2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

ewq1938

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I believe Jesus did what He said He came to do, which was fulfill the law.

I believe that also. The old law was fulfilled and done away with so a new one could replace it. That has been the only law in existence since the cross.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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parousia70 said:
Not believers in general, but the actual 1st century Thessalonian congregation.
That is the FACE VALUE rendering of the passage.
Any attempt to REMOVE them from direct application of the passage, as you appear to be doing, is you applying an interpretation to the text that the text itself does not teach.
The Hope of Relief Paul is encouraging the Thessalonians to have is Key to understanding the timing...

Jesus came and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the coming of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:5-7)

Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

Ask yourself:
Are the 1st century Thessalonians STILL suffering persecution at the Hands of the 1st century Jews?

If not, then the only option is that Christ’s coming happened and ended their persecution. There is no other scriptural option.
I agree, but I find it interesting you say this, but then immediately elongate and elasticize the text to not only include others beyond the 1st century Thessalonians whom Paul was directly addressing, but in fact your stated interpretation EXCLUDES them from ANY application of the passage at all.

Such is untenable.
How many Christians were in Jerusalem during the siege of 70 AD, to admire his coming in the passage below?
They had either escaped, been taken captive or killed.
What did Jesus tell His followers to do?


The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!


Matthew 24:16
then those in
the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Mark 13:14
Then those in the Judea
, let them be fleeing into the mountains

Luke 21:21
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing
into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country;
and those in the countries placed, let them not come be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written 23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.
=========================
Pella: A Window on Survival

In the article “Church of the Apostles Found on Mt. Zion”, Bargil Pixner writes “The Judeo-Christian community in Jerusalem escaped this terrible catastrophe by fleeing to Pella in Transjordan and the countryside of Gilean and Bashan in expectation of the Parousia, the second coming of Christ.

When this did not occur and they realized that the time of Jesus’ return was not yet at hand, they decided to go back to Jerusalem to rebuild their sanctuary on the site of the ancient Upper Room—where the Last Supper had been held, where the apostles returned after witnessing Jesus’ ascension on the Mount of Olives and where Peter delivered his Pentecost sermon as recorded in Acts 2. It was this site on which they made their synagogue. They were free to do this because they enjoyed a certain religious freedom from the Romans (religio licita) inasmuch as they were Jews who confessed Jesus as their Messiah, and not gentile converts.”

Read “Church of the Apostles Found on Mt. Zion” as it appeared in Biblical Archaeology Review, May/June 1990.
==========================
130) 66 A.D. - The Christians Flee the Wrath To Come

But, at that time in 66 A.D., inside of Jerusalem's walls, was a population of Christians that wanted no part of war or violence for any reason. And they had been divinely warned to leave the city, because it would be destroyed - and they would be destroyed with it if they stayed.

So, when the Jews sallied out and over the horizon to catch the retreating Romans, there was their golden chance - their window of opportunity. The more patriotic and militant men among their Jewish countrymen were gone, chasing the enemy. And no one in the countryside would hold them back because there really wasn't anyone in the countryside. Everyone was hiding within whichever walled city they thought was closest and safest.

The Christians left out the gates of Jerusalem and to the north, around 50 miles, then they crossed eastward toward the Jordan River and across it, and then to the city of Pella where they took refuge for quite a time. It was about a 70 mile trip by the trails they likely used (according to maps I found of their suspected flight path, which are probably only estimates.
Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Daniel 11:33
And ones being intelligent<7919> of people they shall cause to understand to many-ones,
and they stumble<3782> in sword and in blaze<3852>, in captivity<7628> and in plunder days<3117>
[Sword and captive/captivity are mentioned together in only 2 verses of the NT:]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
=====================
 
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mkgal1

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I believe Jesus did what He said He came to do, which was fulfill the law.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17


There is no mention of “feasts” in His statement.

You have interject that word and implied Jesus didn’t do what He so plainly said He Himself came to do, which was fulfill the law.



Pkease explain why you don’t believe Jesus fulfilled the law?




JLB
I believe Christ Jesus fulfilled ALL the law and the words of the prophets, but I'm not sure if you even know what that means (considering your comment about the feasts).
 
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JLB777

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I believe Christ Jesus fulfilled ALL the law and the words of the prophets, but I'm not sure if you even know what that means (considering your comment about the feasts).


