'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled

Status
Not open for further replies.

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,202
19,056
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,503,935.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It is not the Church's job to make people feel comfortable in their sin

No, it isn't.

But it is our job to proclaim the good news of the reign of God. Which we can't do effectively if we've so badly trashed our relationships with others that they are no longer willing to listen.
 
Upvote 0

Zachm531

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
341
129
New York
✟44,746.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The matter of blessing of civil marriages has been referred to the Appellate Tribunal, and there is a clear process to be followed there. There is no need, while that process is taking place, to ask others to "please leave" the church.

Clergy have all sworn an oath to be bound by Anglican polity and canon law. I would say not breaking that oath while remaining in office would be a line in the sand most of us would like to see observed. That basic integrity ought to be part of how we pilgrimage together as Anglicans.

I would also draw your attention to this part of the rules governing this forum: "Discussion and debate about the morality of homosexuality or same-sex marriage is not allowed." There are aspects of this matter which are off-topic in this forum.
So whatever these anglican men/women decide is canon is canon? They are already letting women be priests, might as well allow homosexual relationships. If blessing a homosexual marriage is actually being debated right now in the anglican church then the anglican church has already fallen ladies and gentlemen. Conforming to culture is not Biblical!
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,202
19,056
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,503,935.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
So whatever these anglican men/women decide is canon is canon?

There are significant established boundaries. Part of what is happening here is that we have never needed before to have any official policy on this, because - since same-sex marriage was not legal at all - we didn't need to say we wouldn't do it. That was a given.

Now same-sex marriage is legal in Australia and we need to work out how we will deal with the fact that some people in our churches will take up the option to marry; some people coming to faith will be in same-sex marriages; and many of our members will be trying to work out how their faith affects their relationships with friends and family members in or aspiring to same-sex marriages.

It's not surprising that these are complex questions and that opinions are divided. It will take time to sort it all out. In the meantime (as I said in one of Melbourne's synod debates) we all need to allow one another space, time and grace to find our place in the changed landscape.

They are already letting women be priests,

Oh the horror! :rolleyes:

might as well allow homosexual relationships.

These are completely separate issues.
 
Upvote 0

Quartermaine

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2019
2,794
1,615
49
Alma
✟80,772.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Well I personally don't wish to kill anyone as I already stated in post #101

Capital punishment is implemented by the civil authorities if needed.

Did you find out if the Leviticus law for stoning is deactivated?
you don't seem to think it is "deactivated" as you said: "sodomites should be excluded and in culture Gods will is for them to get the Leviticus law." and that Leviticus law is they are to be killed.

Now in this post you seem to be saying you want someone else to do the actual killing part...is this accurate?
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree. We should love everyone.. This does not mean that we do what they want over what God wants. If they want to come to church... that is fine.... But, don't expect the church to change it's rules for you... and if they don't.... claim that you are hated...



I don't think that any congregation should treat anyone badly. However, they are not being "treated badly" just because the church doesn't do as they would like.

I don't go to a vegetarian restaurant and shout that I am being treated badly because they won't cook me a steak.



Yes, that would be sad. I would leave any church that did not allow someone to join due to those reasons.. Or even if they were Gay.. But... If that gay person tried to change the rules of the church.... that is not right either.

What is happening is that the government is refusing the "registered charitable organization" distinction from churches... if they refuse to do things like accept the ideals of the LGBT......That... is not freedom of religion....

Try doing things like that to a Muslim Mosque..... You will be called an Islamophobe.... and face the anger of the Muslim's...Huge protests... OH.. we cannot do that..

But, even though that would be wrong.. the Muslims would raise such a clamor the government would cower... Yet.. Christians.... yeah... they are losing rights all over the place...


If a church does not treat people according to local law (without discrimination)
then it can loose it's non-profit status. That's fair. Non-profits support the community and are allowed tax exempt status by the community.

1 Peter 2:13-17
2 Peter 2:10
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Jude 1:8
Colossians 1:15-17
Ecclesiastes 10:20
Acts 8:32
Acts 23:5
Matthew 10:38
 
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I support all types of families. If you see this on posters, then that's a shame that you have a problem. Sorry. People have all kinds of flags and bumper stickers. Have you considered another island to live on?



