Why is God hidden, invisible, unprovable?

Yahkov

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The "gleaming structure" you took from my "gleaming obelisk" could just as well have been written as God flying across the sky every generation with his Heavenly angels for all to see for the purpose of my meaning that unless people of each ancient generation actually experienced physical proof of God they were quick to become skeptical. In this modern era such does not apply because once a certain supernatural event beyond our science occurs, it will forever be recorded going forward. The advantage of the gleaming obelisk is once placed, God would not need to keep performing regularly for we mortals through millennia. If he thought some might begin worshiping the structure itself, he could have a booming voice recording state not to, a command by God. Simple solution but of course as was the purpose of this thread God apparently does not want us to know with certainty and that is why his resurrection is perfect because it is far from certain requiring considerable faith.

I am confident God has revealed Himself in much better way than whatever idea you may think of. Everyone is without an excuse. God's plan obviously wasn't a gleaming obelisk. It is His Word, of which will never fall away. Jesus is brighter than a gleaming obelisk and lives forever more.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." - Matthew 24:35

If God's Word isn't enough for someone to believe, nothing is. The physical proof of God is all around us yet people still say God is unprovable.

The answer to your question has already been answered. God chooses to remain invisible to us because we wouldn't be able to see God and live to tell. And the premise that God is unprovable is false. Scripture is in clear disagreement that God is unprovable. So now it's just a matter of whether you agree with the Bible or not.
 
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aiki

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A few have answered with familiar Christian responses but none of those things provides certain evidence that atheist science and the secular world will do more than grant such is at least possible.

The thing is, atheists tend to hold theists to a higher standard of certainty than they hold themselves. The matter of science itself is a good example. There are several unprovable assumptions upon which science rests:

- Science assumes our physical senses are reliable and give us accurate information about a mind-independent physical world.
- Science assumes the mind is rational and that the universe is rational in such a way that the mind can know it.
- Science assumes uniformity of nature to justify induction (i.e., science must assume that one can legitimately infer from the past to the future and from examined cases to unexamined ones of the same kind).
- Science assumes the laws of logic are true.
- Science assumes that numbers exist.
- Science assumes that language has meaning and that some terms refer to things in the world.
- Science assumes truth exists and involves some sort of correspondence between theories and the world.
(excerpted from "Scaling the Secular City," by J.P. Moreland. pg. 198)

There are a good number more assumptions that science makes besides these I've listed here. Science, then, is not as certain and as evidentially-concrete as it often is portrayed to be. It has its own set of brute givens, unprovable assumptions, upon which it rests, but you never hear scientists/atheists fussing and fuming about them, demanding of science absolute proof of the many assumptions upon which it is founded.

In other words, the fact God supposedly performed an obvious miracle in the ancient Bible text or subsequently in the pre-modern area will in this modern era have little impact as viewed from skeptical those that don't believe and that is a primary point of my introductory post.

You might want to consider Craig Keener's two-volume set on miracles entitled, "Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts," which deal, not just with the miracles of the New Testament but with extra-biblical miracles, too, assessing them critically and carefully. Keener gives very solid arguments for the rationality and evidence of miracles - even, and perhaps particularly, to the skeptic. Skepticism is not always the most rational position to take toward miracles, especially in the face of solid evidence that they have actually occurred.

In fact that is why it is key for we Christians to go beyond what we ourselves believe and or lean towards and address what the secular world challenges us to explain.

But should we abandon our religious/philosophical presuppositions in order to do so? The atheist doesn't do this. He maintains a rigid allegiance to some form of naturalism/materialism/humanism/scientism as he assesses what is true and real. Why can't the Christian do the same with his own religious/philosophical presuppositions? Must he abandon his religious perspective and argue under the atheist's naturalistic presuppositions? I don't think so.

