'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled

charsan said:

It seems some here only accept certain verses from the Bible but reject wholesale others. God inspired the Bible, the whole thing hence Christ is God and inspired the Bible even the verses some do

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Isn't that the way theologies are constructed; a person takes some verses and gives them great emphasis interpreting them in a particular way and then finds ways to interpret other passages to force them into conformity with the system that's been created?

Paidiske said:

Even in this thread, we have had some folks discussing whether or not gays should face the death penalty.

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Now, if you're a gay person, interested in questions of faith and looking (perhaps somewhat subconsciously) for a community where you might be able to seek out the Source of abundant life, are you really going to try somewhere where you are aware that people literally think you should be killed?

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Whether the Archdiocese of Sydney authorizes same-sex marriages or not, the policy of the church is not to condone the murder of gays; and I am willing to bet that the diocese does not witness sermons calling for the imposition of the death penalty for those who are gay. If I am wrong about that, someone had better let me know right away.

zippy2006 said:

Telling people who disagree with church teaching not to come to church is not slandering them by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is there any legitimate concern about the safety of gay people caused by the archbishop's comments.

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Exactly, it is as if people want to dismantle orthodoxy in favor of something they like better

GingerBeer said:

Isn't that the way theologies are constructed; a person takes some verses and gives them great emphasis interpreting them in a particular way and then finds ways to interpret other passages to force them into conformity with the system that's been created?

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Only unorthodox theologies

charsan said:

Only unorthodox theologies

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Of course! Only the other guy's theology

Heavenhome said:

Posters in shop windows, health centres, doctors, TV, ads, rainbow flags, to name a few, seriously I don't need or WANT to know about peoples sexuality, I treat everyone how I would like to be treated regardless of their sexuality.
This is my last post here because honestly you are derailing the OP.
I have answered enough and don't want to be doing the same.
Regards

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I support all types of families. If you see this on posters, then that's a shame that you have a problem. Sorry. People have all kinds of flags and bumper stickers. Have you considered another island to live on?

redleghunter said:

But in pockets of the hall, there was also discomfort, if not with the core sentiment then with the tone. Davies has long been frustrated by what he believes is the excessive liberalism or tolerance of other Australian bishops towards same-sex relationships, particularly among clergy.

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Treat others as you'd want them to treat you. Yes, very radical.

Quartermaine said:

I don't understand why anyone would belong to a congregation where they are hated and treated with contempt.

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I agree. We should love everyone.. This does not mean that we do what they want over what God wants. If they want to come to church... that is fine.... But, don't expect the church to change it's rules for you... and if they don't.... claim that you are hated...

Quartermaine said:

I've ask many in the LGBT community who are attached to such congregations and the answer is usually the same. They view their church as wrong and feel it would be wrong to abandon that church to it's heresy so they stay and forgive members of their congregation that threat them badly and pray that God forgives them as well.

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I don't think that any congregation should treat anyone badly. However, they are not being "treated badly" just because the church doesn't do as they would like.

I don't go to a vegetarian restaurant and shout that I am being treated badly because they won't cook me a steak.

Quartermaine said:

the government can't compel any church to preform any sacrament that individual does not want to. Churches are not businesses or places of public accommodation so civil rights laws and anti-discrimination laws do not apply to them. This is why some churches turn away interracial couples or reject black people from joining their congregations, such actions are perfectly legal. Sad but legal.

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Yes, that would be sad. I would leave any church that did not allow someone to join due to those reasons.. Or even if they were Gay.. But... If that gay person tried to change the rules of the church.... that is not right either.

What is happening is that the government is refusing the "registered charitable organization" distinction from churches... if they refuse to do things like accept the ideals of the LGBT......That... is not freedom of religion....

Try doing things like that to a Muslim Mosque..... You will be called an Islamophobe.... and face the anger of the Muslim's...Huge protests... OH.. we cannot do that..

But, even though that would be wrong.. the Muslims would raise such a clamor the government would cower... Yet.. Christians.... yeah... they are losing rights all over the place...

Daniel C said:

He would have ordered the 12 Apostles to cast stones, especially Peter being the "rock".

