal life of sin, and then he became "alive again" after coming home and seeking forgiveness. So this shows that one can die spiritually for a time due to sin. James 5:19-20 teaches a similar thing. We are told that if any of us brethren strays away from the truth, and another believer converts them back again (to serving Jesus again), we should know that we saved a soul from death and we helped cover a multitude of their sins. How so? Because we pointed them back to Jesus and in seeking forgiveness with Him. The prodigal son can be forgiven and saved again. The prodigal son is not saved while he is living a riotous life in sin. The father said he was "dead" and "lost."

Bible Highlighter said:
Also, Jesus agreed with the lawyer to love GOD and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life in Luke 10:25-28. This truth is still told after the cross by Paul. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16:22 that if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema (accursed). Jesus says for us in the way to love Him is to keep His commandments (John 14:15). So again, if we are not loving Jesus, by keeping His commandments, we are accursed. A person cannot be accursed and still saved. Loving God and loving your neighbor obviously involves some form of work on our end. For the Bible talks about the brethren's "work of love" in Hebrews 6:10. Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

The way Jesus describes loving your neighbor is helping the poor beat up person on the side of the road (Luke 10:29-37). In fact, those who do not help the poor (the goats) are told to go away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46). John says that if any man hates his brother, he is like a murderer, and no eternal life abides in him (1 John 3:15). Obviously helping the poor is a good work. Yet, the Bible describes it is essential to our salvation.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

You say that works (doing righteousness) is not a part of salvation. But 1 John 3:10 refutes your belief here. It says that we can know the difference between the child of God and the child of the devil in the fact that whoever does not righteousness is not of God, and neither he that loves his brother. So you have to do righteousness in order to be of God. To be of God means one is saved. So doing righteousness (works) = salvation.

so again I ask, do you love your neighbor? IF not then it's not working for you. I am saying this only because I care. By your own admission you are apostate. However if we are not saved by works, and we are simply saved by trusting in Christ, and if salvation is truly a free gift, and only then, can you be saved. So you can believe all this all you want, but I don't see any fruit you are saved. Just from what you are saying (mainly because you believe you are saved by works and not faith).

Danthemailman · Oct 31, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
GOD is holy. How can He endorse that which is evil? But you are free to believe the Lord initially chooses devils to be his disciples. Yes, the Lord knew what He would later do (but that was on Judas and not GOD); For GOD did not initially choose a devil as one of His disciples. If He did, the LORD would be sending out an ambassador of darkness to try and save people. No offense, friend; But do you know how dumb that sounds? You can believe as you wish, but Jesus called Judas as one of his sheep. The Scriptures say that Judas betrayed Jesus. You cannot betray someone unless you were once loyal to them in some way.

Think.

Anyways, here is a thread that covers the topic really well.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Who said that Jesus is endorsing which is evil? Again, Jesus explained why He chose Judas and it wasn't because he was saved, but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' (John 13:18) You have no scripture to back up your argument that Judas was initially saved then lost his salvation. Instead you have biased, faulty human logic. In regards to Judas betraying Jesus, he did betray Him "in some way." He initially set out to follow Jesus in his way, claimed allegiance to him and even looked like the real deal to the other 11 disciples, yet Jesus clearly stated that Judas was unclean (John 13:10-11) and is a devil! (John 6:70) but you are free to disregard the words of Jesus and believe otherwise. You have your agenda.

My arguments are clearly backed up by scripture in post #311. You simply refuse to accept the truth. John 6:64 - But there are some of you who "do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Judas did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12) and the arguments in that thread failed to prove otherwise. Post #311 still stands.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2019

gradyll said:
so again I ask, do you love your neighbor?

Only God is qualified to properly answer this. Besides, whether I was loving my neighbor or not. would not change what the Bible says. My life is not the standard of living and neither is looking to the whole of humanity. The Bible is the standard of living; And with GOD, all things are possible. But by your question, it makes it sound like nobody can love their neighbor. But Jesus says that loving your neighbor is a part of entering into life (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love GOD, and love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). John says that whoever hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 2:9-11 essentially says that walking in the light is loving your brother. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

You said:
By your own admission you are apostate.

Thank you for the false accusation. I will rejoice in GOD my Savior.

You said:
However if we are not saved by works,

Okay. Stop right here. I have told you many times already that I do not believe in Works ALONE Salvationism. That is your false accusation. I believe we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ + Sanctification (Holy living).

You said:
and we are simply saved by trusting in Christ,

Not true.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

You said:
and if salvation is truly a free gift,

God's grace (salvation) is a gift, but like all good gifts in this world, we have to take care of those gifts and or be responsible with them (otherwise we can lose and or damage them, etc.).

You said:
and only then, can you be saved. So you can believe all this all you want, but I don't see any fruit you are saved. Just from what you are saying (mainly because you believe you are saved by works and not faith).

Sorry. You don't know my heart and life to make such judgments. You are also not understanding that I believe that faith in Christ is where it starts, but a true faith shows forth that it is genuine in the fact that it has works of faith. You keep falsely claiming I believe in Works Alone Salvationism, when this is not the case.

In any event, may the Lord's love and peace be upon you today (even if we may disagree).

createdtoworship · Nov 1, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Only God is qualified to properly answer this. Besides, whether I was loving my neighbor or not. would not change what the Bible says. My life is not the standard of living and neither is looking to the whole of humanity. The Bible is the standard of living; And with GOD, all things are possible. But by your question, it makes it sound like nobody can love their neighbor. But Jesus says that loving your neighbor is a part of entering into life (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love GOD, and love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). John says that whoever hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 2:9-11 essentially says that walking in the light is loving your brother. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Thank you for the false accusation. I will rejoice in GOD my Savior.

Okay. Stop right here. I have told you many times already that I do not believe in Works ALONE Salvationism. That is your false accusation. I believe we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ + Sanctification (Holy living).

Not true.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

God's grace (salvation) is a gift, but like all good gifts in this world, we have to take care of those gifts and or be responsible with them (otherwise we can lose and or damage them, etc.).

Sorry. You don't know my heart and life to make such judgments. You are also not understanding that I believe that faith in Christ is where it starts, but a true faith shows forth that it is genuine in the fact that it has works of faith. You keep falsely claiming I believe in Works Alone Salvationism, when this is not the case.

In any event, may the Lord's love and peace be upon you today (even if we may disagree).

Sir if you have not followed any of God's commands fully or perfectly, how can you be saved? You have said repeatedly that you must follow God's commands to be saved. So I am just trying to understand your view. I really don't understand how you can believe in both grace and works. And I don't think the Bible understands that perspective either. Can you point to a verse that specifically says we are saved by both grace and works? I doubt you can especially when romans 11:6A specifically says "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works" and goes on to say "it is no longer of grace." if it is of works. So it is setting the two concepts at odds with each other, which you don't seem to grasp. So again if you can provide a verse that says we are saved by both grace and works, then provide it. Because romans 11:6 specifically says we are not saved by both.

View attachment 265959

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

salvation by grace alone (sola gracia)

salvation by faith alone (sola fide)

salvation by grace through faith

Saved by turning from our sins and trusting in Christ's salvation

saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

saved by works of the law, plus faith

He’s a Way of life

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Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

In the grip of grace

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