The Bible tells me that it is God who gives a person repentance to the acknowledging of the truth (2 Timothy 2:25). No philosophical argument, no empirical evidence, can replace the work of God in a lost person's heart, drawing them to Christ (John 6:44), imparting to them faith to believe (Romans 12:3), and convicting them of their sin (John 16:8) and need of a Saviour. The lost need to meet with God, not just with arguments about Him, they need to come under His saving work if they are going to be truly converted. The key, then, to helping an atheist come to a saving faith in Christ is not rational argument and solid empirical evidence (as important as these things are) but prayer and the Gospel which is "the power of God unto salvation." (Romans 1:16)
 
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Davidz777

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...If God's Word isn't enough for someone to believe, nothing is.

I've read that kind of response before but reality is there is a whole secular agnostic and atheistic world out there that does not believe that shows you are simply so rigid that you will deny the obvious as though that might help your position. Of course when those like this person read something like that it is like trying to tell Flat Earthers they are wrong. Regardless of what one might say they remain like a bulldog with a bone. And that results in ignoring them as further discussion would be foolish.

... And the premise that God is unprovable is false. Scripture is in clear disagreement that God is unprovable. So now it's just a matter of whether you agree with the Bible or not.

As shown in my opening post I reject inerrancy and infallibility. Although many like you will plead that God is provable and point to scripture, whatever arguments are offered has not affected non-belief of the secular world enough to change their beliefs. The notion we ought be pushing arguments that God is totally provable by itself versus also requiring some faith is obviously misplaced by reflecting on God's own scripture. Instead one ought be content to relate that there is considerable evidence that God probably exists without demanding such to be so certain everyone should believe while also stating where one stands personally.
 
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Yahkov

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I've read that kind of response before but reality is there is a whole secular agnostic and atheistic world out there that does not believe that shows you are simply so rigid that you will deny the obvious as though that might help your position. Of course when those like this person read something like that it is like trying to tell Flat Earthers they are wrong. Regardless of what one might say they remain like a bulldog with a bone. And that results in ignoring them as further discussion would be foolish.



As shown in my opening post I reject inerrancy and infallibility. Although many like you will plead that God is provable and point to scripture, whatever arguments are offered has not affected non-belief of the secular world enough to change their beliefs. The notion we ought be pushing arguments that God is totally provable by itself versus also requiring some faith is obviously misplaced by reflecting on God's own scripture. Instead one ought be content to relate that there is considerable evidence that God probably exists without demanding such to be so certain everyone should believe while also stating where one stands personally.

The agnostic and the atheist want to argue on their grounds. I'll stand rooted in the Bible. My God tells me His Word is what convinces. My God tells me His Word is where faith comes from. It doesn't matter what you think about the Bible, I will not nor should any Christian out there meet you at your level and argue on your terms. Did Jesus do so with the Pharisees? No.

Just because we live by faith in things not seen does not mean we live by faith in things not perceived. This is what you are so vitally missing. It's one thing to believe in God. That's not so much the issue. It's another thing to trust in God. You said God wants people to have uncertainty, He wants skeptics, and He wants doubt. That could not be any further from the truth. You created your own god in your head that's not God of the Bible. This thread is what you get when you don't come to terms with the inerrancy of God's Word: a counterfeit view on God and a presented idea of what YOU would have done better than what God has done.

You don't want a Biblical response like an agnostic or atheist, just like the skeptic. I hope you realize that Christ is that gleaming obelisk and I hope you realize the "inerrant" Word of God is what does not disintegrate with time. And blessed are those who believe yet have not seen. Yet this isn't enough for you so you yourself are living proof that a gleaming obelisk will be no better. Your idea is a bad idea, to put it bluntly. You literally prove yourself wrong on this one.

Again, your question was answered already. Now you either accept the answer from the Bible or you don't. Stop trying to drag Christians down to the level of a foolish man. A foolish man says in his heart that there is no God. Thousands of religions sprouted up from all over the world all throughout history. Why? Because they all saw the obvious, that there is a God.
 
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Davidz777

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A recent poll showed only 39% of US Christians shared your view. Of course many are Catholics. Of course even fewer Christian scholars share that rigid view especially beyond public light. But that is off topic so will let it lie at relating your input is very controversial even among Christians.