The master wouldn't degrade himself by throwing a stone when he has assistants to do it for him.

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I doubt it... Jesus was the one who let the prostitute go and told her to "sin no more"....

I don't know if you are trying to be humorous or are just misinformed.

hedrick said:

Because they're Christian, and want to make a commitment before God and their congregation?

By most measures gays are less religious than the general population, but there are still a substantial number who are Christian, even active Christian. They might reasonably want to be married in their church.

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If you were a medium... would you want the church to allow you to hold a seance?
If you were a thief, would you ask the church to store your stolen goods?
If you were a bartender, would you expect the church to set up your bar in the back room?
If you ran a strip joint.. should the church set aside a room for your strip acts?
If you were a con man.. would you ask the church to aid in your cons and frauds?
If you liked to gamble... should the church set up a casino for you, in it's basement?

OK.. now... would you ask them to do any of these and state that it's OK because you are a Christian?

I don't think you can actively work in a church and be associated with it if you are any of these... Why would being Gay, a sinful lifestyle, be any different.

I do know people who are gay BUT are not living the sinful life style. They are actively seeking release from it...

People want their ears tickled.. They want to say that God would accept it because they are "Christian" However... a sin is a sin is a sin. Actively and publicly pursuing it... is not Christian.

SkyWriting said:

I support all types of families. If you see this on posters, then that's a shame that you have a problem. Sorry. People have all kinds of flags and bumper stickers. Have you considered another island to live on?

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Hi, just checking in today, I am sorry you feel the need to make any of this personal with me.
I would prefer you to either address the OP and leave me out of your goading.
This forum is to discuss opinions and if you have a problem with anyone who doesn't explicitly follow yours then perhaps it is you that needs the island.
Gods Church is made up of redeemed sinners of which I am no better than any other person on earth. However I cannot say in opposition to what the Bible ( therefore God) that things named as sin are otherwise.

There is a whole list there and let it be noted homosexuality is one among many and the other thing is if you practice it as if you practised lying, fornication, stealing etc you have no right to expect God to change because it doesn't fit with the culture of anything goes.
The Bible as I have said before is what I follow and that is the whole of it, hard passages or not.

JacksBratt said:

If you were a medium... would you want the church to allow you to hold a seance?...

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Sometimes I imagine these people sitting down at their church's comment box, reading the complaints, and insisting that every complaint must be accommodated! It's the ecclesial equivalent of "the customer is always right!"

...then their bishop visits their parish and gives them the evil eye after being offered Star Bucks, a Big Mac, and a monthly subscription to Cosmopolitan.

JacksBratt said:

If you were a medium... would you want the church to allow you to hold a seance?
If you were a thief, would you ask the church to store your stolen goods?
If you were a bartender, would you expect the church to set up your bar in the back room?
If you ran a strip joint.. should the church set aside a room for your strip acts?
If you were a con man.. would you ask the church to aid in your cons and frauds?
If you liked to gamble... should the church set up a casino for you, in it's basement?

OK.. now... would you ask them to do any of these and state that it's OK because you are a Christian?

I don't think you can actively work in a church and be associated with it if you are any of these... Why would being Gay, a sinful lifestyle, be any different.

I do know people who are gay BUT are not living the sinful life style. They are actively seeking release from it...

People want their ears tickled.. They want to say that God would accept it because they are "Christian" However... a sin is a sin is a sin. Actively and publicly pursuing it... is not Christian.

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Exactly, I could not have said it better.

SkyWriting said:

I support all types of families. If you see this on posters, then that's a shame that you have a problem. Sorry. People have all kinds of flags and bumper stickers. Have you considered another island to live on?

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That's very nice... It's very kind of you to be accepting of people the way they are..

We all do, for the most part... However, God made some rules and put down some lines in the sand..

I don't really care what anyone does behind closed doors.. Long as someone isn't being abused.. held against their will or any other sort of immoral, illegal, hurtful, abusive treatment.

BUT... don't go trying to tell the church that they have to accept and adapt to things that go against their foundational framework....

JacksBratt said:

If you were a medium... would you want the church to allow you to hold a seance?
If you were a thief, would you ask the church to store your stolen goods?

