Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

Dr. Jack said:

1) The English clearly says ...
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

It doesn't say "WAS BEFORE." it says "I am" IN ENGLISH.

It also says ειμι in Greek. Both are present tense, first person, singular, present tense, in the indicitive case. ειμι in Greek, and ""I am" in English are known as state of being verbs.

When you say that Paul MEANT "WAS BEFORE" when he said, "I am" you are changing BOTH the English, and the Greek. If we are going to base our belief on what the Bible says, it says "I am" ... NOT "WAS BEFORE".

If changing the Bible is okay with you ... fine; but not me.

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Another example of present tense in grammar.

Rick could say,


The words "I am a born again Christian" (is present tense) but they refer to his past event of when "he was transformed by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ" (past tense) in one of the previous sentences before.

So Rick is referring to his life experience in the past but he is using the "historical present" in grammar. For have you never heard a person say, "I am a born again Christian" and yet the words "born again" refers to a one time event in the past? In other words, Paul is saying a similar thing here in 1 Timothy 1:15 because the context determines this fact with verses 12-13, and verse 16. If things are as you say, then Paul would use the present tense verbs in verse 13, and in verse 16. Paul would say that I am still a persecutor, and Paul would say that he is still obtaining mercy today, etc. But Paul did not say that.

gradyll said:

sir you disqualify your entire conversation by quoting a secular dictionary on the definition of work. That to me shows that you are willing to go to any extreme to make your point. So it's not worth my time to dialogue with you.
However, to be fair, if you can summarize your post in a few sentences I would love to address all your concerns.

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Oh, and if you were to read my previous post to you before, I do mention how the Bible defines a work, too.
We know that in the instances of a description of good works, they are deeds or in something that you do. God says that we are to "do" or "walk" or "keep" His commandments. This is not always something that is passive because we are commanded to love God and love our neighbor (Which are things we have to do).
Repentance is a command according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30.
God commands us to partake of "repentance."
It is something that we must do.
To do something is a work. Work is something that even the Gentiles do. The Gentiles even do the work of the Law without having the Law according to Romans 2:14. What law could this be? Clearly this is the Moral Law that can include even loving one's neighbor. For if you turn on the news, we see the praise of other men who help their fellow man by acts of kindness. This is to do something.

I mean stop and think for a moment. Even if you think repentance is not a work, you cannot deny that repentance is a commandment because that is what Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says it is. Clearly a command is something that we must do and it is not an option (otherwise it would not be a command). So what is the difference between a good work mentioned in the Bible and the command to repent?

Also, seeing repentance is a command that we must do:
It is an action that we must do as a part of salvation. So you are saying that salvation is in something that we must do. You are saying that salvation is in something that is a part of the Law because it is a commandment. For to repent is a commandment. Commandments are laws. So you are saved by keeping the Law in some way. For even believing in Jesus Christ is a commandment (See 1 John 3:23). Are you not saved by believing in Jesus? If so, then you are saved by keeping this law. You are saved by a Law.

So when Paul condemns the Law and or works, he is not referring to NT Laws that come from Jesus and His followers, but he is referring to Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace via the Torah or the 613 laws given to Israel (i.e. the Old Law).

Bible Highlighter said:

One more time.

Here is the context of 1 Timothy 1:15.

12 "...putting me into the ministry;"
13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, (1 Timothy 1:12-16).​

Verses 12-13 and verse 16 is the context of 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul is clearly referring to his past old life of when he was a sinner in verse 12-13 when he said the words "me...who WAS BEFORE a blasphemer, a persecutor, injurious." Verse 16 says Paul obtained mercy (which is past tense) and not a present declaration. If Paul was declaring that he was still sinning in the present tense by his statement in 1 Timothy 1:15, then why is he talking how he obtained mercy (past tense) in verse 16? Why is Paul referring to how he WAS BEFORE (verse 13) a sinner in the fact that he was a blasphemer, a persecutor, etc.?

So then how can Paul refer to himself as the chief of sinners in the present tense if he is also saying that he had sinned in the past? Is Paul contradicting himself? No. Paul is using the grammar use of "historical present."

In English grammar, the "historical present" is the use of a verb phrase in the present tense to refer to an event that took place in the past.

"Verbs in the 'historic present' describe something that happened in the past. The present tense is used because the facts are listed as a summary, and the present tense provides a sense of urgency. This historic present tense is also found in news bulletins. The announcer may say at the start, 'Fire hits a city center building, the government defends the new minister, and in football City, United lose.'"

Source:
What Is the Historical Present Tense in English and How Is It Used?

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Yes I'm aware of the "historical present tense". Look at your example above: The ENTIRE statement in in present tense.

When historical present tense is used an introduction may be given to preface the narrative such as, "Let me tell you how it happened" ... then the historical present tense begins ... "I am sitting in the back of the bus, the screaming Drill Instructor is all but grabbing at us to get off of the bus, and and stand on the yellow footprints. I'm running as fast as I can, I'm looking for yellow footprints ... but there aren't any here! What do I do? Oh no! He's coing at me, and I have no idea what to do!"

