If....

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
3rd grade English refutes your statement. God is not willing that any of us should perish. The context you claim to hold to in your previous post makes it clear who Peter is talking about. The Bible was not written to unbelievers but to believers. So your statement is just another twist of Scriptures.

Lol, the Bible isn't written to non believers? Really? Why would we encourage non believers to read the Bible? The might become believers! Are you serious? I can't believe you said that.

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
Once more you twist words and produce meanings that simply aren't true.

I hope you are saying that while looking in the mirror. The Bible is for all, so they might learn to follow God. How could any Christian not see that truth?

twin1954 · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
No answers?

I have given you answers which you ignore and don't respond to. Refute my arguments if you can.

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
No the sheep are defined as those who are taught of God.

John 6:44-45 (KJV) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And hearing and learning are choice's we are all given. If we don't choose to hear or learn, that's on us. God frees the will of all to hear if they choose. BTW, why jump to another chapter and try to insert a verse from another context?

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
You are using a poor translation of the Greek. The NASB is considered the most accurate translation of the Greek and it says the same as the ESV that I quote here:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter was writing to those who had obtained like precious faith:

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Now apply that knowledge to 2Pet. 3:9. In the Greek context defines how words are used and their interpretation. Pantas in the Greek is tied closely to the context. It means, in it's context, all of you.

Therefore your assertion is false.

It makes no sense to claim he directing this to those who have already repented. God wants all believers to become believers? It's spoken to believers, yes, so they know that God wants everyone brought in.

Hammster · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
You are totally reading it backwards. Before he says they are sheep, he explains that the way to become a sheep is to enter through him.
Why would you assume there's restrictions on who can enter when it says whoever?

Actually, I’m reading it as it says. You are reading your theology into it.

To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
— John 10:3-4

Do you see anything in there about becoming a sheep?

twin1954 · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
Lol, the Bible isn't written to non believers? Really? Why would we encourage non believers to read the Bible? The might become believers! Are you serious? I can't believe you said that.

Of course it isn't written to unbelievers. The Bible is not the power of God unto salvation to them that believe, the preaching of the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord is.

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Romans 10:13-15 (KJV) 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

There is a huge difference between reading the Bible and understanding the Bible. Anyone can read the words and grasp the sentences but it takes the Spirit to open up the Word. Those who do not have the Spirit cannot understand the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (KJV) 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

twin1954 · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
It makes no sense to claim he directing this to those who have already repented. God wants all believers to become believers? It's spoken to believers, yes, so they know that God wants everyone brought in.

Again you ignore the context in order to twist it to your theology.

The context is Peter speaking to believers concerning the promises of God. Telling them that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. He tells them, speaking of those who will believe, the Lord is longsuffering toward us not willing that any (of us) should perish.

Peter warned them of the evil of the last days because they, like us, looked for His return at any time. He explains to them that the Lord will come again when He has accomplished all His purpose in the salvation of His elect. He tells them this in order to comfort them concering the promise of His coming. The context is clear.

twin1954 · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
It makes no sense to claim he directing this to those who have already repented. God wants all believers to become believers? It's spoken to believers, yes, so they know that God wants everyone brought in.

It makes perfect sense in it's context.

That is one of the many problems with free will theology. You take snippets of Scriptures ripped out of their contexts to build your theology. You quote Scripture verses as though they stand alone and use them as proof texts. Which is considered by hemenutics to be poor interpretation and the basis of heresy.

We, on the other hand, build our theology on the Scriptures as a whole. Where something is unclear we go to where it is clear. We interpret Scripture by the context of the whole of Scriptures. Our theology is built on the Scriptures as a whole not isolated texts that seem to support our theology.

twin1954 · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
I hope you are saying that while looking in the mirror. The Bible is for all, so they might learn to follow God. How could any Christian not see that truth?

You do err not knowing the scriptures. The Bible is for those who have the Spirit. People don't learn to follow God, they who are born from above do it naturally. The Scriptures alone are our only rule of faith and practice. From the Scriptures we who believe learn of the things of Christ by the Spirit and rejoice in Him. We see Him as the theme, subject and purpose of the Scriptures. By the Scriptures we learn to rest in Him alone. The Scriptures are not written to teach us how but to teach us Who.

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
Of course it isn't written to unbelievers. The Bible is not the power of God unto salvation to them that believe, the preaching of the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord is.