What comment about the feasts are you referring to?


Please copy and paste my comment about the feasts, you are referring to, with the post number.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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I believe Christ Jesus fulfilled ALL the law

Great, then you understand the requirement for the law to be abolished has been met.


Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


  • one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Till all has been fulfilled.

This took place on the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances



JLB
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Great, then you understand the requirement for the law to be abolished has been met.
  • one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Till all has been fulfilled.
This took place on the cross.
JLB
The preaching of the Good News up to the Cross was fulfilled, but not the day/s of vengeance shown in Isai 61:2

Do the Jews of today realize that when their Messiah finally shows up, so also does vengeance and wrath come after their Messiah preaches the OT to them?
This was fulfilled in 70AD.............

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled<pleroo 4137> in your hearing.”

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

What does ALL THING WRITTEN mean in this passage of Luke? I believe this was fulfilled in 70AD

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<pletho 4130> ALL the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

1 Thessalonians 2:
15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted<1559> us, and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Revelation 19:2 “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great Harlot who corrupted the earth with Her fornication;
and He has avenged<1556> on Her the blood of His servants shed by Her.”

===========================
David Harold Chilton was an American reformed pastor, Christian reconstructionist, speaker, and author of several books on economics, eschatology and Christian Worldview from Placerville, California. He contributed three books on eschatology: Paradise Restored, The Days of Vengeance, and The Great Tribulation. Wikipedia

Is the Book "Days of Vengeance" Good For Catholics?

Michael Barber is the Professor of Theology, Scripture and Catholic Thought at John Paul the Great Catholic University. He has his Ph.D. in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. His dissertation was on the Historical Jesus and Sacramental Eschatology under the world famous scholar, Colin Brown. He has an M.A. in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville and received his B.A. in Theology and Philosophy from Azusa Pacific University. He is the author of several books, including, Coming Soon: Unlocking the Book of Revelation and Applying Its Lessons Today (Emmaus Road, 2006) and Genesis to Jesus: Studying Scripture from the Heart of the Church (Servant, 2007), a Bible study co-authored with Kimberly Hahn. He is a Research Fellow for the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, founded by Scott Hahn. Barber is also the host of Reasons for Faith Live a radio show heard nationwide each Friday at 11am PCT on EWTN’s Radio Network.


Reformed Online

Covenanted Reformed Presbyterian Church is a congregation of the Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States. We believe that the Bible, God's holy and infallible word, is the only rule of faith and life.
Days of vengeance...........Olivet Discourse

============================
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Partial Preterism:
Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies
, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Great, then you understand the requirement for the law to be abolished has been met.


Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


  • one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Till all has been fulfilled.

This took place on the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances



JLB

You're conflating two different words to mean the same thing.

Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish

with:

Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
Definition: to make full, to complete

He already said that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets and that it wouldn't be completed until heaven and earth passed away.

And besides that, what was abolished in his flesh? The "enmity", that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Whatever was in the law that caused enmity. ie: circumcision.
The verses you quoted is about bringing Jew and Gentile together, not about fulfilling the law, but it does fulfill "some prophecies. Here's one of many.
Isaiah 49:6 Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

So, do I believe Christ has fulfilled the law and the prophets? Yes, but not at the cross. But that's a subject for another space.
 
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mkgal1

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Great, then you understand the requirement for the law to be abolished has been met.


Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


  • one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Till all has been fulfilled.

This took place on the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances



JLB

The phrase "till heaven and earth pass away" refers to the duration of the whole Old Covenant's authority. If the Old Covenant authority ended at the cross - then how did events like the stoning of Stephen occur (3.5 years after the cross)? Clearly there was still authority there.

The concrete Hebrew meaning of peace is: "to destroy that authority attached to chaos." When you destroy what is bringing chaos, you will have peace. Christ is "our" peace, that of Jews and Gentiles, because He destroyed what brought chaos between Jews and Gentiles, which in this context is the Mosaic Law, but that didn't happen at the cross. Just reading the New Testament, we can see that. Look at Acts 21 - the Old Covenant still had authority over Paul at that time (30 years after the cross).

**I'm posting from my phone - so it's difficult to articulate this well right now.
 
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JLB777

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He already said that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets and that it wouldn't be completed until heaven and earth passed aw

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


  • till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.