Shameful. These are not families though because God intended for children to have a mother and a father:

Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.


Even if the heathen justice system around us has legalized sodomite adoption and partnership doesn't make it a normal function in Gods eyes. So if God wants children to have a mother and a father and children need a mother and a father,what basis are you rejecting Gods authority on this? Your profile claims your a Christian?

Only the heathens and the sodomites don't care about Gods model for the family and apparently you are in alliance with them and I just don't understand this,unless you are a sodomite and then it makes sense because it's just self serving.
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,412
5,519
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟609,347.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Only the heathens and the sodomites don't care about Gods model for the family and apparently you are in alliance with them and I just don't understand this,unless you are a sodomite and then it makes sense because it's just self serving.

Yet the question remains as to how me respond to human beings made in the image and likeness of God who don't fit the perfect model as you understand it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
you don't seem to think it is "deactivated" as you said: "sodomites should be excluded and in culture Gods will is for them to get the Leviticus law." and that Leviticus law is they are to be killed.

Now in this post you seem to be saying you want someone else to do the actual killing part...is this accurate?


I haven't seen that it's been deactivated but I'm not sure.

The Bible says sodomites have been given over to a reprobate mind for their own vile affections,so it's by choice. So they're not victims they are criminals against God:


Romans 1
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient


That post was about inclusion in the church and I will say it is absolutely unacceptable to allow a sodomite within the walls of Gods temple.

Realistically the death penalty for homosexuals will never be codified in western nations,unless Muslims overrun some,but the point is Gods will for reprobates/sodomites is a bleak one. They don't belong in the Christian community,let them join the heathen societies.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Yet the question remains as to how me respond to human beings made in the image and likeness of God who don't fit the perfect model as you understand it.


It's not how I understand it, it's Biblical definitions.

If they don't fit they get excluded. Jesus kicked the dust off his feet and walked away when a town wouldn't accept his word.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

section9+1

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2017
1,662
1,157
57
US
✟81,403.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, it isn't.

But it is our job to proclaim the good news of the reign of God. Which we can't do effectively if we've so badly trashed our relationships with others that they are no longer willing to listen.
If anyone wants to minister within the gay community toward repentance and redemption more power to them. God's kingdom is available. But in order to repent one first has to acknowledge something is wrong. If no wrongness is seen then no repentance is necessary and without repentance there is no reign of God in anyone's life. Ministering to people who lack God is in showing them what's needed to find him. And without recognizing the wrong how can anyone find the grace to turn away from it? No repentance=no God. That's how it works.
 
Upvote 0

Quartermaine

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2019
2,794
1,615
49
Alma
✟80,772.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Shameful. These are not families though because God intended for children to have a mother and a father:

Even if the heathen justice system around us has legalized sodomite adoption and partnership doesn't make it a normal function in Gods eyes. So if God wants children to have a mother and a father and children need a mother and a father,what basis are you rejecting Gods authority on this? Your profile claims your a Christian?

Only the heathens and the sodomites don't care about Gods model for the family and apparently you are in alliance with them and I just don't understand this,unless you are a sodomite and then it makes sense because it's just self serving.

ct-met-illinois-state-trooper-visitation-20190116


Here is a picture of Christopher and Halley Lambert and their daughter Delaney. Sadly CHristopher, a police officer in Illinois was killed in the line of duty in January 2019.
The true tragedy is that Halley and her daughter are still pretending to be a family. Since "God intended for children to have a mother and a father" No real Christian can considered them to be a family at all.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quartermaine

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2019
2,794
1,615
49
Alma
✟80,772.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I haven't seen that it's been deactivated but I'm not sure.

The Bible says sodomites have been given over to a reprobate mind for their own vile affections,so it's by choice. So they're not victims they are criminals against God:


Romans 1
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient


That post was about inclusion in the church and I will say it is absolutely unacceptable to allow a sodomite within the walls of Gods temple.