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As you probably know, CF rules don't permit a discussion of the acceptability of gay relationships here, nor would it likely be very useful. I was responding to a question of why gays would want to be married in a church. The answer is that they have the same reasons that anyone does for wanting to be married before God. It should be obvious that the people involved don't accept your views on sexual ethics, nor do their churches.

hedrick said:

As you probably know, CF rules don't permit a discussion of the acceptability of gay relationships here, nor would it likely be very useful. I was responding to a question of why gays would want to be married in a church. The answer is that they have the same reasons that anyone does for wanting to be married before God. It should be obvious that the people involved don't accept your views on sexual ethics, nor do their churches.

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Which is pretty sad and damning on those churches.

JacksBratt said:

What is happening is that the government is refusing the "registered charitable organization" distinction from churches... if they refuse to do things like accept the ideals of the LGBT......That... is not freedom of religion....

Try doing things like that to a Muslim Mosque..... You will be called an Islamophobe.... and face the anger of the Muslim's...Huge protests... OH.. we cannot do that..

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I'd appreciate a reference to where that's been done. The only thing I've seen is where activists wanted it to happen.

Muslim groups are not likely to be immune. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/assalam-mosque-ottawa-charity-revoked-1.4780280 That particular action involved more than rejection of gays, but that was one of the issues. Should Canada actually remove tax-exempt status from churches that reject gays there's every reason to expect them to do it for mosques as well.

I should note that Muslim attitudes towards gays, at least in the US (and presumably Canada) aren't as negative as you may assume. Like Americans overall, Muslims now more accepting of homosexuality. That's a much higher acceptance rate than among evangelicals.

Albion said:

Whether the Archdiocese of Sydney authorizes same-sex marriages or not, the policy of the church is not to condone the murder of gays; and I am willing to bet that the diocese does not witness sermons calling for the imposition of the death penalty for those who are gay. If I am wrong about that, someone had better let me know right away.

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My point, Albion, is that gays are not getting a message of genuine love, care and respect from churches.

And that is harming our mission. And it is harming our communities. And I don't feel the kind of rhetoric we're discussing here should ever pass the lips of someone whose charge it is to care for souls, much less of bishops.

Albion said:

Whether the Archdiocese of Sydney authorizes same-sex marriages or not, the policy of the church is not to condone the murder of gays; and I am willing to bet that the diocese does not witness sermons calling for the imposition of the death penalty for those who are gay. If I am wrong about that, someone had better let me know right away.

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Firstly, let me assure you @Albion the Diocese of Sydney is unlikely to authorise same sex marriage any time soon, quite the reverse. What is being discussed (and not as far as I am aware in Sydney) is an effort to find a place for a single gender couple who have been married by the state to have their covenanted monogamous relationship blessed/recognised in church. The Church cannot ignore the relationship, and is not free to marry either of the partners to a person of opposite gender until that relationship is formally and legally dissolved by death or decree absolute. Part of how the Church acts in Marriage is as an officer of the state. The Church is not bound by the state to perform marriages that are outside the Church's understanding of marriage, however it must at least honour those marriages confirmed by the state if it is to have credibility to continue to act for the state in marriage.

The ArchBishop of Sydney's remarks were directed against those who wish to change the Church's understanding of marriage. The legislation that went to the Synod of the neighboring Diocese of Newcastle quite clearly in no way expressed a desire to change that historic foundation of the understanding of marriage, but rather to enable those single gender couples who have the desire to be true and faithful to each other and to God, to find in Church a place of welcome and hospitality.

In many ways it part of a bigger question, How do we be church in the midst of the secular pluralism in which we find ourselves? It is quite clear that the Church is not perfect, and possibly never has been. Yes, we are called to be journeying towards perfection, yet that in the main remains aspirational rather than actual.

In relation to condoning the murder of gays, I am not sure that supporting the gay panic defence is quite the same, however it does run perilously close. To me it seems clear that none of this is simple or easy, and none of us are trying to break the Church, but rather trying to give true witness to the word become flesh who tabernacles among us.

It is not the Church's job to make people feel comfortable in their sin ... although sadly some clergy act as if it is.