5 facts on how Americans view the Bible and other religious texts

Christians, who make up a majority of U.S. adults (71%), are divided over how to interpret the Bible. While about four-in-ten Christians (39%) say the Bible’s text is the word of God and should be taken literally, 36% say it should not be interpreted literally or express another or no opinion. A separate 18% of Christians view the Bible as a book written by men, not God.
 
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Yahkov

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A recent poll showed only 39% of US Christians shared your view. Of course many are Catholics. Of course even fewer Christian scholars share that rigid view especially beyond public light. But that is off topic so will let it lie at relating your input is very controversial even among Christians.

5 facts on how Americans view the Bible and other religious texts

Christians, who make up a majority of U.S. adults (71%), are divided over how to interpret the Bible. While about four-in-ten Christians (39%) say the Bible’s text is the word of God and should be taken literally, 36% say it should not be interpreted literally or express another or no opinion. A separate 18% of Christians view the Bible as a book written by men, not God.

For the last time, your question was answered. I don't care what polls say. You are on a Christian forum website, you asked your question, you got a Biblical answer. For the third time now, you either believe the Bible or you don't. Why point out seculars, agnostics, atheists as people who don't accept a Biblical answer...I mean, duh? This is a Christian website. Not a place full of seculars, agnostics, and atheists. You're going to get Biblical answers. It's another "duh".

Might I also add that you posted this thread under Controversial Christian Theology. I don't use polls to come to theological conclusions. If you can't accept a Biblical answer, you mostly won't be successful in this category with others.

If the Bible's answer isn't enough for you there's nothing that I can do. People like you, "Christians" who stir up this kind of nonsense (literally), are the reason why the poll you shared is no surprise. I already knew I would be a minority, my God and His Word has already told me so. I don't need you or a poll to point it out.

And why do you keep referring to my view as rigid? You have your mind made up as well. Maybe you should try examining yourself. Difference between us and our arguments, I put all my hope and trust into the God and His Word. No, I will not bend on that. You are not willingly to bend either, so maybe try looking into a mirror. You created a thread with a question but you didn't want our answers, you wanted us to have yours. With that being said...

Your answer to the question you presented yourself is wrong. The verses you shared no where near answers what you are saying and most of them you have severely taken out of context. I imagine you don't struggle with reading comprehension so perhaps we can take a look at them.

Matthew 11:25-27 is about teachings, not whether God is real or proof of God. Those whom Jesus is talking about that God is hiding these things from were the Pharisees and scribes. They obviously believed God is real.

Colossians 1:15 proves your entire view is wrong and you're the one who shared it in your first post! You claimed in one of your posts that God remains unrevealed. You want to try and re read this verse and say that again? Perhaps the Gospels ring a bell? Jesus is among many other ways God has revealed Himself throughout the Bible, throughout history.

Matthew 12:38-39, once again this is not an issue of people asking for proof that there is a God. They already believed in God. They were asking for proof that Jesus is God. Big difference.

John 5:37, and yet again another verse that addresses people who already believe in God.

To top all of this off, you are calling for a gleaming obelisk. You defeated your own view in your own posts. You got the sign of Jonah.
 
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Davidz777

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A thread OP has more responsibility in threads. Your last post reads like an emotional rant from frustration. You deserve a response every time you try and impose the last word from your perspective. I as the OP, was fine letting the thread alone as I related way back at post #112, however you keep pushing inputs that lack balance. I'm fine at this point and you should be too. Many discussions end with both sides making their points, pointing out areas of disagreement, and letting go.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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I guess you haven't heard of the Kalam Cosmological Argument, or the Argument from Contingency, or the Moral Argument, or the Teleological Arguments, and so on. There are all sorts of great arguments for God's existence.

Atheistic resistance to theism has, at bottom, nothing to do with "scientific evidence" but with the selfish, prideful, rebellious human heart.



Sure I can. His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child. He convicts me of sin, strengthens me in times of temptation and trial, comforts me in sorrow and sickness, illuminates my mind to His truth, and transforms my character and desires in conformity to His own.