Heaven and earth would pass away before one jot and tittle passed from the law, until it was time to be fulfilled.


Jesus fulfilled what He came to do on the cross, so therefore the was fulfilled.


Therefore the law has been abolished.


JLB
 
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mkgal1

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one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

Jesus fulfilled what He came to do on the cross, so therefore the was fulfilled.


Therefore the law has been abolished.
In our day, yes, the Law has been fulfilled. However - as I posted earlier - when Paul was siezed and arrested as recorded in Acts 21 (around 60 A.D.) the Law was a tool used to persecute (and murder) the early Christ followers (and they were hoping for a rest soon from that - and got that relief in the complete destruction of that authority in 70 A.D.).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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In our day, yes, the Law has been fulfilled. However - as I posted earlier - when Paul was siezed and arrested as recorded in Acts 21 (around 60 A.D.) the Law was a tool used to persecute (and murder) the early Christ followers (and they were hoping for a rest soon from that - and got that relief in the complete destruction of that authority in 70 A.D.).
Indeed migal. Excellent post.

It got so bad that our bro Paul had to appeal to Caesar. [Acts 25]
[Unlike our Lord Jesus]
Those wicked Jews and the City/Temple received their due recompense in 70AD as shown in Revelation 6:16 and Revelation 18.........Praise the LORD! AMEN

John 19:15 Those yet cry-out "take-away! take-away! crucify! Him".
Pilate Is saying to them "the King of ye I shall be crucifying?".
Answered the Chief-priests "not we are having a King except Caesar

I appeal to Caesar! Acts 25:11
LLoJ Mar 29, 2010
Fulfill prophecy
Mk. 13:9 "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to {the} courts, and you will be flogged in {the} synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
Pr. 22:29 Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument [fn] of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
YLT)Acts 22:
22And they were hearing him unto this word, and they lifted up their voice, saying, ‘Away from the earth with such an one; for it is not fit for him to live.’
23And they crying out and casting up their garments, and throwing dust into the air,
24the chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, saying, ‘By scourges let him be examined;’ that he might know for what cause they were crying so against him.
25And as he was stretching him with the thongs, Paul said unto the centurion who was standing by, ‘A man, a Roman, uncondemned — is it lawful to you to scourge;’
26and the centurion having heard, having gone near to the chief captain, told, saying, ‘Take heed what thou art about to do, for this man is a Roman;’
27and the chief captain having come near, said to him, ‘Tell me, art thou a Roman?’ and he said, ‘Yes;’
28and the chief captain answered, ‘I, with a great sum, did obtain this citizenship;’ but Paul said, ‘But I have been even born [so].’

29Immediately, therefore, they departed from him who are about to examine him, and the chief captain also was afraid, having learned that he is a Roman, and because he had bound him,
30and on the morrow, intending to know the certainty wherefore he is accused by the Jews, he did loose him from the bonds, and commanded the chief priests and all their sanhedrim to come, and having brought down Paul, he set [him] before them

Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die. But if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them.
I appeal unto Caesar.
===========================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Revelation 6:16
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” [Hosea 10:8 Luke 23:30]
=============================
Meyer's NT Commentary
Acts 25:11. From his preceding declaration that he must be judged before the imperial tribunal, and not by Jews, Paul now reasons (οὖν, as the correct reading instead of γάρ, see the critical remarks) that he accordingly by no means refuses to die, if, namely, he is in the wrong; but in the opposite case, etc.
In other words: “Accordingly, I submit myself to the penalty of the Roman law, if I am guilty; but if,” etc. And, in order to be sure of the protection of Roman law, amidst the inclination of Festus to please the Jews, he immediately adds the appeal to the Emperor.

εἰ … ἀδικῶ] If I am at fault. See Krüger, Index. Xen. Anab.; Jacobitz, ad Luc. Tim. 25, p. 25 f.; Heind. ad Plat. Protag. § 4, p. 463 f. The idea of the word presupposes the having done wrong (Kühner, ad Xen. Anab. i. 5. 12), therefore the added καὶ ἄξιον θαν. πέπρ. contains a more precise definition of ἀδικῶ, and that according to the degree.

