Did WW II and the Holocaust Help to Ignite Vatican II?

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
 

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
IMO, your theory is reasonable--so far as the Holocaust is concerned, not WWI or the Depression. But of course it would need some evidence in order to become more than just speculation.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,772
3,371
✟241,835.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?

The doctrine of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus has a long history that begins with the Fathers and Augustine, moves through the exploration, colonialism, and political theology beginning in the late middle ages, and then encounters thinkers like Danielou, de Lubac, Balthasar, Rahner, Panikkar, and Kung, along with events like Pius XII's famous "Letter to the Archbishop of Boston," all before the Council. Vatican II is itself conservative and careful on this subject, if also somewhat progressive. The Postconcilliar Magisterium gives guidance and nuance to the conciliar documents. An important figure for the study of this topic is the Jesuit scholar Jacques Dupuis.

Dupuis, in assessing whether Vatican II should be considered "a watershed," distinguishes two questions. The first is whether individuals outside the Catholic Church can attain salvation. The second asks about the significance of non-Catholic religious traditions as means to salvation:

The first question is not new. The possibility of salvation outside the Church had been recognized by the Church tradition long before Vatican II, as has been recalled earlier. If Vatican II innovates in any way on this account, the newness must be seen in the optimistic way in which the council looks at the world at large, as is best exemplified by the pastoral constitution Gaudium et Spes. The same optimistic approach is reflected in the council's way of speaking of salvation outside the Church, Heilsoptimismus. What in previous Church documents was affirmed--firmly but cautiously--as a possibility based on God's infinite mercy and in any event to be left to his council is being taught by the council with unprecedented assurance: in ways known to him, God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (Heb 11:6) (AG 7).

Nor is the council satisfied with stating the fact. It proceeds further to explain how this concretely happens, that is, through the universal working of the Spirit of God. The clearest text in this regard is that in Gaudium et Spes where, having explained how Christians come in contact with the paschal mystery of Christ's death and resurrection, the council goes on to affirm:

All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all individuals of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly [cf. LG 16]. For since Christ died for all [cf. Rom 8:32], and since all human beings are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold (tenere debemus) that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being associated, in a way known to God, with the Paschal Mystery. (GS 22)
The second question is the more important; it is also the more complex...

(Dupuis, Toward a Christian Theology of Religious Pluralism, 161-2)
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: danbuter
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,772
3,371
✟241,835.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?

There are connections between Vatican II and the Holocaust, and Nostra Aetate was reviewed and assessed with the Shoah in mind, but I think you may be making too strong a case here.

Why do you think the doctrine about salvation outside the Church was influenced by the Holocaust, or by World War II?
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
It’s possible but inconclusive. Unless there are some theological papers leading to this view. There were some Germans who saw the horrors of WW2 which influenced their theology.

One is Jürgen Moltmann.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
There are connections between Vatican II and the Holocaust, and Nostra Aetate was reviewed and assessed with the Shoah in mind, but I think you may be making too strong a case here.

Why do you think the doctrine about salvation outside the Church was influenced by the Holocaust, or by World War II?
Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that WW II and the Holocaust were the only reasons for a change in the salvation teaching. Obviously, we all know that Modernism generally was a big factor. Undoubtedly many in the Church by the mid 1900's had begun to doubt the very narrow view of salvation that was taught by the Papal Bull Cantate Domino. Still, I just have a feeling that the horrendous pain and suffering that humanity endured in WW II and the Holocaust, gave a real push to the Church leaders to respond by loosening the doors of salvation, so to speak.

I guess I am saying that when the Church leaders looked at the terrors of WW II and the Holocaust, they asked themselves a question. With millions of Jews and Protestants and Muslims having suffered and died, did God automatically condemn all of them to eternal punishment, just because they were not members of the visible Catholic Church? Somehow, I believe that their hearts were softened by the awesome suffering of humanity and they decided it was time to express officially what most of them already believed, that the exclusivist position of Cantate Domino was no longer tenable in the mid-1900's.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,772
3,371
✟241,835.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that WW II and the Holocaust were the only reasons for a change in the salvation teaching. Obviously, we all know that Modernism generally was a big factor. Undoubtedly many in the Church by the mid 1900's had begun to doubt the very narrow view of salvation that was taught by the Papal Bull Cantate Domino. Still, I just have a feeling that the horrendous pain and suffering that humanity endured in WW II and the Holocaust, gave a real push to the Church leaders to respond by loosening the doors of salvation, so to speak.

As others have said, it would probably require greater substantiation.

One obvious consequence of the Holocaust in the Church and at Vatican II was a more forward and explicit condemnation of anti-Semitism.

A theological and political problem with your theory has to do with the complicated situation between Judaism and Christianity. Many Jews would be offended by the idea that they are saved by Christ, a "false messiah." Sympathy for the Jewish people after the Holocaust would therefore not necessarily lead to an "opening of the doors of salvation" to them. Theologically we therefore saw a greater Christian interest in Judaism qua Judaism, rather than any sort of simple salvific incorporation.
 