The wind is also invisible, so is integrity, and love, and peace. Can you boil courage in a test tube, or weigh honesty on a scale? Invisibility does not necessitate non-existence.



I once accidently pounded my thumb with a hammer. It hurt like blazes! My thumb turned black and blue and the nail fell off. I can tell you with great certainty this happened. Can I prove to you that it did? Can I take you back in time to show you the moment when I smashed my thumb with a hammer? No. Does this mean the event didn't happen and my certainty is unwarranted? Of course not.



He did create a universe. And He took on flesh and dwelt among us for thirty-three years. God has not been sneaking around, trying to obscure Himself from us as much as possible.



In context, this verse isn't about God hiding Himself, but about obscuring prophecy from the "wise and learned" and revealing it instead to "little children." Jesus goes on to say:

Matthew 11:27
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.


So, God reveals himself to those whom the Son has chosen for such revelation. He is not hiding away from everyone.



This is speaking of Christ who is "the image of the invisible God," which is to say, God in the flesh, a God we can see and touch, who is not invisible, hidden away from human eyes.



But here again, we aren't reading that God hides from everyone, keeping Himself a perennial unknown, but that Jesus would not do tricks for the doubting, adulterous, and evil Pharisees.



But humans have seen the Father in the Son.

John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

To say that atheists are only taking the stance they take is because they have a selfish, prideful and deceitful human heart is a little harsh and really kinda rude since your assumption is ridiculous. It seems we are all off in some areas since we all don’t seem to have all the answers(even if some of us act like we do). It would do us good to be honest and sincere in our conversations. Doesn’t mean you or I have to deny our beliefs. We can keep our beliefs without putting people down who challenge those beliefs by asking questions. It’s very acceptable for a person to answer a question by saying clearly they don’t know the answer. That is sincere. That is honest. I would hope even an atheist would be able to reflect that a personal belief is personal. It doesn’t have to make sense to everyone else. But respect and love can be shown regardless of belief each person holds.
 
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aiki

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To say that atheists are only taking the stance they take is because they have a selfish, prideful and deceitful human heart is a little harsh and really kinda rude since your assumption is ridiculous.

No, it's exactly what the Bible says about all who are lost. Read John 3:19-20, Jeremiah 17:9, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 1:21, Psalms 14:1, Psalms 53:1.

It seems we are all off in some areas since we all don’t seem to have all the answers(even if some of us act like we do).

Well, how is your criticism of me not essentially the same as my criticism of the atheist that you are condemning? How are you not guilty of the very same thing of which you are accusing me? It looks to me like you are doing to me what you say I ought not to do to the atheist.

It would do us good to be honest and sincere in our conversations.

I always am. How about you?

We can keep our beliefs without putting people down who challenge those beliefs by asking questions.

Have you dealt much with atheists? I have. Quite a lot. I am not merely putting down atheists but pointing out the core reason for their objections to God which both the Bible and the atheists with whom I have debated have acknowledged.

It’s very acceptable for a person to answer a question by saying clearly they don’t know the answer. That is sincere. That is honest.

Uh huh.

I would hope even an atheist would be able to reflect that a personal belief is personal. It doesn’t have to make sense to everyone else. But respect and love can be shown regardless of belief each person holds.

I guess you haven't had much interaction with atheists.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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No, it's exactly what the Bible says about all who are lost. Read John 3:19-20, Jeremiah 17:9, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 1:21, Psalms 14:1, Psalms 53:1.



Well, how is your criticism of me not essentially the same as my criticism of the atheist that you are condemning? How are you not guilty of the very same thing of which you are accusing me? It looks to me like you are doing to me what you say I ought not to do to the atheist.



I always am. How about you?



Have you dealt much with atheists? I have. Quite a lot. I am not merely putting down atheists but pointing out the core reason for their objections to God which both the Bible and the atheists with whom I have debated have acknowledged.



Uh huh.



