Did WW II and the Holocaust Help to Ignite Vatican II?

PeaceByJesus

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Neither Nostra Aetate nor Gaudium et Spes are dogmatic constitutions,

But if papal encyclicals require religous assent and can express (purported) infallibly defined teachings.
That said, I grant that Cantate Domino is a difficult text to reconcile.
However, historical (medieval) Catholic teaching is that, rather than the laity trying to figure what magisterial class each teaching falls under, and thus what level of assent is required (which leads to confusion and divisions), then the basic RC rule is to simply follow the understanding of the present leadership (the "living magisterium,") in any matter or question it addresses. For,

'the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors," "to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff," "of submitting with docility to their judgment," with "no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed... not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ;" and 'not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority, " for "obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces," and not set up "some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them," "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent." (Sources: Jude 1:3: Required Catholic submission)
 
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PeaceByJesus

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PeaceByJesus said:

And also damning souls that were saved, and when "Christian Charity" could mean torturing suspected witnesses of suspected heretics and exterminating those convicted thereby.

please dont derail this thread by posting propaganda.
You mean you actually deny that torturing suspected witnesses of suspected heretics and exterminating those convicted thereby was required of Catholics and practiced? You can retract your charge unless you want documentation contrary your propaganda.
 
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concretecamper

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You can retract your charge unless you want documentation contrary your propagand
all I'm asking is dont derail this theead by posting stupid propaganda that has little basis in fact. There are plenty of threads in which you can engage in such frivolity.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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please dont derail this thread by posting propaganda.
So you do deny torturing suspected witnesses of suspected heretics and exterminating those convicted thereby. OK, I will replace suspected witnesses with "even witnesses" since the suspected aspect of that is an extrapolation, but the well-documented fact is that torturing witnesses of suspected heretics and exterminating those convicted thereby was if fact part of historical RC teaching (emphasis mine throughout) :


Catholic Encyclopedia > C > General Councils:

The Church has the right, as a perfect and independent society provided with all the means for attaining its end, decide according to its laws disputes arising concerning its internal affairs, especially as to the ecclesiastical rights of its members, also to carry out its decision, if necessary, by suitable means of compulsion, contentious or civil jurisdiction. It has, therefore, the right to admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction.

This flowed from the romanization of the 3rd c. church.


Roman Theological Forum, September 2005:
The Theodosian Code (5th century).5 This is a compilation of imperial laws dating from the Edict of Milan (313) to the year 438, during the reign of [Catholic] Emperor Theodosius II...

Catholicism has now been explicitly and emphatically the Roman state religion since the imperial edict of February 28, 380,6 but the laws remain to a great extent in fundamental continuity with the old pagan legislation – including its reliance on interrogatory torture (quaestio) as a standard part of judicial practice for serious crimes. It was even prescribed, under certain circumstances, for witnesses, not just those accused of a crime.7 Infliction of severe bodily pain is also included in the Code as punishment for those duly convicted of crime. We read, for instance, that corrupt public officials are to suffer "the punishment of flogging and torture".8 As for those guilty of crime against the Emperor in person (lèse-majesté), "tortures shall tear them to pieces".9 All in all, the Theodosian Code provides for torture, either as quaestio or as punishment for convicted criminals, in no less than 40 legally specified situations.10 However the higher clergy are exempt: bishops and priests (but not "clerics of a lower grade") "shall be able to give their testimony without the outrage of torture, that is, without corporal punishment"

The treatment of heretics and schismatics in this original Christian respublica was severe, but milder than in subsequent mediaeval times....

