Fantasy & Magic in Fiction

timothyu · Oct 27, 2019

Isilwen said:
It remains a story or a game.

In wonder if some just take everything literally.

LoricaLady · Oct 27, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
I appreciate the link, I've gone through the link's contents and I was aware of(most)of the pagan inclusion in Lewis' Naria series. Personally, I'm not a fan of combining pagan mythology with Christian allegory--but you know? We also celebrate Christmas(which is a pagan tradition), and I myself used to like to read about greek mythology(not because I believed in it, but because I realized they were myths and found them entertaining as stories). I can't pass much judgment since it wasn't true to pagan or Christian beliefs. Lewis merely took concepts and creatures that otherwise would have never existed and molded them into what he wanted for his own fantasy setting(especially since the 'gods' used in his book, to my knowledge, were not actually gods in the story at all).

Anywho, thank you for the interesting conversation. I have no comment about the inclusion of overt pagan symbols in fiction(IE the names of real mythological gods/goddesses, spinoffs of pagan rituals, etc)--but all of the research I did on 'magic' itself was as biblical as possible.

I had a moment to glance over the string, out of curiosity. I still have no desire to debate anything, but here is something that is beyond that. You say "We celebrate Christmas, which is pagan...." Well, you got the last part right, but there is that word "we" again.

I don't celebrate Christmas anymore, or Easter. Yes, they are pagan and the Lord tells us to not do what the pagans do and say we are doing it for Him. We see Messiah celebrating The Feast of Deducation, i.e. Hannukah. There is not much to celebrating it. But I give gifts on that day instead of on Christmas. It is actually Biblical.

Just sayin'... There are quite a few people who do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, not to mention Halloween. And Pentecost also is not in the Bible. The date for that, as with Easter, is set by the RCC. (The Protestant reformation only went so far.) The Apostles were celebrating Shavuot when the Holy Spirit came down, business as usual, as that high holy day is called an everlasting ordinance..

We can go the world's way, or we can go the Word's way. It really isn't that hard to go the Word's way.

Jamdoc · Oct 27, 2019

The difference is kind of like the difference between fiction and a lie, it's the intent. If you tell a story that everyone knows is not true from the onset of the story, it's just fiction, it's not a lie, because the intent was never to deceive.
Is the intent of a fantasy story meant to deceive or steer you away from the truth? If so, then it's sin. If not? I sure hope not, because I love both CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien, both of which were Christian authors and included some parallels to God in their stories.
The more grounded in reality a story is the more its likely to have messages designed to steer you away from the truth. If it takes place as a near future sci fi story and they reference this planet and its people and then make statements against Christianity in specific then yes, those are sinful writings and the authors were trying to steer you away from God. But if it's a completely different world and never once makes you question your own God's reality, then while only God Himself can declare it sin or not.. to my humble, ignorant, flawed opinion... it doesn't seem like sin. Just a silly story.

theoneandonlypencil · Oct 27, 2019

LoricaLady said:
I had a moment to glance over the string, out of curiosity. I still have no desire to debate anything, but here is something that is beyond that. You say "We celebrate Christmas, which is pagan...." Well, you got the last part right, but there is that word "we" again.

I don't celebrate Christmas anymore, or Easter. Yes, they are pagan and the Lord tells us to not do what the pagans do and say we are doing it for Him. We see Messiah celebrating The Feast of Deducation, i.e. Hannukah. There is not much to celebrating it. But I give gifts on that day instead of on Christmas. It is actually Biblical.

Just sayin'... There are quite a few people who do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, not to mention Halloween. And Pentecost also is not in the Bible. The Apostles were celebrating Shavuot when the Holy Spirit came down, business as usual, as that high holy day is called an everlasting ordinance..

We can go the world's way, or we can go the Word's way. It really isn't that hard to go the Word's way.

Well no, I didn't mean celebrating the PAGAN Christmas. We simply stripped it of its original meaning...I guess 'stole' the concept for something more useful?? Something to that effect lol. I adore Halloween, but I know almost nothing about the original holiday. To me, Halloween is just the day to put on a costume and watch cheezy monster movies.

theoneandonlypencil · Oct 27, 2019

Jamdoc said:
The difference is kind of like the difference between fiction and a lie, it's the intent. If you tell a story that everyone knows is not true from the onset of the story, it's just fiction, it's not a lie, because the intent was never to deceive.
Is the intent of a fantasy story meant to deceive or steer you away from the truth? If so, then it's sin. If not? I sure hope not, because I love both CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien, both of which were Christian authors and included some parallels to God in their stories.
The more grounded in reality a story is the more its likely to have messages designed to steer you away from the truth. If it takes place as a near future sci fi story and they reference this planet and its people and then make statements against Christianity in specific then yes, those are sinful writings and the authors were trying to steer you away from God. But if it's a completely different world and never once makes you question your own God's reality, then while only God Himself can declare it sin or not.. to my humble, ignorant, flawed opinion... it doesn't seem like sin. Just a silly story.