I guess you haven't had much interaction with atheists.

no it is not the same thing. I put us all included myself in the same boat as having things to learn and acknowledging none of us knows it all. You said atheists have deceitful hearts. I know first hand that isn’t true. Contrary to what you may think I have spent time talking to atheists. Some of them are simply unwilling to accept evidence enough to convince them its the truth. Some are willing to step out more then others when they don’t have the full picture and some are not. Maybe you have never met an atheists who you believe didn’t have a deceitful heart I am saying I have. Either way it’s fine. I was just pointing out your comment is wrong about atheists having deceitful hearts. If you disagree and in fact believe they all do that is your choice. Have a good day
 
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Hawkins

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That no one in modern times has been able to provide certain physical proof of god or even spiritual existences looking back through human history, is the strongest scientific evidence for atheistic resistance to belief in any god.

I think that you may need view this in a rather "reversed" way. If it's a truth that the Christian God exists, then how can this truth be conveyed among humans?

Similarly, if it's true that God is that "invisible", then in what way He can get in touch with humans?
 
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Hawkins

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Why might God choose to be unrevealed, un-manifested, invisible, hidden? If God and his actions were revealed out in the open public, all people, I reiterate ALL sane people, would believe he existed just like today there is no doubt the world is a round planet.

The point that's not what God wanted.

Your intangible assumption made here is that earth is God's sole purpose however it's not. Heaven is one of the ultimate goals of God. The effort is for humans to live with God in eternity. Thus there's a process to qualify or identify humans for them to be brought to that eternity. That's why Law/Covenants and etc. are established. They are cored on 2 basically characteristics concerning the behavior of humans and how possible they are to live an eternity with an so-called sin-incompatible God. First is obedience, second is obedience without understanding (due to the fact that human intelligence is relatively low, that's actually why your question in OP), which is faith.

Thus the Law/covenants are about an assessment of your obedience and faith. That's why it is said that as specified in our New Covenant, humans in majority need to be saved by faith. As a result, if God made Himself evident, it only means that humans as a whole are not savable by faith!

On the other hand if God is completely not accessible, then humans have no way to know the existence of God and His covenants set forth for humans. The only way which works is by the employment of the most powerful and fundamental way of how a truth being conveyed among humans. This way is the process of human witnessing. Satan is trying hard to sidetrack you to fool you into thinking that humans have to rely on evidence to confirm a truth, yet they don't!

Think about this, 200 years ago humans rely heavily on newspapers to get to all the facts surrounding the world. Well a newspaper is just a piece of paper with some writings on it. How come humans can get to all kinds of facts through this piece of small paper? Where are the evidence? Evidence has nothing to do with and have no bearing on this phenomenon. It's the power of human witnessing which works. it says that you don't need any evidence. You just need to sit at home comfortably, reading the writings on a small piece of paper, then you will be able to get to all the facts you need. That's it!

By the same token, God made use of His chosen eyewitness (His prophets) and for them to write the small piece of newspaper for His truth to flow among humans. That's what it is.
 
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bling

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I will speculate, the dilemma for God is he wants communication with us, he wants to guide us beyond our behavioral limitations, while remaining uncertain to us without physical certainty. Thus as Halbhh noted, we must have what is referred to as faith. Today though we are flawed with original sin, God may be revealing himself in subtle invisible uncertain ways to those who seek him, pray to him, love him through faith alone, and are obedient to his will as presented in The Bible and especially through his son Jesus Christ.

So God is likely to want we beings that have a mind, intelligence, learning, and conscience to do things from our own free will within our innate nature and not as a consequence of external coercion and fears. Again, if coerced by fears with certainty even many with innate tendencies to be sinful, evil, and criminal would also believe and be obedient.

From the perspective of evolution for the sake of having meaning to those that believe such, one might speculate if descendants of unbelievers who actually saw God or his signs in certainty, if left alone to mere faith, would return to their innate negative natures. Conversely over generations people who believe by faith alone if evolution has effects, will tend to have descendants that have more positive behaviors as a result of their innate nature. In this way, God whose essence is love, sees a future when we fulfill his vision of what we at the pinnacle of creation on his beloved planet, can become. In other words, for we humans to evolve to what God wants us to become he must filter out those of us with those negative sinful tendencies using the same evolutionary process of physically evolved DNA and brain changes that from the secular perspective was used to get us to this point. And such may be deeply dependent on complexities of our minds that are otherwise impossible to change quickly even by a god given limitations.