That was an example of historical present tense, of the moment I arrived at Parris Island, SC for Marine Corps Boot Camp. The situation was, in order to show new recruits exactly where to stand to make a "formation", they painted yellow footprints on the asphalt. Unfortunately, there were only 15 rows of 4 (60 sets of footprints), and there were about 72 recruits. Hence, there were no footprints where I was looking.

The thing about historical present tense, is that once the narrative begins, you never use a past tense verb in the narrative ... it ruins it.

So let's use Paul's own words ...

1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

Thus far we have a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present.

1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul now uses 4 past tense verbs (was, obtained, did, and was); followed by a present tense state of being verb (is) with the preposition in, for the prepositional phrase "in Christ Jesus".

This is clearly NOT historical present tense, (you don't use past tense verbs in historical present tense)!

1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

Paul begins the present tense "This is", but by mid sentence, Paul is once again back to using the past tense, "Christ Jesus came", and then, back to the present tense, "I am chief".


Why would the Apostle Paul make such a statement? If you but consider who Paul is, it it rather simple to understand.

Paul, the former Pharisee, who knows the letter of of the law, also knows his own heart. The closer he gets to the Lord, the more he sees his own lack of goodness.

Years ago, I stood at a distance from what appeared to be a beautiful red and white 1965 Ford pickup. As I got closer the owner popped the hood. It looked like an engine for Hot Rod Magazine.

He brought the truck to a shop where I worked as a mechanic. (I was pastoring a small church down south, and worked as a mechanic because the church couldn't afford to pay me a full salary, until I got the church on its feet.) It seemed as though this guy bought this truck, thinking he got a great deal, when in fact, the guy that "assembled" the engine, had no idea what he was doing. Furthermore, while at first glance, from a distance, the truck looked amazing; a closer, more detailed examination revealed it was lousy body work as well.

So what's my point?

From a distance we see only the worst of any sins in people's lives. Yet, when we get up close and personal, we see a lot more. In Paul's case, he had always compared his own life with the lives of other people that were around him; but after getting saved, Paul now compared himself to Jesus Christ.

When we are comparing ourselves with other sinners (and we are all sinners) ...

1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John

... we look pretty good. But when we compare ourselves to Christ ... well, not so much!

The Apostle Paul knew this was even true concerning himself ... not only did he know he was not without sin, he knew he was the chief of sinners.

Dr. Jack said:

Yes I'm aware of the "historical present tense". Look at your example above: The ENTIRE statement in in present tense.

When historical present tense is used an introduction may be given to preface the narrative such as, "Let me tell you how it happened" ... then the historical present tense begins ... "I am sitting in the back of the bus, the screaming Drill Instructor is all but grabbing at us to get off of the bus, and and stand on the yellow footprints. I'm running as fast as I can, I'm looking for yellow footprints ... but there aren't any here! What do I do? Oh no! He's coing at me, and I have no idea what to do!"

That was an example of historical present tense, of the moment I arrived at Parris Island, SC for Marine Corps Boot Camp. The situation was, in order to show new recruits exactly where to stand to make a "formation", they painted yellow footprints on the asphalt. Unfortunately, there were only 15 rows of 4 (60 sets of footprints), and there were about 72 recruits. Hence, there were no footprints where I was looking.

The thing about historical present tense, is that once the narrative begins, you never use a past tense verb in the narrative ... it ruins it.

So let's use Paul's own words ...

1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

Thus far we have a past participle to form perfect tenses ... an action in the past, that continues to the present.

1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul now uses 4 past tense verbs (was, obtained, did, and was); followed by a present tense state of being verb (is) with the preposition in, for the prepositional phrase "in Christ Jesus".

This is clearly NOT historical present tense, (you don't use past tense verbs in historical present tense)!

1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

Paul begins the present tense "This is", but by mid sentence, Paul is once again back to using the past tense, "Christ Jesus came", and then, back to the present tense, "I am chief".


Why would the Apostle Paul make such a statement? If you but consider who Paul is, it it rather simple to understand.

Paul, the former Pharisee, who knows the letter of of the law, also knows his own heart. The closer he gets to the Lord, the more he sees his own lack of goodness.

Years ago, I stood at a distance from what appeared to be a beautiful red and white 1965 Ford pickup. As I got closer the owner popped the hood. It looked like an engine for Hot Rod Magazine.

He brought the truck to a shop where I worked as a mechanic. (I was pastoring a small church down south, and worked as a mechanic because the church couldn't afford to pay me a full salary, until I got the church on its feet.) It seemed as though this guy bought this truck, thinking he got a great deal, when in fact, the guy that "assembled" the engine, had no idea what he was doing. Furthermore, while at first glance, from a distance, the truck looked amazing; a closer, more detailed examination revealed it was lousy body work as well.

So what's my point?