οὐ παραιτοῦμαι κ.τ.λ.] non deprecor. Comp. Joseph. Vit. 29; Herod. i. 24 : ψυχὴν δὲ παραιτεόμενον. Lys. adv. Sim. § Acts 4 : ἀξιῶ δὲ … εἰ μὲν ἀδικῷ, μηδεμιο͂ς συγγνώμης τυγχάνειν.

τὸ ἀποθανεῖν] “id ipsum agi, notat articulus,” Bengel. Comp. Buttmann, neut. Gr. p. 226[E. T. 262].

εἰ δὲ οὐδέν ἐστιν ὧν] but if there exists nothing of that, of which they, etc. ὧν is by attraction for τούτων ἅ. Comp. Acts 24:8; Luke 23:14.

δύναται] namely, according to the possibility conditioned by the subsisting legal relations.

αὐτοῖς χαρίσασθαι] to surrender me to them out of complaisance. See on Acts 3:14.

Καίσαρα ἐπικαλ.] I appeal to the Emperor. See examples from Plutarch of ἐπικαλ. in Wetstein; also Plut. Graech. 16; in Dem. and others: ἐφιέναι. Certainly the revelation, Acts 23:11, contributed to Paul’s embracing this privilege of his citizenship (see Grotius in loc.; Krebs, de provocat. Pauli ad Caes. in his Opusc. p. 143 ff.). “Non vitae suae, quam ecclesiae consulens,” Augustine accordingly says, Ephesians 2.
=============================
Expositor's Greek Testament
Acts 25:11. εἰ μὲν γὰρ, see critical note, “if then (οὗν) I am a wrongdoer,” referring to his standing before Cæsar’s judgment-seat, and not to the ἠδίκησα in Acts 25:10.—ἀδικεῖν: only here absolutely in N.T.; the verb occurs five times in Acts, once in Luke’s Gospel, and once in St. Matthew, but not elsewhere in the Gospels (Friedrich, p. 23).—ἄξιον θαν., i.e., according to Roman law.—οὐ παραιτοῦμαι τὸ ἀποθανεῖν: non recuso, Vulgate, so Blass; the verb is only used here in Acts, but it occurs three times in St. Luke’s Gospel, three times in Hebrews, once in Mark 15:6, W.H[392]—

In the present passage, and in 1 Timothy 4:7; 1 Timothy 5:11, 2 Timothy 2:23, Titus 3:10, Hebrews 12:25 (twice), the word is rendered “refuse,” R.V. text; but in Luke 14:18-19, the word is rendered “to make excuse”; “excused”: Jos., Ant., vii., 8, 2; but in each case the Greek verb literally means “to beg off from,” and the Latin deprecor might well express the verb both here and in Luke 14, l.c., cf. Esther 4:8 in the sense of supplicating, and for the sense as above 2Ma 2:31, 3Ma 6:27; see also Grimm sub v. for different shades of meaning.

In Jos., Vita, 29, we have the phrase θανεῖνοὐ παραιτοῦμαι: upon which Krenkel insists as an instance of dependence upon Josephus, but not only is the phrase here somewhat different verbally, οὐ παραι. τὸ ἀποθ., the article expressing more emphatically, as Bengel says, id ipsum agi; but cf. the instances quoted by Wetstein of the use of similar phrases in Greek, and of the Latin deprecor, e.g., Dion. Hal., A.V., 29. τὸν μὲγ οὖν θάνατον … οὐ παραιτοῦμαι.

See further Introd., p. 31.—χαρίσασθαι: “to grant me by favour,” R.V. margin, cf. Acts 3:14, Acts 25:16, Acts 27:24 (Philemon 1:22), only in Luke and Paul in N.T.; see on its importance as marking the “We” section, Acts 27:24, and other parts of Acts, Zeller, Acts, ii., 318, E.T.
Paul must have known what this “giving up” to the Jews would involve.—Καίσαρα ἐπικ.: Appello: provoco ad Cæsarem: “Si apud acta quis appellaverit, satis erit si dicat: Appello.” Digest., xlix., 1, 2, except in the case of notorious robbers and agitators whose guilt was clear, ibid., 16.
But we must distinguish between an appeal against a sentence already pronounced, and a claim at the commencement of a process that the whole matter should be referred to the emperor.