That God works in such ways, one might consider Abraham's son's Ishmael and Hagar an indication he was seeking positive traits in humans and rewarding such with special favor that might rise over generations through natural human procreative processes...processes one might argue are Gods.
David, I am sorry for joining you late but will try to address your question.



I have over the years gotten into many long discussions with atheists and agnostics and here is what I have found:

The atheist and agnostics I have discussed this with usually have a moral issue with the Christian God and do not defend the science behind the non-existence of a God, since there really is none.

I usually start with by asking them questions like:

If the Christian God as presented in scripture really did make Himself unquestionably known to you:

1. What changes would you make in your life?

2. If you are not going to change, would it not be better for you to not know God existed?

3. Would it make you happy, sad, depressed, angry, apathetic toward Him or what?

4. The lowliest mature adult person on earth can “believe” in a benevolent Creator, so it is a humbling activity, but being gifted with knowledge is not necessarily humbling, so if humility is needed to humbly accept God’s charity, how is knowledge helping with your humility?

5. Do you want to be loved for the way people perceive you to be or in spite of the way you truly are?

6. God is offering you unconditional totally unselfish Love, but it is a transaction and so you have to humbly accept that Love as pure sacrificial charity (the way it is given) to receive it, but that also means you become like God Himself (Loving Him and others with sacrificial unconditional and unselfish Love), so do you want to become like the Christian God Himself?

Most atheists and agnostics really do not like the Christian God, so it is a blessing for them to not know God exists. God certainly is not looking for people to just acknowledge His existence and not change.

Knowledge has its own problems since it tends to puff the person up who has worked to gain knowledge, while having faith in a benevolent Creator is something the lowliest person on earth can do so it is a humbling activity, so does man need more humility or more pride?

As far as “proofing” God exists you can’t, but you can show it is more likely intelligence existed prior to man. To say man was not made with at least the help of intelligence is to say: energy, matter, time and space alone created intelligence (humans). Since something does not come from pure nothing, something has always existed, so for those who do not believe in the existence of God that something at most is: energy, matter, time and space, yet these can produce intelligence, but is there a limit on how large that intelligence can grow to? Man, with the help of computers, appears to have unlimited possibility and could reach super intelligence and even now man with the help of computers seems close to creating separate intelligence. We all agree it would be easier for super intelligence in space and time with energy and matter to create intelligence than it would be for just matter, energy, space and time working alone to create intelligence. So, if there is an infinite amount of time before man came on the scene, what is the likely hood of man being so luck as to be the first intelligence? If super intelligence came into existence half way back in time, that is still an infinite amount of time back, so is this super intelligence’s existence more likely than not?

The atheist and agnostic do not like to get into scientific discussions, since they have a moral issue with God and it really takes more faith to believe we are the first intelligence.
 
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Shema_Ysrael

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God invisible? Then who was Jesus, Jesus is God and was not invisible.

Yes, the manifested God in the flesh is visible to the naked eye. The "Emanuel" or the Lord Jesus Christ. But God in his natural state or form is invisible.

Now to the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
I Timothy 1:17 NKJV
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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David, I am sorry for joining you late but will try to address your question.



I have over the years gotten into many long discussions with atheists and agnostics and here is what I have found:

The atheist and agnostics I have discussed this with usually have a moral issue with the Christian God and do not defend the science behind the non-existence of a God, since there really is none.

I usually start with by asking them questions like:

If the Christian God as presented in scripture really did make Himself unquestionably known to you:

1. What changes would you make in your life?

2. If you are not going to change, would it not be better for you to not know God existed?

3. Would it make you happy, sad, depressed, angry, apathetic toward Him or what?

4. The lowliest mature adult person on earth can “believe” in a benevolent Creator, so it is a humbling activity, but being gifted with knowledge is not necessarily humbling, so if humility is needed to humbly accept God’s charity, how is knowledge helping with your humility?