From a distance we see only the worst of any sins in people's lives. Yet, when we get up close and personal, we see a lot more. In Paul's case, he had always compared his own life with the lives of other people that were around him; but after getting saved, Paul now compared himself to Jesus Christ.

When we are comparing ourselves with other sinners (and we are all sinners) ...

1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John

... we look pretty good. But when we compare ourselves to Christ ... well, not so much!

The Apostle Paul knew this was even true concerning himself ... not only did he know he was not without sin, he knew he was the chief of sinners.

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My reply back to you should have been sufficient to show that you are not reading 1 Timothy 1:15 correctly. I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on something that is obvious to someone who can read basic English.

I believe you do not like what 1 Timothy 1:13 says, and so you are attempting to read 1 Timothy 1:15 in a way that ignores the context.

I am moving on because I already made my case on this verse. There is nothing more to say (that I have not already said before).

If you believe you can sin and still be saved by God's grace, there are tons of other verses in the Bible that condemn this kind of thinking (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 13:42-43, Matthew 25:31-46, John 3:20, John 12:48, 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 22:14-15). But you are free to believe as you wish. You may want to risk your soul believing in something that is more comforting that ignores many verses in the Bible, but I will not do that. My soul, and the souls of others is too important to play games with in trying to justify sin in some way on the behalf of GOD and His Kingdom.

Danthemailman said:

I already explained what James means in James 2:19. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Once again, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:17, 20, 26, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims to have faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

I already told you.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims to have faith but has no works (to validate their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

The demons believe with their head that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, but they don't believe with their heart in Jesus as their personal Savior. Big difference! Those who refuse to show love to the poor and produce no works at all have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith and are not a part of the brethren. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I never said he did. James is also NOT saying that we are saved by works.

Only a heart changing kind of faith saves, which the demons do not have. Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart (not just in your head) that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The demons believe that "there is one God" along with believing that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, BUT the demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. *That is the HUGE difference that you seem to miss. I've heard works-salvationists in the past claim that the belief of Christians and demons is the same "except" for the lack of good works and cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why they have so much faith in works for salvation.

Because they are not born again.

Which demonstrates they were not born again either. Those who merely claim to have faith but have no works are not part of the brethren. Those who hate their brother are not born again. 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 3:15 - Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

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Your explication appears to imply that anyone who does not do good works or turns away from Christ were never saved to begin with. But that is not always the case. John 15:1-10 teaches that even believers who are in Christ can be cut off and cast away by God and believers can also turn away from Christ and not remain in Him resulting in condemnation. Here we can see Jesus warning His faithful 11 apostles of the consequences of failing to abide in Him. This is an indication that even those who undoubtedly believe and have accepted Christ can still choose to turn away if they want. All Christians are presented with a choice every second of their life to either serve God or to serve satan. Paul explains this in Romans 6:15-16.

Dr. Jack said:

I wrote this very brief article to address that very point:

License to sin:

It seems as though many believe that those who subscribe to “eternal security”, or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) also subscribe to some idea of having a “license to sin". This entire idea is not only ludicrous, but a complete fabrication made in ignorance of both Scripture, and reality!


Let’s take a moment to consider what a license is:

The primary definition of “license" according to the Merriam Webster 2019 Dictionary is “permission to act”.
Hence, when people say that I as a subscriber to OSAS, say that I subscribe to the idea that I have a “license to sin", they are saying that I subscribe to the idea that because I am eternally secure in Christ, that I also subscribe to the idea that God has given me a “license to sin"! Really?

By that reasoning, any person who “sins" (after getting saved), that doesn’t immediately loose their salvation, must also subscribe to the same idea!

Why is it that I would need a “licence to sin"?

I remember back in 1985 when I was involved in the street ministry at Lighthouse Baptist Church in La Mesa, CA. On Friday nights men of the church would go to a corner in San Diego an preach on the street corner. I didn’t preach (at first); I just dealt one on one with people walking by.

One Friday night however, (about the 3rd or 4th time I went), it seemed that all the “preachers" were busy dealing one on one, and I was the odd man out (so to speak … I think they set me up on purpose). The light turned red, the traffic stopped, the audience was there in place … three minutes of opportunity! I tried to pretend I didn’t notice. But sure enough, good old Skip Crowder, (a short plump sailor) looked me square in the eyes and said, You must preach, we're all busy. I said, I don’t preach! He said, Quote Scripture!

I held up my King James Bible (the way I saw them do it .. waving it in the air, and at the top of my lungs began quoting Scripture. Did I mention I was a Marine Corps Drill Instructor, and had an incredibly loud voice? I think I quoted Scripture through about 4 red lights.

Folks, I had NO LICENSE to preach, I had no idea that God was calling me to preach. But I was preaching! I submit first, that there is not a single person who identifies as a “Christian”, who does not sin. Second, let’s be clear, sin is a transgression of the law …

3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John

Since we know that ALL Christians sin, (no matter what the sin is), we must ask, Do those Christians that do NOT subscribe to “eternal security”, or OSAS also subscribe to having a “license to sin”?