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
As others have said, it would probably require greater substantiation.

One obvious consequence of the Holocaust in the Church and at Vatican II was a more forward and explicit condemnation of anti-Semitism.

A theological and political problem with your theory has to do with the complicated situation between Judaism and Christianity. Many Jews would be offended by the idea that they are saved by Christ, a "false messiah." Sympathy for the Jewish people after the Holocaust would therefore not necessarily lead to an "opening of the doors of salvation" to them. Theologically we therefore saw a greater Christian interest in Judaism qua Judaism, rather than any sort of simple salvific incorporation.
Your post reminds me of something that I read re: background discussions that took place during Vatican II. Some liberals/moderates wanted Vatican II to go even further re: it's teaching about the Jews, but were told by conservatives/Traditionalists that such a move would split the Church.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Silverback

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2019
1,306
853
61
South East
✟66,756.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?

It seems reasonable that these tragic events may have forced a change. The only thing I can say is that Europe was no stranger to war, it had plagued the continent continuously since the days of Rome.
Like everywhere else I guess.

It was the Black Death that really broke the back of Rome, followed by the reformation, internal strugles, colonialism, and the list goes on.

I think though, After the entire continent was laid waste between 1933 and 1945, hardly a family escaped a death in Eastern Europe, and people demanded answers, and new answers at that.

The Catholic Church had to evolve to stay relevant, and clearly made compromises (as has every church, Protestant, Orthodox, Anglican, and the rest)

Lest just hope Christianity, stays Christian.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,779.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
I think you may find some interesting facts with which you can add to your investigation if you looked into why Vatican I ended so abruptly.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
I think you may find some interesting facts with which you can add to your investigation if you looked into why Vatican I ended so abruptly.
Thanks. I will try and do so.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It’s possible but inconclusive. Unless there are some theological papers leading to this view. There were some Germans who saw the horrors of WW2 which influenced their theology.

One is Jürgen Moltmann.

Sometime ago......I remember reading a comment from someone I can not remember that "WW1 prepared the land and WW2 prepared the people for that land."
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,775
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
While I cannot prove my thesis, I have believed it to be true for many years. I am convinced that the horrendous toll that World War II took upon humanity and especially in Europe, plus the unreal horrors of the Holocaust and it's huge impact upon the Jewish people, was a major spark that helped to cause the Catholic Church to open the doors of salvation to non-Catholics. The 2nd Vatican Council taught for the first time in a definitive manner, that non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, have the possibility of attaining salvation, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". I suppose that World War I and the worldwide depression could have been additional causes, but I think World War II carries the most weight.

What think ye? Could there be something to my thesis or am I completely off base as to why the Catholic Church changed it's interpretation of the age-old salvation doctrine known as "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation"?
The V2 contradictory "clarification" was not directly related to the real horrors WW2 but the defeat of dictatorial powers is related and the arise of a freedom in the West. Thus this is also related to Rome's slow loss of her unholy unscriptural sword of men to compel conformity amidst the corespondent increasing degree and scope of freedom of speech, which was a substitute for the spiritual power of the NT church. That loss, and the gain of freedom, and finally, her acquiescence of Rome to the spiritual declension of the West as it increasingly rejected obedience to the authority of unchanging Scripture, led to the V2 contradiction/clarification of what had been quote formally clearly declared as regards EENS, as well as other conflictive interpretations . Although as usual, it was already in contradiction to what the NT of Scripture believed, as well as lacking true unanimous consent of the (so-called) fathers.

Back in the "good ol days" that so many conservative ("true") Catholics seem to yearn for, obedience to the pope included requiring RC rulers to exterminate all she pointed out to be heretics, or they would lose their authority. (Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, canon 3, 1215)

With that power it was easy then for a pope to thunder,

We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

"If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself." — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

"The sacrosanct Roman Church...firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that..not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart into everlasting fire...unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that..no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence, Seventeenth Ecumenical Council, Cantate Domino, Bull promulgated on February 4, 1441)

Gradually the scope and degree of Rome's power of "coercive jurisdiction" as the old Catholic encyclopedia (Jurisdiction) put it decreased, although she still had some, and parroted past popes in publshing,

“There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church. (Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem, March 17, 1856)

Moreover even after the loss of practical temporal power of the popes (by 1870, outside Vatican City) yer Rome still had devout followers in an era of overall far greater commitment than what would come, and still bombastically asserted,

"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius [the eastern “Orthodox “schismatics] and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls?...Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned...” (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos: The Promotion of True Religious Unity), 11, Encyclical promulgated on January 6, 1928, #11)

However, not only had the loss practical temporal power of the popes enabled more opposition, but the defeat of dictatorial powers in WW1 and then especially WW2 by the West (even if with help from the Soviets) sent a message in the West that claims to dictatorial authority in its realm were dangerous and tenuous, with the powerful country of free America itself being an example of just dissent from such.