St. Thomas Aquinas (13th century). The Angelic Doctor never treats of torture in secular judicial inquiries. However, without mentioning the word, he does justify the contemporary Inquisition’s use of torture (recently introduced in 1252 by Pope Innocent IV – cf. B4 below). Like Augustine eight centuries earlier justifying imperial force used against the Donatist schismatics...he first acknowledges that those who have never been Christians (i.e., Jews, pagans and Muslims) may not be forced to embrace the faith, but then continues: "On the other hand, there are unbelievers who at some time have accepted the faith, and professed it, such as heretics and all apostates: such should be submitted even to bodily compulsion, that they may fulfil what they have promised, and hold what they, at one time, received"...

B4 Pope Innocent IV, Bull Ad Exstirpanda (May 15, 1252). This fateful document introduced confession-extorting torture into tribunals of the Inquisition. It had already been reinstated in secular processes over the previous hundred years, during which Roman Law was being vigorously revived. Innocent’s Bull prescribes that captured heretics, being "murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb... [but see under Pegna below] (LT119 - Torture and Corporal Punishment as a Problem in Catholic Theology: Part II. The Witness of Tradition and Magisterium)

Pope Innocent IV, Ad extirpanda
:

The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody...to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and specify their motives, {9} and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them, as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed....

(31) The head of state or ruler must send one of his aides...This aide,as the aforesaid inquisitors shall have determined, will compel three men or more, reliable witnesses,or, if it seem good to them, the whole neighborhood, to testify to the aforesaid inquisitors if they have detected any heretics, or want to expose their motives,{9} ... The head of state shall proceed against the accused according to the laws of the Emperor Frederick when he governed Padua... - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,_Bulla_'Ad_Extirpanda',_EN.pdf

English Catholic Paul Johnson, History of Christianity:

The codification of legislation against heresy took place over half a century, roughly 1180-1230, when it culminated in the creation of a permanent tribunal, staffed by Dominican friars, who worked from a fixed base in conjunction with the episcopate, and were endowed with generous authority...

Convictions of thought-crimes being difficult to secure, the Inquisition used procedures banned in other courts, and so contravened town charters, written and customary laws, and virtually every aspect of established jurisprudence. The names of hostile witnesses were withheld, anonymous informers were used, the accusations of personal enemies were allowed, the accused were denied the right of defence, or of defending counsel; and there was no appeal.

The object, quite simply, was to produce convictions at any cost; only thus, it was thought, could heresy be quenched. Hence depositors were not named; all a suspect could do was to produce a list of his enemies, and he was allowed to bring forward witnesses to testify that such enemies existed, but for no other purpose. On the other hand, the prosecution could use the evidence of criminals, heretics, children and accomplices, usually forbidden in other courts.

Once an area became infected by heresy, and the system moved in, large numbers of people became entangled in its toils. Children of heretics could not inherit, as the stain was vicarial; grandchildren could not hold ecclesiastical benefices unless they successfully denounced someone. Everyone from the age of fourteen (girls from twelve) were required to take public oaths every two years to remain good Catholics and denounce heretics. Failure to confess or receive communion at least three times a year aroused automatic suspicion; possession of the scriptures in any language, or of breviaries, hour-books and psalters in the vernacular, was forbidden.

Torture was not employed regularly until near the end of the thirteenth century (except by secular officials without reference to the Inquisition) but suspects could be held in prison and summoned again and again until they yielded, the object of the operation being to obtain admissions or denunciations. When torture was adopted it was subjected to canonical restraints - if it produced nothing on the first occasion it was forbidden to repeat it. But such regulations were open to glosses; Francis Pegna, the leading Inquisition commentator, wrote:

'But if, having been tortured reasonably (decenter), he will not confess the truth, set other sorts of torments before him, saying that he must pass through all these unless he will confess the truth. If even this fails, a second or third day may be appointed to him, either in terrorem or even in truth, for the continuation (not repetition) of torture; for tortures may not be repeated unless fresh evidence emerges against him; then, indeed, they may, for against continuation there is no prohibition.'...

The smallest punishment was to wear yellow cloth crosses - an unpopular penalty since it prevented a man from getting employment; on the other hand, to cease to wear it was treated as a relapse into heresy. A spell in prison was virtually inevitable. — Paul Johnson, History of Christianity, © 1976 Athenium, pgs. 253-255.