Whether it is a hidden sin that others cannot see, or apparent sin that all can see, SIN IS SIN.

Do I believe that we should as Christians rid our lives of sin by subjecting ourselves to the power of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely!

But do I, or do you, or does ANYONE know

1) that God is not working in the heart of the person, or people we may be judging unjustly;
2) how God is working;
3) what plans God has for those in whom He is working?

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Bless you brother Jack and thank you for your service to both our country and to Our Heavenly Father. Semper Fi all the way!! My father is also a Marine. He is currently stationed in the Kingdom of God.

I’m curious what are your thoughts on the implications of John 15:1-10? Is this not an indication that those who are in Christ can be cut off by The Father or even fail to remain in Christ by their own will or desire? Would this not result in loss of salvation?

Bible Highlighter said:

My reply back to you should have been sufficient to show that you are not reading 1 Timothy 1:15 correctly. I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on something that is obvious to someone who can read basic English.

I believe you do not like what 1 Timothy 1:13 says, and so you are attempting to read 1 Timothy 1:15 in a way that ignores the context.

I am moving on because I already made my case on this verse. There is nothing more to say (that I have not already said before).

If you believe you can sin and still be saved by God's grace, there are tons of other verses in the Bible that condemn this kind of thinking (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 13:42-43, Matthew 25:31-46, John 3:20, John 12:48, 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 22:14-15). But you are free to believe as you wish. You may want to risk your soul believing in something that is more comforting that ignores many verses in the Bible, but I will not do that. My soul, and the souls of others is too important to play games with in trying to justify sin in some way on the behalf of GOD and His Kingdom.

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So you believe you are without sin. According to what the HS had John write, it seems you may have a problem ...

1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John

Dr. Jack said:

So you believe you are without sin. According to what the HS had John write, it seems you may have a problem ...

1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John

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What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,


In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

BNR32FAN said:

Bless you brother Jack and thank you for your service to both our country and to Our Heavenly Father. Semper Fi all the way!! My father is also a Marine. He is currently stationed in the Kingdom of God.

I’m curious what are your thoughts on the implications of John 15:1-10? Is this not an indication that those who are in Christ can be cut off by The Father or even fail to remain in Christ by their own will or desire? Would this not result in loss of salvation?

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Thank you for your kind words, it has been my pleasure to serve. Semper Fi.

You pose a good question, and we must closely follow the text to not allow false presumptions to take over.

Let's begin:

15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. John

We have two points above:
1) Christ is the true vine; and
2) The Father is the one who oversees the vineyard.

15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John

Here we see:
1) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away

Now what is meant by "taketh away"? Does this mean loss of salvation, or is there another meaning?

The first thing I learned in Bible College was, You cannot build Bible doctrine on what the Bible doesn't ACTUALLY say. Hence, Unless a text says I loose my salvation, then I must consider a other meaning.

Let's keep this in mind, but move along.

2) and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

This is very interesting. This tells us that even when we are bearing fruit, there is still a part of "our branch" that is either, A) simply not bearing fruit, and needs to be "purged" (removed); or B) causing us not to bear all the fruit we could be producing, and therefore, again, is still a part of "our branch" that needs "purged" (removed).

This tells me, this entire parable is about action taken by the Father the gain the most "fruit".

15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. John

Again, we have an interesting statement. And now Jesus is going to tell his disciples HOW to get the most fruit. Pay attention!

Step One:
You must be "clean".

3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

The Word of God cleans us. We see further reference to this in chapter 17

17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John

The beginning part of producing fruit for the Father is to allow the Word of God to cleanse us ... Ye are now clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John

4) Abide in me, and I in you.

The word abide means to dwell, even live in a particular place. Christ is telling his disciples to live in Him, or may I say, make Me your life, (if you want to bear much fruit).

5) As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine

We must understand this valuable point. A branch that is not continually drawing from the vine will not produce fruit. Have you ever seen a branch that begins to crack from the trunk of the tree, how it shows signs of death. Unless care is taken to repair that branch, it will wither away.

The point Christ is making here is our constant connection with Him in order to produce fruit.

6) no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jesus parallels the branches need of reliance on the vine to produce fruit, with their need of reliance on Him to produce fruit.

15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John

7) I am the vine, ye are the branches

Jesus makes very clear who is who.

8) He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit

Part one: the simple fact to get fruit is your connection to Jesus. Then He says WHY ...

9) for without me ye can do nothing

Without being in constant contact with Christ you will bear no fruit.

Remember, Jesus just said, Ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you ... this again, is through the Word of God ... the context isn't about staying, or even being saved; it's about staying clean in order to produce fruit.

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John

10) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered

In Proverbs 30 we read ...

30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Proverbs

Let us not skip over an words which show us the meaning of this text.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered

We have looked at what happens when we abide in Christ ... we bear fruit. But what about those who do not abide in Christ, reading His word daily.

He is cast forth as a branch, and is withered.