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Romans 10:13-15 (KJV) 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

There is a huge difference between reading the Bible and understanding the Bible. Anyone can read the words and grasp the sentences but it takes the Spirit to open up the Word. Those who do not have the Spirit cannot understand the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (KJV) 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Oh, so you are one of those who don't believe a person can read the Word of God and be saved, but must have some lofty theological training?
The Bible repeatedly claims to be God's word. See 1 Corinthians 14:37; 2:10-13; Ephesians 3:3-5; John 16:13; Matthew 10:19,20; Galatians 1:8-12; 2 Peter 1:20,21; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; Luke 10:16.
If the Bible is God's word, it must harmonize with God's nature. When we study the Bible and when we understand God's nature, then we necessarily must believe that we can understand the Bible. To claim that we cannot understand the Bible is either to deny that it is God's word or to impugn the character of God Himself.

1 Timothy 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. God does not want some to understand, but others are incapable. He wants all to know the truth.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 - The Scriptures were revealed by God to teach and instruct us in righteousness and provide us to all good works.

Romans 1:16 - The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.

Titus 1:1-3 - God manifested (make known) His word in the message which was entrusted to Paul according to God's command.

The very words in the Bible were chosen by the all-wise, all-powerful God.
1 Corinthians 2:12,13 - Inspired men received God's Spirit so they could know what God revealed and could speak them in words which the Holy Spirit taught them.

God commands and requires men to understand His word.
Mark 7:14 - Jesus' teachings were intended for the common people (multitudes), and He expected and commanded them all to understand His teachings.
Luke 8:11; Matthew 13:19,23 - The seed of the gospel is the word of God. Those whom the Lord considers to be good and fruitful are those who understand the word. Those who do not understand are unacceptable.

So God requires and commands all people to understand, and we must understand to have His approval and to have faith. Yet how can God be just, loving, and gracious in these requirements, if in fact understanding is impossible?

[Colossians 1:9-11; Philippians 1:9-11; James 1:21-25]
God will judge men and reward them eternally according to their obedience to His word.
John 12:48 - Jesus said, "The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day." [Romans 2:16]

Acts 17:30,31 - These times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world by the Man whom He has ordained.

God always speaks truth and always keeps His promises. But in the following passages He has stated or promised that we can understand His word.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 - The Scriptures are able to make us wise to salvation. They are profitable to teach and instruct us and to provide us to all good works. How could they make us wise and profit us in these things if we cannot understand them?

Isaiah 55:11 - God's word will not return to Him void, but it shall accomplish what He pleases and prosper in the thing for which He sent it. But He sent it to reveal His will to men, etc. If we cannot understand it, then it does not prosper nor did it accomplish what He sent it for.

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
Again you ignore the context in order to twist it to your theology.

The context is Peter speaking to believers concerning the promises of God. Telling them that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. He tells them, speaking of those who will believe, the Lord is longsuffering toward us not willing that any (of us) should perish.

Peter warned them of the evil of the last days because they, like us, looked for His return at any time. He explains to them that the Lord will come again when He has accomplished all His purpose in the salvation of His elect. He tells them this in order to comfort them concering the promise of His coming. The context is clear.

It's clear all right. It's saying God is being patient in order that more people might have the opportunity to be saved. Notice that Peter uses Noah as a comparison. Was God patient in Noah's day only because of those already saved? God was demonstrating well-meant patience toward all sinners at that time, but they sinned against that patience and incurred His divine wrath.

Hammster · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
It's clear all right. It's saying God is being patient in order that more people might have the opportunity to be saved. Notice that Peter uses Noah as a comparison. Was God patient in Noah's day only because of those already saved? God was demonstrating well-meant patience toward all sinners at that time, but they sinned against that patience and incurred His divine wrath.

He was patient towards Noah and his family.

twin1954 · Oct 27, 2019

renniks said:
Oh, so you are one of those who don't believe a person can read the Word of God and be saved, but must have some lofty theological training?
The Bible repeatedly claims to be God's word. See 1 Corinthians 14:37; 2:10-13; Ephesians 3:3-5; John 16:13; Matthew 10:19,20; Galatians 1:8-12; 2 Peter 1:20,21; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; Luke 10:16.
If the Bible is God's word, it must harmonize with God's nature. When we study the Bible and when we understand God's nature, then we necessarily must believe that we can understand the Bible. To claim that we cannot understand the Bible is either to deny that it is God's word or to impugn the character of God Himself.