Inquisition | Roman Catholicism
When instituting an inquiry in a district, an inquisitor would normally declare a period of grace during which those who voluntarily confessed their own involvement in heresy and that of others would be given only light penances. The inquisitor used these confessions to compile a list of suspects whom he summoned to his tribunal. Failure to appear was considered evidence of guilt. The trial was often a battle of wits between the inquisitor and the accused. The only other people present were a notary, who kept a record of the proceedings, and sworn witnesses, who attested the record’s accuracy. No lawyer would defend a suspect for fear of being accused of abetting heresy, and suspects were not normally told what charges had been made against them or by whom. The accused might appeal to the pope before proceedings began, but this involved considerable expense.

Extermination of heretics:

► Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council (canon 3), 1215:
Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold shall... strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.

But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler’s vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action.

Error condemned] That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit. Exsurge Domine, Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520 Exsurge Domine - Papal Encyclicals

On 16 March 1244, a large and symbolically important massacre took place, where over 200 Cathar Perfects were burnt in an enormous fire at the prat dels cremats near the foot of the castle. Moreover, the Church decreed lesser chastisements against laymen suspected of sympathy with Cathars, at the 1235 Council of Narbonne. — Catharism - Wikipedia
 
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Basil the Great

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PeaceByJesus - I take no back seat on this forum to anyone when it comes to a negative view of the Holy Inquisition and the burning of heretics at the stake. However, where I part company with most Protestants, is that for me, this history is more a blight upon the entire Christian family, than it is against the Catholic Church. Also, lest we forget, Protestants committed some atrocities as well, even if not the same level and length of time as what happened under the Holy Inquisition. Regardless, unwarranted violence is a blight upon all of Christianity, especially how the Jews were treated.
 
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Athanasius377

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While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?

This is a fascinating subject. I’m not so sure about WWII and the Holocaust though I think it was important. I’m my opinion I think WWI was more devastating to the church because it gave rise to distrust to our institutions both sacred and secular. Consider, and entire Christian continent hellbent on destruction the likes of which had not been seen since the 30 years war. Recall that the peace of Westphalia (1648) basically ended the wars of religion in Europe and set forth a system more based on the nation state that stood until Napoleon and the fragile peace that ensued. Yet there was still basic trust in the west’s institutions. That is until WWI. IMO VII would have occurred if WII had not happened. WWII shattered the trust in secular solutions to which VII responded to.

I’m not dogmatic about this. It’s just my two cents and we are still too close to these events to definitively analyze the same.
 
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Concord1968

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This is a fascinating subject. I’m not so sure about WWII and the Holocaust though I think it was important. I’m my opinion I think WWI was more devastating to the church because it gave rise to distrust to our institutions both sacred and secular. Consider, and entire Christian continent hellbent on destruction the likes of which had not been seen since the 30 years war. Recall that the peace of Westphalia (1648) basically ended the wars of religion in Europe and set forth a system more based on the nation state that stood until Napoleon and the fragile peace that ensued. Yet there was still basic trust in the west’s institutions. That is until WWI. IMO VII would have occurred if WII had not happened. WWII shattered the trust in secular solutions to which VII responded to.

I’m not dogmatic about this. It’s just my two cents and we are still too close to these events to definitively analyze the same.
I remember reading somewhere (Niall Ferguson maybe?) that World War I turned practically an entire generation of Brits atheist. Primarily from the resentment towards the Anglican divines who exhorted them as they marched off to the trenches.
 
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Athanasius377

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I think you may find some interesting facts with which you can add to your investigation if you looked into why Vatican I ended so abruptly.

Really? I really want to know. I suspect we are not too far way in our opinions. Please do respond.
 