Realistically the death penalty for homosexuals will never be codified in western nations,unless Muslims overrun some,but the point is Gods will for reprobates/sodomites is a bleak one. They don't belong in the Christian community,let them join the heathen societies.
you dodged the question
 
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
ct-met-illinois-state-trooper-visitation-20190116


Here is a picture of Christopher and Halley Lambert and their daughter Delaney. Sadly CHristopher, a police officer in Illinois was killed in the line of duty in January 2019.
The true tragedy is that Halley and her daughter are still pretending to be a family. Since "God intended for children to have a mother and a father" No real Christian can considered them to be a family at all.


The process started off Godly until the father was taken, a sodomite adoption is abnormal from the very beginning to Gods model of father and mother.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
you dodged the question


I am dodging nothing. I am not obliged to answer questions either.

I told you I do not think the Leviticus laws have been deactivated in scripture from what I've read.

Change my mind.
 
Upvote 0

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
actions speak louder than words. and yeah the shoe does fit
I have seen nothing but compassion and care towards homosexuals from Christian conservative types. Sure, some people exist who hate homosexuals, but they're the minority and I've never personal met a Christian conservative (fundamentalist?) of that kind.

On the other side, I've seen a lot of self-righteous judgementalism towards anybody who doesn't toe today's political line with regards to same-sex marriage or any other host of issues.

Interestingly, in my own experience, the only person who was ever accommodating and tolerant and actually accepting towards a gay person in my workplace some years ago was me, an (arguably) conservative. That was exactly what that person told me, much to their own (and my) surprise. Everyone else in the office spoke about how they support gay marriage and love gay people and boasted about their tolerance, but in reality they snubbed the gay guy they actually had contact with. They wanted to be seen to be 'tolerant' but wouldn't actually be it. That's how this thing goes. We have people 'standing for same-sex marriage', showing off their righteousness to the world, but they would never actually bother discipling and loving them through their sexual difficulties. They think, "Do whatever you want" is loving instead of, "Have you thought this is perhaps not working?" The amount of gay people I've met who are crying for someone to just help them deal with their sexual pain is astounding. Most homosexuals don't want to be accepted and affirmed, they want to be loved, a fact that the 'progressive' tide completely misses because it's too wrapped up in its politics to care for reality.

Actions certainly do speak louder than words, and I don't believe half of the people who 'support gay marriage' but show zero love or tolerance or compassion towards anyone of a different mind or opinion to them whatsoever. If you were really tolerant and loving you would show it to all sorts of people, not just to those who it is popular to be 'tolerant' towards. They're not as righteous as they suppose. As soon as the cultural tide changes, they'll change too. So forgive me for my scepticism towards you using a picture of a family and their tragedy for your own political point in the post that followed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zachm531

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
341
129
New York
✟44,746.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
There are significant established boundaries. Part of what is happening here is that we have never needed before to have any official policy on this, because - since same-sex marriage was not legal at all - we didn't need to say we wouldn't do it. That was a given.

Now same-sex marriage is legal in Australia and we need to work out how we will deal with the fact that some people in our churches will take up the option to marry; some people coming to faith will be in same-sex marriages; and many of our members will be trying to work out how their faith affects their relationships with friends and family members in or aspiring to same-sex marriages.

It's not surprising that these are complex questions and that opinions are divided. It will take time to sort it all out. In the meantime (as I said in one of Melbourne's synod debates) we all need to allow one another space, time and grace to find our place in the changed landscape.



Oh the horror! :rolleyes:



These are completely separate issues.
No, men and women do not get to decide if Jesus is right or wrong. It is stated very clearly in the Bible that marriage is between a man and a woman, a church or its leaders CAN NOT disagree with scripture. How can you be a Christian and disagree with Jesus? And its funny that you say “oh the horror” its not scary, its just Biblical, read 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1:6-9. These places clearly state that Church leaders are to be men. Titus 2:3-5 explains the role of women in the church and at home. And yes they may be separate issues but they both stem
from conforming to society rather than sticking to sound Biblical doctrine.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.