Branches that abide in the vine enjoy the of the vine, but those who do not enjoy no such life. Bearing fruit brings joy to the life of the Christian, and not bearing fruit leaves the believer with a very dissatisfying life.

The Father casts aside the branches that do not abide with Jesus, not to hell as some suppose, but to a life of uselessusel until the Father deals with them according to Hebrews 12.

12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews

He is cast forth as a branch, and is withered

Notice, the words, "as a branch, and is withered"

The believer's life that is not abiding in Christ does just that, it withers away. Thank God for Hebrews 12 and 13 ...

13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews

11) and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is from these words that many believe that Jesus is saying that the Father will burn them, as men gather and burn useless branches.

I guess it's a good thing we serve God, and not men! For men would in deed throw all the worthless branches in the fire ... But God uses chastisement to get us back into abiding with Him. Did God cast away David when David sinned? No. God is always reaching out for the prodigal son. And by the way, at no time in the parable of the prodigal son did the father stop referring to him as his "son".

15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John

12) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,

The use of the word "if" shows a conditional promise from God. If the believer A) abides in Jesus; and His words abide in them then Jesus says ...

13) ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you

Some people really blow this verse out of context. They think, Oh, that means I can ask God for a new car, a new house ... No, that isn't at all what Jesus is saying.

2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Philippians

By abiding in Jesus, and having His words abide in us, we gain the "mind of God". We begin to think according to how Jesus thinks. The object is "bearing much fruit"; not getting new cars or houses.

Hence, we think along the lines of "how can I reach more souls for Christ"? And THAT is what we ask for, and THAT is what the Father will grant ... wisdom!

1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. James

15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. John

14) Herein is my Father glorified

Jesus now tells the disciples the PURPOSE of this lesson ... to glorify the Father!

15) that ye bear much fruit;

When we "bear much fruit", we glorify the Father. The opposite of course is just as true. In the parable of the prodigal son, the poor actions of son, reflected negatively upon his father, yet, the father still loved, and longed for his son to return to having a proper relationship with him, in his presence. (Abiding in him.)

16) so shall ye be my disciples

A disciples is a follower of his master. Accepting Jesus as Saviour is the beginning of our relationship with the Father. To follow him daily, and allow Him to become your Lord, is a separate level of the relationship.

In the parable of the prodigal son, the younger son wanted his inheritance (as do many believers); but they miss out on the real relationship of the love the Father wants us to learn about. We only learn that through abiding in His Word.

When we alow God to teach us through His word, His love teaches us the value of sharing our faith, and gaining much fruit. It then isn't an issue of doing it to be, or even stay saved ... it's about the joy of truly abiding in God's Word, and love.

15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. John

17) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you:

Jesus now compares the love between Him and the Father as the love He has for us.

18) continue ye in my love

What a command! We are to continue in "His love"

All that has been said up to this point now culminates in the words, "continue ye in my love".

Keep abiding in the vine!

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John

19) If ye keep my commandments

Now is this referring to the 613 OT laws, is it referring to the 10 Commandments; or, could Jesus simply, in the context of what He has taught them in His earthly ministry "keep the commandments that I have taught you about love, and abiding in me, that you may A) glorify the Father, and B) bear much fruit?

20) ye shall abide in my love

Isn't this what Jesus has been teaching all along?

21) even as I have kept my Father's commandments

To sum up the words of Jesus here, may I simply refer to the words of Jesus Himself ...

8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. John

What would happen if all Christians pursued this one objective?


22) and abide in his love.

Jesus says, I am your example. I abide in the Father's love, Now I want you to abide in OUR love. When we abide in love, we bear much fruit.


This entire lesson to Jesus' disciples was not to scare them into obedience; it was to encourage them into the joy of depending completely on Him, through abiding in Him.

Bible Highlighter said:

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

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So, once again, you are telling me that you now live a life of sinless perfection?

Dr. Jack said:

So, once again, you are telling me that you now live a life of sinless perfection?

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Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).


Examples of Grievous Sin:


Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).


Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:



Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter said:

Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).​

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).
​

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

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You know "Bible Highlighter", you have now taken the turn of dividing bad sins, and not so bad sins. What you fail to understand is that "unbelief" is the ONLY sin that Jesus Himself directly linked to condemnation. Now you can believe ANYTHING you want to ... but to even suggest in any way, shape, or form, that God thinks as you think ... probably not a very good idea.

Yes, you have repeatedly shown me your "perspective"; but you have proven absolutely nothing ... except of course that you think that no Greek speaking, reading, and or writing person really knows anything about Greek ... even if it is their native tongue.

Dr. Jack said:

Thank you for your kind words, it has been my pleasure to serve. Semper Fi.


You pose a good question, and we must closely follow the text to not allow false presumptions to take over.


Let's begin:

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Thank you brother Jack that was a very beautiful interpretation. I appreciate you taking the time to give a very comprehensive verse by verse explanation. I rarely see a verse by verse explanation of John 15 when I ask people about their interpretation. There are a few things tho that I would kindly like to point out. The first thing would be in reference to the term “taketh away” (aírō G142) in verse 2. The Greek word aírō, when used in reference to something that is attached to something else, means to remove. Here’s the Strong’s Concordance definition.