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Athanasius377

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I remember reading somewhere (Niall Ferguson maybe?) that World War I turned practically an entire generation of Brits atheist. Primarily from the resentment towards the Anglican divines who exhorted them as they marched off to the trenches.

I think we agree in principal. That’s more or less my point of view. I’ll have to check out your source. Sounds fascinating. I have always wondered what happened to the Anglican Church during this time. I wonder if there is a Lutheran equivalent?
 
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Basil the Great

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I remember reading somewhere (Niall Ferguson maybe?) that World War I turned practically an entire generation of Brits atheist. Primarily from the resentment towards the Anglican divines who exhorted them as they marched off to the trenches.
I suspect that WW I did play a significant part in turning some of Europe's Christians into agnostics or even atheists.
 
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Concord1968

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I think we agree in principal. That’s more or less my point of view. I’ll have to check out your source. Sounds fascinating. I have always wondered what happened to the Anglican Church during this time. I wonder if there is a Lutheran equivalent?
I think it's Niall Ferguson, but I'm not certain. Best bet is his book "The Pity Of War".
 
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Athanasius377

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I suspect that WW I did play a significant part in turning some of Europe's Christians into agnostics or even atheists.
I agree. Both East and west. An entire Christian continent slaughtered and for what? To fight again in 20 years. There's definitely more research that needs to be done.
 
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Redwingfan9

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While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
There's no doubt the war created a major upheaval throughout the world, largely for the negative. It had major, mostly negative implications for the church. Whether it is responsible for vatican II I can't really say. The war definitely played a role in the decline of christianity in the west, there's no doubt about it.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Oh, I forgot, if you read it on the internet, it must be true^_^

Please.dont derail this thread.
Meaning your dismissal of what is well-substantiated is absurd since it is based upon the spurious premise that since the source is the Internet then it cannot be true, while in no way was the veracity of my statement based upon that the premise that since I read it on the internet, it must be true. Instead, it is based upon substantiation that can be accessed on the Internet, as well as libraries.

Nor was I derailing the thread, since the aspect of the loss of the temporal power of Rome was part of my analysis as to why V2 changed its stance on EENS, which addressed the question of the OP.

But if you need to resort to rejecting whatever refutes you since you read it on the Internet, then logically you should get off it.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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PeaceByJesus - I take no back seat on this forum to anyone when it comes to a negative view of the Holy Inquisition and the burning of heretics at the stake. However, where I part company with most Protestants, is that for me, this history is more a blight upon the entire Christian family, than it is against the Catholic Church. Also, lest we forget, Protestants committed some atrocities as well, even if not the same level and length of time as what happened under the Holy Inquisition. Regardless, unwarranted violence is a blight upon all of Christianity, especially how the Jews were treated.
Perhaps you mean this history is more a blight upon the entire Christian family, than it is against the Catholic Church alone, since lest we forget, Protestants committed some atrocities as well.

This is true if Christianity is defined in broad terms, as early Prots had to unlearn many unscriptural things from Rome. And which re-formation is not finished.
 
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Basil the Great

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I agree. Both East and west. An entire Christian continent slaughtered and for what? To fight again in 20 years. There's definitely more research that needs to be done.
When you think about it, Europe went from World War I to a world wide depression and then on to WW II. It must have been one terrible period for millions in Europe.
 
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concretecamper

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Really? I really want to know. I suspect we are not too far way in our opinions. Please do respond.

Just a few thoughts:

1. Many see that the biggest obstacle to Otto von Bismarck unifying Germany was the Catholic Church.
2. Otto von Bismark was a staunch protestant and hated the Catholic Church.
3. Vatican I was to address liberalism and modernism, something it never got a chance to do becasue of
4. Otto von Bissmark starting a war with France.
5. If the Church had addressed in Vatican I what it was called to address, the result would have been remarkably different (from the results of VII) since the liberals, at that time, were in the VAST minority.
6. I am wondering if the unification of Germany would have happened then if Vatican I accomplished all it was called to do.
 
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