I'm in total agreement on this one

Jamdoc · Oct 27, 2019

zoidar said:
It was my passion in life, my "god".

That was the problem then, you made it an idol rather than seeing it for what it was, fiction, just a story. It's kind of like a parent putting those socket covers over electrical outlets to protect their child. Once a child is no longer prone to stick something in a socket like a fork, those protections aren't needed anymore.

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

Interesting discussion. I didn't read it all. I would just like to say that I get a lot of good stuff from watching the Hobbit and Lord of the rings movies. It's all the classic battle between good and evil, after all. It's about self sacrifice and standing for what is right and there's characters who are obviously meant to have biblical counterparts. It's not even that subtle. Tolkien is so obviously writing from a Christian view of spiritual warfare, but that's what I get as a Christian watching. If the magic bothers someone, they should not watch, but I see more good than harm. When I have time, perhaps, I'll add some of my favorite quotes from lotr that strike a deep chord with me.

Cis.jd · Oct 28, 2019

Nope. We had a thread about this before, and the people who thought fantasy fiction was bad also thought the magicians in America's Got Talent where conjuring demons. Many of them just couldnt comprehened how people could be so sure that there where no demons behind the cafd tricks. Sad thing is that they claimed God opened their eyes towards the truth as credibility towards their views.

Since they can't even determine things that children know isn't real then obviously the Holy Spirit hasn't made them see/understand anything as they claim. They harm God's word more than following it.

Movies/books such as HP are just imaginative storytelling about good vs evil. There are other life morals that are the main theme in movies such as that but in the end it's only made to take you out of reality artistically speaking.

Jamdoc · Oct 28, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Nope. We had a thread about this before, and the people who thought fantasy fiction was bad also thought the magicians in America's Got Talent where conjuring demons. Many of them just couldnt comprehened how people could be so sure that there where no demons behind the cafd tricks. Sad thing is that they claimed God opened their eyes towards the truth as credibility towards their views.

Since they can't even determine things that children know isn't real then obviously the Holy Spirit hasn't made them see/understand anything as they claim. They harm God's word more than following it.

Movies/books such as HP are just imaginative storytelling about good vs evil. There are other life morals that are the main theme in movies such as that but in the end it's only made to take you out of reality artistically speaking.

That's just bizzare, I thought literally everyone knew that magician magic tricks were just illusions or slight of hand, no "magic" involved, just a trick where the observer isn't fully paying attention to what the guy is doing that they don't notice, or rigged stage props or the like.

If anything the sin attached to "illusionists" or "magicians" like David Copperfield, is lying since the intent behind them is to deceive people into believing they did something they didn't really do (IE saw a lady in half, or make something disappear), but, at the same time, the audience is fully aware that they're not witnessing actual magic but a clever trick, they know it is fictional, they just don't know how the specific trick was achieved. It's a lie where everyone involved knows its a lie and even the liar knows nobody truly believes the lie, so when that all comes down to it, was it really a deception, was it really a lie? Or just telling a story like fiction?

zoidar · Oct 28, 2019

Isilwen said:
There you go. It was my god per your statement.

Not all who are into fantasy make it their god. I enjoy the story or the game. I don't make it a god to me. It remains a story or a game.

Jamdoc said:
That was the problem then, you made it an idol rather than seeing it for what it was, fiction, just a story. It's kind of like a parent putting those socket covers over electrical outlets to protect their child. Once a child is no longer prone to stick something in a socket like a fork, those protections aren't needed anymore.

There is no clear rule with fantasy, sci-fi etc, it's how it affects us personally. It may be a problem, just like all other worldly hobbies. If our hobby is the main passion in life there is something wrong, because Christ is to be our biggest passion. There may be ways to use fantasy to share Christ with people, and that's another matter.

LoricaLady · Oct 28, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
Well no, I didn't mean celebrating the PAGAN Christmas. We simply stripped it of its original meaning...I guess 'stole' the concept for something more useful?? Something to that effect lol. I adore Halloween, but I know almost nothing about the original holiday. To me, Halloween is just the day to put on a costume and watch cheezy monster movies.