1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish


2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear


3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease


I would think that in this case this would be the appropriate definition since the branch is attached to the vine, not simply based on the definition itself, but I believe there are other implications in this message that would support this particular definition. The term taketh away doesn’t make much sense to me if The Father’s intention is to chastise these individuals in order to bring them back to repentance so that they will bear fruit. Taking them away from Christ while they are being punished doesn’t make sense since they cannot bear fruit unless they are attached to the vine which is Christ. Taking them away would render them incapable of bearing fruit.


What I see in Jesus’ tone in this message are implications that even His faithful 11 apostles were capable of failing to abide in Him. The Greek word ménō (G3306) translated to “abide or remain” not only means to dwell but also can mean to stay, remain, or continue. To me since this message is pertaining primarily to those who are in Christ I believe the object of the message is to remain or continue to dwell in Christ. The examples given here are of those who are in Christ. I believe that we all have choices to make every second of our life. We can either choose to serve God or we can choose to serve satan at any given time. Furthermore I believe the scriptures have several indications that God has expectations of His children and failure to comply results in loss of salvation.


For now I will try to confine my explanation to John 15 so as to not make this post too long. I think it’s easier to address matters individually rather than presenting a whole slew of examples that can get lost in the discussion.


In verses 4 and 5 Jesus makes some pretty interesting implications. He starts out by telling His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him. We can infer that they are already abiding in Him at this time as Jesus states in verse 19 and His prayer to The Father just a short time later this same evening that “they are not of this world” in John 17:16. So this is an indication that what Jesus means by “abiding” in Him does not necessarily mean to dwell in Him but instead to remain or continue to dwell in Him.


Next He says to them “the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”

John 15:4 NASB


This implication indicates a possibility of them being capable of failing to abide in Him as does verse 5.


“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”

John 15:5 NASB


You said in your explanation that part of our branch may not bear fruit. That’s not exactly what is stated here. Jesus never makes any reference to parts of a branch. His only references are pertaining to branches as a whole. His message is to bear fruit. So if part of the branch is bearing fruit then the branch is bearing fruit. When He says that branches are not bearing fruit that means the branch as a whole has produced no fruit at all.


Now verse 6 has some really strong evidence and the definition of the original Greek word bállō, translated to cast, strengthens my point here that this must refer to a loss of salvation and not merely a temporal punishment.


bállō (G906)


Description:

1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert


Grammar:

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω.


The definition implies that this casting away is not merely a temporal punishment but a total disregard to one’s wellbeing.


Jesus says in verse 6 “anyone who does not abide in Me”. The word “anyone” does not exclude even His 11 faithful apostles. Only by a preconceived notion can one infer that this cannot imply that believers can be cast away by The Father for failure to abide in Christ. Since this message is primarily directed towards believers who are in Christ this is a strong indication that believers can choose to turn away from their faith or to a false profession of faith thus resulting in being cast away to wither & burn. If a person is not remaining or continuing in Christ then Christ will not remain in them and He will deny such a person before The Father. I think that you might agree that faith is not a mere confession of believing but more so a way of life.


Next verse 7 also has a strong indication that even Jesus’ faithful 11 we’re capable of failing to abide. Notice He begins by saying “If you abide in Me”. This implies that there is no guarantee of certainty that they will abide in Him otherwise verses 4 & 5 and verse 7 are referring to a situation that would be an impossibility. Then these verses that are explaining an impossible scenario and become irrelevant and useless.


I’ll skip to verse 10 because I think we can both agree on the implications of verses 8 & 9.


“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”

John 15:10 NASB


Verse 10 is a conditional statement indicating that God does have expectations of His children. He demands results otherwise He will disown us. Before I provide other scriptures to support this statement let’s get to the question what are His expectations. What does God expect from His children? I believe Jesus answered this question when He was asked what is the greatest commandment. He replied


“And He said to him, " ' YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ' YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."”

Matthew 22:37-40 NASB


Jesus reveals His expectation in John 15:12.


“"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.”

John 15:12 NASB


Love is at the very root of bearing fruit or doing good works because love is the very root of Christ. In almost everything Jesus taught at the very core was love. Take for example Matthew 25:31-46. What were the goats lacking that condemned them?


“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'”

Matthew 25:41-43 NASB


Notice all of these examples are the result of love and compassion. It wasn’t the lack of faith or lack of believing or even lack of works themselves but the lack of love that resulted in a lack of works or fruit. James 2:14-17 gives a similar example.


“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.”

James 2:14-17 NASB


Many believe that we are saved by faith alone. Paul said something interesting in 1 Cor 13:2


“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”

1 Corinthians 13:2 NASB


I think the problem is that many misunderstand what justification is. They confuse justification with salvation. We are justified by faith before we have done any good works. The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Just because we have been made right with God does not mean that we cannot be made wrong with Him afterwards. Notice Paul’s words to the saints who are faithful to Christ in Ephesus in Ephesians 4.