1 Timothy 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. God does not want some to understand, but others are incapable. He wants all to know the truth.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 - The Scriptures were revealed by God to teach and instruct us in righteousness and provide us to all good works.

Romans 1:16 - The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.

Titus 1:1-3 - God manifested (make known) His word in the message which was entrusted to Paul according to God's command.

The very words in the Bible were chosen by the all-wise, all-powerful God.
1 Corinthians 2:12,13 - Inspired men received God's Spirit so they could know what God revealed and could speak them in words which the Holy Spirit taught them.

God commands and requires men to understand His word.
Mark 7:14 - Jesus' teachings were intended for the common people (multitudes), and He expected and commanded them all to understand His teachings.
Luke 8:11; Matthew 13:19,23 - The seed of the gospel is the word of God. Those whom the Lord considers to be good and fruitful are those who understand the word. Those who do not understand are unacceptable.

So God requires and commands all people to understand, and we must understand to have His approval and to have faith. Yet how can God be just, loving, and gracious in these requirements, if in fact understanding is impossible?

[Colossians 1:9-11; Philippians 1:9-11; James 1:21-25]
God will judge men and reward them eternally according to their obedience to His word.
John 12:48 - Jesus said, "The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day." [Romans 2:16]

Acts 17:30,31 - These times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world by the Man whom He has ordained.

God always speaks truth and always keeps His promises. But in the following passages He has stated or promised that we can understand His word.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 - The Scriptures are able to make us wise to salvation. They are profitable to teach and instruct us and to provide us to all good works. How could they make us wise and profit us in these things if we cannot understand them?

Isaiah 55:11 - God's word will not return to Him void, but it shall accomplish what He pleases and prosper in the thing for which He sent it. But He sent it to reveal His will to men, etc. If we cannot understand it, then it does not prosper nor did it accomplish what He sent it for.

Once more you put words in my mouth in order to create a red herring. Sad really. I said no such thing as you suggest. I said that the Bible wasn't written to unbelievers. Unbelievers take the Bible and use it to imagine a god that fits their idea of who he ought to be. They hate the one true God as He is revealed in the Scriptures. They take one or two of His attributes and make a God out of them.

Who are you to sit in judgment of God? Your problem isn't with me or Calvinsts but with God. Take it up with Him.

I have answered your posts but you do not answer mine. To what point is it to continue to argue with you? Typical of free will works religionists.

twin1954 · Oct 27, 2019

If you ever actually learn how to form an argument and debate come back. I am done with this nonsense.

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
If you ever actually learn how to form an argument and debate come back. I am done with this nonsense.

Typical arrogant Calvinist response.

renniks · Oct 27, 2019

twin1954 said:
Once more you put words in my mouth in order to create a red herring. Sad really. I said no such thing as you suggest. I said that the Bible wasn't written to unbelievers. Unbelievers take the Bible and use it to imagine a god that fits their idea of who he ought to be. They hate the one true God as He is revealed in the Scriptures. They take one or two of His attributes and make a God out of them.

Who are you to sit in judgment of God? Your problem isn't with me or Calvinsts but with God. Take it up with Him.

I have answered your posts but you do not answer mine. To what point is it to continue to argue with you? Typical of free will works religionists.

You said the Bible is not for unbelievers. I give a reply explaining why it is certainly written for unbelievers which was what we all were at one time, and you tell me my argument is with God? What post didn't I answer?

JM · Oct 28, 2019

renniks said:
You said the Bible is not for unbelievers. I give a reply explaining why it is certainly written for unbelievers which was what we all were at one time, and you tell me my argument is with God? What post didn't I answer?

All of them. You are too busy spouting lies and half truths to pump up your ego.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

renniks · Oct 28, 2019

JM said:
All of them. You are too busy spouting lies and half truths to pump up your ego.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

You guys are no fun...try to loosen up a bit!

Oh right, you are predestined to act exactly as you do....

S.ilvio · Oct 29, 2019

JM said:
Huh? Says a guy who belongs to the "One, Holy Catholic Church..." that holds an anathema against Christians not in communion with their Pope! Claiming there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Like that's not elitism. lol

I, as Catholic, accept fully that I can lose Salvation if I am unrepentant of my sinful ways as we are told clearly in Hebrews.

You, on the other hand, see yourself as having your Salvation secured because God chose you and created me with the sole eternal intent of populating the pits of Hell.

Go figure...

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