No one can stop Christmas from being pagan no matter how they celebrate it. One can say, "Well, yeal, the Savior was not born then. It's not Biblical. The shepherd's didn't keep their flocks out in the winter, but kept them sheltered from the cold. They also were 'watching over their flocks' in the spring because lambs were being born then." Think Lamb of the Lord. "And yeal, December 25 was associated for centuries with the birthday of the sungod. Sometimes that even involved child sacrifice. But I'm going to celebrate December 25th as a Christian holiday, just as if Messiah really was born on that day." Now there is a real fantasy, friend, being acted out around the world every December.

"And yeal, Easter never falls on the true Resurrection day. The real holy day follows Passover, which is on a lunar calendar, not a solar calendar, so could never fall on Sunday each year. Further Easter is just another word for Ashtar, a pagan sex goddess whose symbols were the bunny and the egg. But let's act like the Lord actually did rise on that day anyway, and not celebrate Passover or the other high holy days which we are told are for all generations. Let's just indulge in another fantasy, that Messiah will be fine with us celebrating His resurrection on Ashtar's day...

"After all, He knows our hearts." (I used to say that.) Oh wait. The Bible says
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." Whose heart does the Almighty want us to follow? Our hearts, or His heart, and His instructions?

"“Do not worship the LORD your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods." Deut. 12:4

As for Halloween, let your kids indulge in gluttony with junk candy, have them scampering down the streets with people dressed like witches and warlocks, ladies of the evening, ax murderers and so on? What could be harmful to them and their spiritual (and physical) development about that? Sure Halloween is a very high 'holy' day for many satanists. Just a coincidence, right?"

So often it takes the Holy Spirit to cause us to see the obvious.

If you want to defend people celebrating those pagan rites, sorry, I just don't have the time, or heart, for it. I used to celebrate them all myself, so am not judging you. Just sharing some thoughts for you to possibly ponder.

Bye!

NothingIsImpossible · Oct 28, 2019

As someone who plays games, if I see witchcraft in terms of pentagrams, the devil...etc. I won't touch it. Or I will quit the game if I find it later on. I still may play game that has fictional magic. Not if it calls it spells or really seems to be more along the lines of witchcraft itself.

A good example of this is Thor has "magic" to humans. But he says its actually science. As in they are more advanced and its not actual magic. Just as if you brought a smartphone to someone from the 1900s, they would think you were a witch.

But it is a very thin line on if something is acceptable or not. I loved Lord of the Rings for example. But am 100% against Harry Potter. Some tell me "So you are a hypocrite! LOTR has a wizard and magic too!". And technically they are not wrong. However in my mind LOTR is fictional magic, Harry Potter is based on real witchcraft, just with a more fantastical view of it.

I find the subject to be hard to because you got super strict christians who are against any forms of magic because they think its all witchcraft. And then you got some who accept any form of magic, even if witchcraft based because "It's not real!" or "It won't harm anyone!".

Which I should add is another good point. I love LOTR but I don't go around with a staff pretending to make light appear from a staff. I don't pretend I can talk to animals for a ride. I don't act like I am Gandalf. Where on the other hand MANY know Harry Potter (and companies) spells by heart, what to say, how to move about the wand...etc.

If the subject you are talking about has you wanting to be part of it, then you should rethink the subject.

theoneandonlypencil · Oct 28, 2019

LoricaLady said:
No one can stop Christmas from being pagan no matter how they celebrate it. One can say, "Well, yeal, the Savior was not born then. It's not Biblical. The shepherd's didn't keep their flocks out in the winter, but kept them sheltered from the cold. They also were 'watching over their flocks' in the spring because lambs were being born then." Think Lamb of the Lord. "And yeal, December 25 was associated for centuries with the birthday of the sungod. Sometimes that even involved child sacrifice. But I'm going to celebrate December 25th as a Christian holiday, just as if Messiah really was born on that day." Now there is a real fantasy, friend, being acted out around the world every December.

"And yeal, Easter never falls on the true Resurrection day. The real holy day follows Passover, which is on a lunar calendar, not a solar calendar, so could never fall on Sunday each year. Further Easter is just another word for Ashtar, a pagan sex goddess whose symbols were the bunny and the egg. But let's act like the Lord actually did rise on that day anyway, and not celebrate Passover or the other high holy days which we are told are for all generations. Let's just indulge in another fantasy, that Messiah will be fine with us celebrating His resurrection on Ashtar's day...

"After all, He knows our hearts." (I used to say that.) Oh wait. The Bible says
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." Whose heart does the Almighty want us to follow? Our hearts, or His heart, and His instructions?