“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity.”

Ephesians 4:25-27 NASB


Here I would like to inject Romans 6:15-16 because I think this makes a very valid point on this subject.


“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”

Romans 6:15-16 NASB


Paul said this to believers who are saved indicating that even believers who are saved are capable of serving satan resulting in death if they don’t repent. Let’s continue Ephesians 4 and on into chapter 5 and continue Paul’s message to the saints who are faithful to Christ in Ephesus.


“He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”

Ephesians 4:28-32 NASB


Paul continues to emphasize the importance of refraining from sin and expressing love towards others. Even tho we are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption we are still capable of grieving the Holy Spirit. Now this next portion in chapter 5 is very interesting. Notice that he begins with the word “Therefore” indicating that he is reiterating on what he had previously said in chapter 4.


“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

Ephesians 5:1-6 NASB


This message is a clear indication that even children of God can become sons of disobedience thus losing their inheritance in the kingdom of God if they do not repent.


I apologize that this became longer than I originally intended. There is much more I would like to say on this subject but I don’t want to include too many points at one time. I feel I may have already done so. I will address some of your examples in another post. Have a blessed day.

Dr. Jack said:

Thank you for your kind words, it has been my pleasure to serve. Semper Fi.

You pose a good question, and we must closely follow the text to not allow false presumptions to take over.

Let's begin:

15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. John

We have two points above:
1) Christ is the true vine; and
2) The Father is the one who oversees the vineyard.

15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John

Here we see:
1) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away

Now what is meant by "taketh away"? Does this mean loss of salvation, or is there another meaning?

The first thing I learned in Bible College was, You cannot build Bible doctrine on what the Bible doesn't ACTUALLY say. Hence, Unless a text says I loose my salvation, then I must consider a other meaning.

Let's keep this in mind, but move along.

2) and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

This is very interesting. This tells us that even when we are bearing fruit, there is still a part of "our branch" that is either, A) simply not bearing fruit, and needs to be "purged" (removed); or B) causing us not to bear all the fruit we could be producing, and therefore, again, is still a part of "our branch" that needs "purged" (removed).

This tells me, this entire parable is about action taken by the Father the gain the most "fruit".

15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. John

Again, we have an interesting statement. And now Jesus is going to tell his disciples HOW to get the most fruit. Pay attention!

Step One:
You must be "clean".

3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

The Word of God cleans us. We see further reference to this in chapter 17

17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John

The beginning part of producing fruit for the Father is to allow the Word of God to cleanse us ... Ye are now clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John

4) Abide in me, and I in you.

The word abide means to dwell, even live in a particular place. Christ is telling his disciples to live in Him, or may I say, make Me your life, (if you want to bear much fruit).

5) As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine

We must understand this valuable point. A branch that is not continually drawing from the vine will not produce fruit. Have you ever seen a branch that begins to crack from the trunk of the tree, how it shows signs of death. Unless care is taken to repair that branch, it will wither away.

The point Christ is making here is our constant connection with Him in order to produce fruit.

6) no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jesus parallels the branches need of reliance on the vine to produce fruit, with their need of reliance on Him to produce fruit.

15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John

7) I am the vine, ye are the branches

Jesus makes very clear who is who.

8) He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit

Part one: the simple fact to get fruit is your connection to Jesus. Then He says WHY ...

9) for without me ye can do nothing

Without being in constant contact with Christ you will bear no fruit.

Remember, Jesus just said, Ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you ... this again, is through the Word of God ... the context isn't about staying, or even being saved; it's about staying clean in order to produce fruit.

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John

10) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered

In Proverbs 30 we read ...

30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Proverbs

Let us not skip over an words which show us the meaning of this text.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered

We have looked at what happens when we abide in Christ ... we bear fruit. But what about those who do not abide in Christ, reading His word daily.

He is cast forth as a branch, and is withered.

Branches that abide in the vine enjoy the of the vine, but those who do not enjoy no such life. Bearing fruit brings joy to the life of the Christian, and not bearing fruit leaves the believer with a very dissatisfying life.

The Father casts aside the branches that do not abide with Jesus, not to hell as some suppose, but to a life of uselessusel until the Father deals with them according to Hebrews 12.

12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews

He is cast forth as a branch, and is withered

Notice, the words, "as a branch, and is withered"

The believer's life that is not abiding in Christ does just that, it withers away. Thank God for Hebrews 12 and 13 ...

13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews

11) and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is from these words that many believe that Jesus is saying that the Father will burn them, as men gather and burn useless branches.

I guess it's a good thing we serve God, and not men! For men would in deed throw all the worthless branches in the fire ... But God uses chastisement to get us back into abiding with Him. Did God cast away David when David sinned? No. God is always reaching out for the prodigal son. And by the way, at no time in the parable of the prodigal son did the father stop referring to him as his "son".