It would appear from this passage, cf. Acts 27:21; Acts 27:26; Acts 27:32, that Roman citizens charged with capital offences could make this kind of appeal, for the whole narrative is based upon the fact that Paul had not yet been tried, and that he was to be kept for a thorough inquiry by the emperor, and to be brought to Rome for this purpose, cf. Pliny, Epist., x., 97, quoted by Schürer, Alford, and others, and similar instances in Renan, Saint Paul, p. 543, Schürer, Jewish People, div. 1., vol. ii., p. 59, and div. ii., vol. ii., p. 278, E.T., and also “Appeal,” Hastings’ B.D., and below, p. 514.—

This step of St. Paul’s was very natural. During his imprisonment under Felix he had hoped against hope that he might have been released, but although the character of Festus might have given him a more reasonable anticipation of justice, he had seen enough of the procurator to detect the vacillation which led him also to curry favour with the Jews.

From some points of view his position under Festus was more dangerous than under Felix: if he accepted the suggestion that he should go up to Jerusalem and be tried before the Sanhedrim, he could not doubt that his judges would find him guilty; if he declined, and Festus became the judge, there was still the manifest danger that the better judgment of the magistrate would be warped by the selfishness of the politician. Moreover, he may well have thought that at a distant court, where there might be difficulty in collecting evidence against him, he would fare better in spite of the danger and expense of the appeal.

But whilst we may thus base St. Paul’s action upon probable human motives, his own keen and long desire to see Rome, Acts 19:21, and his Lord’s promise of the fulfilment of that desire, Acts 23:11, could not have been without influence upon his decision, although other motives need not be altogether excluded, as St. Chrysostom, Ewald, Neander and Meyer (see Nösgen, 435). It has been maintained that there was every reason to suppose that St. Paul would have obtained his acquittal at the hands of the Roman authorities, especially after Agrippa’s declaration of his innocence, Acts 26:32.

But St. Paul’s appeal had been already made before Agrippa had heard him, and he may well have come to the conclusion that the best he could hope for from Festus was a further period of imprisonment, whilst his release would only expose him to the bitter and relentless animosity of the Jews.

Two years of enforced imprisonment had been patiently borne, and the Apostle would be eager (can we doubt it?) to bear further witness before Gentiles and kings of his belief in Jesus as the Christ, and of repentance and faith towards God.

[392] Westcott and Hort’s The New Testament in Greek: Critical Text and Notes.
 
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JLB777

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In our day, yes, the Law has been fulfilled. However - as I posted earlier - when Paul was siezed and arrested as recorded in Acts 21 (around 60 A.D.) the Law was a tool used to persecute (and murder) the early Christ followers (and they were hoping for a rest soon from that - and got that relief in the complete destruction of that authority in 70 A.D.).

I will have to disagree a little.

Judaism the religion was used to falsely accuse and murder Jesus Christ, as well as His followers.

God gave the children of Israel the law.

Judaism is a man made antichrist religion that is a mixture of the traditions of man and the law.


Judaism today rejects Jesus as the Messiah and claims He is a false prophet.



JLB
 
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ewq1938

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The phrase "till heaven and earth pass away" refers to the duration of the whole Old Covenant's authority. If the Old Covenant authority ended at the cross - then how did events like the stoning of Stephen occur (3.5 years after the cross)? Clearly there was still authority there.

Not authority from God. Those men were murders who were misguided thinking they were doing God's work but they weren't. The old Cov. was fully gone at the cross and did not exist past it except in the minds of the misguided.


Look at Acts 21 - the Old Covenant still had authority over Paul at that time (30 years after the cross).

Paul was pressured by a mob to do certain things. He did not practice Judaism nor it's customs and when he did, it was forced upon him at least in one main situation. He also said he would be a Jew to win Jews to Christ, and do the same to win others but that isn't the same as thinking the Old Covenant was still in effect because it wasn't and Paul is clear it wasn't.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Messenger 3k said:
Mkgal, you're wrong.
LloJ, your posts are unnecessarily long.
JLB, you're right. The law was fulfilled on the cross. It's that simple.
Then Ed,
You showed good understanding up to this point and halfway, then confused yourself at the end.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

You're declaring that heaven and earth passed away at the cross. Do you not realize that?

And please tell us how Christ fulfilled all of the feasts of Leviticus 23 at the cross. Leviticus 23 KJV Mkgal1 has a fine post on the atonement--ask her for it.
Good catch Ed. I would also say the destruction of 70AD Jerusalem clinched it.