"“Do not worship the LORD your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods." Deut. 12:4

As for Halloween, let your kids indulge in gluttony with junk candy, have them scampering down the streets with people dressed like witches and warlocks, ladies of the evening, ax murderers and so on? What could be harmful to them and their spiritual (and physical) development about that? Sure Halloween is a very high 'holy' day for many satanists. Just a coincidence, right?"

So often it takes the Holy Spirit to cause us to see the obvious.

If you want to defend people celebrating those pagan rites, sorry, I just don't have the time, or heart, for it. I used to celebrate them all myself, so am not judging you. Just sharing some thoughts for you to possibly ponder.

Bye!

Woah there, I think you went off on quite some tangent. My point was this; if I don't care about pagans or their false 'gods', why on earth would it be wrong to change the focus of fake mythology, to using the time to celebrate togetherness and Jesus Christ with my loved ones? I mean, if you're not celebrating any pagan gods.....it isn't really pagan at that point LOL. But, if you insist, I suppose we should ban feasts on ANY day of the year; lest we timid Christians intrude on some strange religion's worship day. Same goes to easter; I always knew it was never the 'real' resurrection day, but my family still used it as a day to appreciate Jesus' resurrection and read the bible--aaaand paint some cute eggs too.

"Ezekiel 36:26 ESV
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

Think of being saved as receiving a heart transplant; yes, Jesus does know what's in your heart.

As for Deut.12:14 as far as I can tell it was part of the old covenant; as it was referring to destroying the temples/altars/idols the pagans had set up in the mountains and hills, then waiting for God to tell them where to hold their new worship. Along that same vein, Christians were also supposed to bring sacrifices and burnt offerings--so I suppose we should follow deut and do that too now, right? ;p

I'm shocked that you think most parents would let their children dress up as 'ax murderers' or, heaven forbid, 'ladies of the evening'. Where on earth do you live to experience such a weird halloween? I can tell you that where I'm from, most kids are too busy dressing up as their favorite cartoon/movie characters...or a tablecloth ghost(a personal favorite of mine. Also, gluttony is idolatry but with food; so no, children are not engaging in idolatry by eating candy on halloween. Most parents limit the amount their children can eat, anyways.

If you want to demonize everything that doesn't have strict Christian roots, go right ahead. I personally don't care enough about pagans or their silly excuses for 'rites' to let them ruin perfectly fun holidays that have moved on without them.

I'll leave you with this parting verse;

Romans 14: 2-3
"One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."

LoricaLady · Oct 28, 2019

It's between you and the Lord and His Word.

LoricaLady · Oct 28, 2019

And P.S. It was you who went off on a tangent about Christmas. I was just responding to what you initiated. It is related to your OP though, because all of its stories in literature and in movies, t.v. etc. are based on a fantasy about a day that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord's birth.

Again, it's between you and the Lord and His Word.

theoneandonlypencil · Oct 28, 2019

LoricaLady said:
And P.S. It was you who went off on a tangent about Christmas. I was just responding to what you initiated. It is related to your OP though, because all of its stories in literature and in movies, t.v. etc. are based on a fantasy about a day that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord's birth.

Again, it's between you and the Lord and His Word.

OK, I only briefly mentioned Christmas after you said you were going to leave the topic, and then you came back to ADD ONTO what I said about Christmas because it bothered you. Furthermore, there's nothing to be discussed between the Lord and I; I have no convictions. If you don't agree with my beliefs, that's fine--but you don't need to go trying to convince me that it's sinful when I've countered all of your arguments so far.

LoricaLady · Oct 28, 2019

Goodbye theoneandonlypencil. May all go well with you.

theoneandonlypencil · Oct 28, 2019

LoricaLady said:
Goodbye theoneandonlypencil. May all go well with you.

And with you.

LoricaLady · Oct 28, 2019

I'll leave you with this parting verse;

Romans 14: 2-3
"One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."

Just fyi. The Bible verse you quoted has nothing to do with the OP or fantasy literature. Notice the word eat, over and over. The passage is about whether or not it is good, or not good, to be a vegetarian. We are certainly not told, in general, that we can do anything we like. Vegetarianism is shown to be a personal choice, not wrong either way. Obviously you don't believe we can commit murder, steal, commit adultery and so on and that's our personal choice, fine with the Lord. Most of the Bible is about telling us what is right and wrong, and spelling out how we are to do right.

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of YHWH, but the doers of the Law will be justified;

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Isilwen · Oct 28, 2019

A more fitting verse would be this:

1 Corinthians 6:12
"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

In other words, just don't let fantasy master you. Which is why I said, it's just a story or a game.

Fantasy & Magic in Fiction

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