15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John

12) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,

The use of the word "if" shows a conditional promise from God. If the believer A) abides in Jesus; and His words abide in them then Jesus says ...

13) ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you

Some people really blow this verse out of context. They think, Oh, that means I can ask God for a new car, a new house ... No, that isn't at all what Jesus is saying.

2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Philippians

By abiding in Jesus, and having His words abide in us, we gain the "mind of God". We begin to think according to how Jesus thinks. The object is "bearing much fruit"; not getting new cars or houses.

Hence, we think along the lines of "how can I reach more souls for Christ"? And THAT is what we ask for, and THAT is what the Father will grant ... wisdom!

1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. James

15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. John

14) Herein is my Father glorified

Jesus now tells the disciples the PURPOSE of this lesson ... to glorify the Father!

15) that ye bear much fruit;

When we "bear much fruit", we glorify the Father. The opposite of course is just as true. In the parable of the prodigal son, the poor actions of son, reflected negatively upon his father, yet, the father still loved, and longed for his son to return to having a proper relationship with him, in his presence. (Abiding in him.)

16) so shall ye be my disciples

A disciples is a follower of his master. Accepting Jesus as Saviour is the beginning of our relationship with the Father. To follow him daily, and allow Him to become your Lord, is a separate level of the relationship.

In the parable of the prodigal son, the younger son wanted his inheritance (as do many believers); but they miss out on the real relationship of the love the Father wants us to learn about. We only learn that through abiding in His Word.

When we alow God to teach us through His word, His love teaches us the value of sharing our faith, and gaining much fruit. It then isn't an issue of doing it to be, or even stay saved ... it's about the joy of truly abiding in God's Word, and love.

15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. John

17) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you:

Jesus now compares the love between Him and the Father as the love He has for us.

18) continue ye in my love

What a command! We are to continue in "His love"

All that has been said up to this point now culminates in the words, "continue ye in my love".

Keep abiding in the vine!

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John

19) If ye keep my commandments

Now is this referring to the 613 OT laws, is it referring to the 10 Commandments; or, could Jesus simply, in the context of what He has taught them in His earthly ministry "keep the commandments that I have taught you about love, and abiding in me, that you may A) glorify the Father, and B) bear much fruit?

20) ye shall abide in my love

Isn't this what Jesus has been teaching all along?

21) even as I have kept my Father's commandments

To sum up the words of Jesus here, may I simply refer to the words of Jesus Himself ...

8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. John

What would happen if all Christians pursued this one objective?


22) and abide in his love.

Jesus says, I am your example. I abide in the Father's love, Now I want you to abide in OUR love. When we abide in love, we bear much fruit.


This entire lesson to Jesus' disciples was not to scare them into obedience; it was to encourage them into the joy of depending completely on Him, through abiding in Him.

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You mentioned how David had sinned and that God did not turn Gis back on him. I agree that is true but then David confessed and repented immediately upon hearing the charges brought against him. God will do the same for any believer. As for the prodigal son however, the son went astray and the father did not stop him but instead waited patiently for the son to repent. Anyone who doesn’t remain in Christ will also be received with open arms if they repent.

BNR32FAN said:

You mentioned how David had sinned and that God did not turn Gis back on him. I agree that is true but then David confessed and repented immediately upon hearing the charges brought against him. God will do the same for any believer.

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I recall some churches actually sing Psalms 51, especially the part that goes "Take not thy holy spirit away from me", and shaking my head.

David was fearful that his salvation was at stake after Nathan confronted him. But he saw in the future how blessed would a future group of believers be, that is us, Paul said it in Romans 4

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Our covenant with God, under the grace dispensation, was much more secure and powerful than the one David had under the Law dispensation.

Because of Jesus's shed blood, even when we sin, God will not impute sin to our account (Romans 5:13)

gradyll said:

But there are salvific "works" and "works" that should flow from a saved life,

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While being born again does affect the believer, that does not mean they do not have free will and they will always endure, etc.

We are told:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

These statements in Scripture would be nonsensical if things are as you say.

gradyll said:

And if they are works that save us, then this would contradict romans 6:4 directly, and the rest of romans six.

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Okay. One more time. First, I do not believe we are saved by "Works Alone." I believe we are saved by "Justification + Sanctification." Both are works of God. So if you refer to my belief, please refer to how the "Justification + Sanctification" as my viewpoint instead of falsely claiming that I believe I am saved by works (Which implies I believe salvation is Works Alone-ism, which is not the case).

Second, Romans 6:4 does not contradict how we are saved by "Justification + Sanctification." Being buried with him by baptism into death is the Justification Process. This happens when we first accept the Lord Jesus. Sanctification is the next part of the verse. It says, "even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4). Notice how it says we should walk in newness? Should. Should walk. The word "should" is not a guarantee. Rick should do his homework instead of wasting time on social media networks. Bob should get some sleep before he goes to work, otherwise he will not function properly. Martha the cat should poop in the litterbox otherwise her owners will be upset. Should. It's not a guarantee.