I brought up that very verse on my "heaven and earth" thread..

Views on the New Heaven and Earth in Revelation 21:1

A few more NT Scriptures:
Why is the "Law" included in Matt and Luk?

Mat 5:18
“For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Mar 13:31
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Luk 16:17
“And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 21:33
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
 
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ewq1938

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Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

You're declaring that heaven and earth passed away at the cross.


He's correct because the law couldn't change unless that happened and the law did change at the cross. Christ wasn't saying the literal Earth and Heaven would disappear. He was talking of Earth and Heaven ages...certain periods of time end and begin and an age ended at the cross. The new age is known as the church age or the new covenant age.
 
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mkgal1

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Thanks for redirecting and changing the tone of the discussion Ed.

I think we may even have to back up further and begin with defining what the "Law and the Prophets" even means. It's not a list of instructions (I'm just pointing that out for those that don't seem to understand the meaning). All of the illustrations in the Old Covenant sacrificial system focus on and find their fulfillment in Him. All of the prophecies given regarding the coming Messiah, His kingdom, and His salvation find their fulfillment in Him. To stop at the cross is to miss His full glory and power that He displayed.

In reference to this: "abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances," one commentator writes, "Do you know that to prove the abolishment was final in A.D.70. God allowed the Romans to come down and the Romans literally wiped out ancient Judaism. They abolished the Temple, destroyed the whole thing and there has never been a sacrificial system in Judaism since that time to this day, never. It was wiped out. It was done. It was gone".
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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mkgal1 said:
The establishment of the heavens and the earth is thus linked directly to the establishment of Israel as God’s people at Mount Sinai
Hello mkgal.
What are you're and others view of that "burning mountain" in Reve 8:8?

If one views 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18 [as I and a lot of Christians do] then that would symbolically be OC Mt Sinai as described in Galat 4 and Hebrew 12?

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Mountain of fire cast into Sea

Galatians 4:24 which things is an allegory. For these are the two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating who-any is Hagar. 25 For the Hagar mount Sinai is in Arabia is together-elemental yet to now Jerusalem slaving/serving with the offspring of Her.

Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to [*a mountain] that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm, 19 the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,
Deu 4:11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness
Exodus 19:16 And it cometh to pass........ on the Mount,and the sound of a trumpet very strong; and all the people who are in the camp do tremble
==========================
Symbolic OC Mount Sinai?

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger trumpets, and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,

=======================
Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.
===========================
The Sound Of The Trumpet

The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.
=========================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

You can hear the Roman army trumpets in this vid at about the 2:40 min mark.....

 
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Ed Parenteau

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Josephus describing the temple as heaven and earth as the Jews would have seen it in those days.

7. Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe. When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, (15) and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire. Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest's shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? That it was also illustrated with a crown, and that of gold also, is because of that splendor with which God is pleased. Let this explication (16) suffice at present, since the course of my narration will often, and on many occasions, afford me the opportunity of enlarging upon the virtue of our legislator.
 
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ewq1938

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Josephus describing the temple as heaven and earth as the Jews would have seen it in those days.

Definitely not the way Christ used "Heaven and Earth". In Mathew 24, he spoke of the temple as the temple and mentioned that it all would be dismantled. He didn't ever compare the temple to the Universe or the Earth.

Again, he was clear that no part of the law could be changed until Heaven and Earth passed and the law changed at the cross and post cross writings in scripture attest that the law not only changed but was actually fully replaced so whatever "Heaven and Earth" passing means, it took place the day Christ died else the law could not have been nailed to the cross and a new law and new covenant be in it's place.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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Definitely not the way Christ used "Heaven and Earth". In Mathew 24, he spoke of the temple as the temple and mentioned that it all would be dismantled. He didn't ever compare the temple to the Universe or the Earth.

Again, he was clear that no part of the law could be changed until Heaven and Earth passed and the law changed at the cross and post cross writings in scripture attest that the law not only changed but was actually fully replaced so whatever "Heaven and Earth" passing means, it took place the day Christ died else the law could not have been nailed to the cross and a new law and new covenant be in it's place.
Keep in mind that Jacob and his family were called the sun moon and stars by Joseph and Jacob acknowledge that. Also, Moses addressed Israel heavens and earth.
 
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