But as America and the West followed the example of Israel of God in increasingly casting off the laws of God after victories and blessing, resulting in aversion to both absolute moral and doctrinal beliefs, then having no real power to enforce either and becoming somewhat infected with the same declension, a majority of the chef shepherds of Rome acquiesced to the society it found itself in by making itself more palatable to society.

As society increasingly became intolerant of doctrinal absolutes, and thus while Catholic accommodation (Vatican 2+) was not by explicit rejection of EENS, yet by way of "interpretation," rather than Protestants being labelled as "heretics" who needed to actually be in the "bosom of The Church or otherwise often separated at the sword of men, they were affirmed as being separated brethren in whom the Holy Spirit dwelt and and thru whom He worked.

As society increasingly became intolerant of moral absolutes, and while Catholic accommodation was not by official rejection of moral doctrine, yet it allowed broader interpretation of such (thus the number of annulments in the West took off), and more acceptance of aberrations.

As society increasingly became intolerant of political rule, so Rome forsook her past rejection of freedom of religious belief and embraced it.

And while the modernist accommodation of Vatican 2 was very limited, yet it was not the end, and which gave birth to the current and most liberal politically correct pope of Rome, resulting in more divisions among RCs.

Note however, that accommodation itself is not new, for the church of Rome arose as a distinct mode by increasingly taking upon the governmental form and means of the Roman empire in which it found itself.

Nor is declension in conformity to societal pressure unique to Rome (the modern evangelical moment arose to combat doctrinal and moral revisionism, yet it now is increasingly manifesting its own declension), and the battle of the kingdom of God has always been to be in the world but not of the world.

Moreover, accommodation to societal pressure can sometimes be a correction (as in the case of rejection of theocracies and for freedom of religious belief by civil powers). And thus the real problem is that some of modern accommodation is not wrong for RC distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation. which best shows the NT church understood the OT and gospels).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
Many will contend that the VII teaching on salvation was not a rejection of the narrow EENS (Outside the Church, There is no Salvation) doctrine outlined in Cantate Domino, but such a claim is like saying that a round Earth is not a repudiation of the flat Earth theory. The fact remains that in 1441, the Papal Bull Cantate Domino explicitly stated that pagans, Jews, heretics and schismatics could not go to Heaven, unless they were reconciled with Mother Church prior to death. Then in the 1960's, 500+ years later, Vatican II used the doctrine of "invincible ignorance" to say that it is possible for non-Catholics and non-Christians to obtain salvation, even without becoming a member of the visible Catholic Church. All right, for those of you who say that 500+ years is sufficient for "invincible ignorance" to accrue, what about the Copts and other Oriental Orthodox? They separated from Mother Church in 451 and math tells us that 1441-451 = 990 years or almost double the time from 1441 to the 1960's. Yet, no mention of "invincible ignorance" was given in the Cantate Domino Papal Bull and the Coptic Christians were considered schismatics in 1441. While it makes some sense to contend that 500+ years might be sufficient for "invincible ignorance" to blind schismatics and heretics, if 500 years was enough from 1441 to the 1960's, why not 990 years for the Oriental Orthodox? Sorry, but this line of thought does not add up. Either the Papal Bull of 1441 was not infallible and incorrectly taught salvation or the SSPX is correct and the Vatican II teaching on salvation was not infallible, since the Vatican II Council was supposedly not a doctrinal council. Truth be told, I have never seen a greater contradiction in my entire life, than what exists between the Cantate Domino Papal Bull and the VII teaching on salvation.

Who knows? Maybe the Ultra Traditionalist Catholics are correct? Maybe Father Feeney was right? Maybe all Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and all non-Christians need to become members of Holy Mother Church, if they want to go to Heaven? I doubt it, but such is still a possibility....
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Concord1968
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,772
3,371
✟241,835.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Sorry, but this line of thought does not add up. Either the Papal Bull of 1441 was not infallible and incorrectly taught salvation or the SSPX is correct and the Vatican II teaching on salvation was not infallible, since the Vatican II Council was supposedly not a doctrinal council.

Neither Nostra Aetate nor Gaudium et Spes are dogmatic constitutions, but theologically much of this comes down to the "subsistet in" of the dogmatic constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, 8. Theologians attempting to reconcile your dilemma would probably say that the salvific graces that are given to non-Christians are mediated by the one Church of Christ which "subsists in" the Catholic Church.

That said, I grant that Cantate Domino is a difficult text to reconcile.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,775
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Ah the good 'ol days when the Church's leaders were more concerned about saving souls in Christian Charity than making friends, but I digress.
And also damning souls that were saved, and when "Christian Charity" could mean torturing even witnesses of suspected heretics and exterminating those convicted thereby.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,779.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And also damning souls that were saved, and when "Christian Charity" could mean torturing suspected witnesses of suspected heretics and exterminating those convicted thereby.
please dont derail this thread by posting propaganda.
 
Upvote 0