5. Do you want to be loved for the way people perceive you to be or in spite of the way you truly are?

6. God is offering you unconditional totally unselfish Love, but it is a transaction and so you have to humbly accept that Love as pure sacrificial charity (the way it is given) to receive it, but that also means you become like God Himself (Loving Him and others with sacrificial unconditional and unselfish Love), so do you want to become like the Christian God Himself?

Most atheists and agnostics really do not like the Christian God, so it is a blessing for them to not know God exists. God certainly is not looking for people to just acknowledge His existence and not change.

Knowledge has its own problems since it tends to puff the person up who has worked to gain knowledge, while having faith in a benevolent Creator is something the lowliest person on earth can do so it is a humbling activity, so does man need more humility or more pride?

As far as “proofing” God exists you can’t, but you can show it is more likely intelligence existed prior to man. To say man was not made with at least the help of intelligence is to say: energy, matter, time and space alone created intelligence (humans). Since something does not come from pure nothing, something has always existed, so for those who do not believe in the existence of God that something at most is: energy, matter, time and space, yet these can produce intelligence, but is there a limit on how large that intelligence can grow to? Man, with the help of computers, appears to have unlimited possibility and could reach super intelligence and even now man with the help of computers seems close to creating separate intelligence. We all agree it would be easier for super intelligence in space and time with energy and matter to create intelligence than it would be for just matter, energy, space and time working alone to create intelligence. So, if there is an infinite amount of time before man came on the scene, what is the likely hood of man being so luck as to be the first intelligence? If super intelligence came into existence half way back in time, that is still an infinite amount of time back, so is this super intelligence’s existence more likely than not?

The atheist and agnostic do not like to get into scientific discussions, since they have a moral issue with God and it really takes more faith to believe we are the first intelligence.

you just said you can’t prove God exists. Isn’t that the problem to the atheists and agnostics? They are unwilling to take a stance on that to which they do not know? I could be wrong, if so please correct me nicely hopefully lol
 
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bling

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you just said you can’t prove God exists. Isn’t that the problem to the atheists and agnostics? They are unwilling to take a stance on that to which they do not know? I could be wrong, if so please correct me nicely hopefully lol
I cannot "proof" God's existence to the skeptic, but I personally know He exists and His Spirit dwells within me. The bigger problem to overcome is the fact the skeptic does not want the Christian God to exist. If you can get the skeptic to the point he wants to really be Loved unconditionally and not just be "loved" for the way he wants other to perceive him to be and he also wants to Love others unselfishly unconditionally, and sacrificially, than you have a chance he/she will trust in the existence of the Christian God. For them to want this Love they have to experience it from you and thus want to be like you. You do not do this in large group settings, but more one on one.
They do tend to say: "It is not that I belief God does not exist, I just do not belief anything I cannot proof", but the bottom line is: they act like God does not exist and that is the way they want to behave. If they wanted to change their behavior they might consider God.
 
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aiki

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no it is not the same thing. I put us all included myself in the same boat as having things to learn and acknowledging none of us knows it all.

This has no bearing at all upon the fact that you were being critical of me, calling me rude, and harsh, and guilty of making ridiculous remarks. I think your words to me were rude and harsh. How, then, are you not acting in the very same way toward me that you were accusing me of acting toward atheists? Pot calling the kettle black, I think.

You said atheists have deceitful hearts. I know first hand that isn’t true.

As I showed you from Scripture, this is what GOD says about all who are lost. Is God just being rude and lying? No.

Contrary to what you may think I have spent time talking to atheists.

So have I. A great deal of time, actually, over the years.

Some of them are simply unwilling to accept evidence enough to convince them its the truth.

And this is, at bottom, because they are in rebellion toward God, caught in the grip of the World, the Flesh and the devil, as Paul explained in Ephesians 2:1-3. This is not being rude, this is being biblical.

Maybe you have never met an atheists who you believe didn’t have a deceitful heart I am saying I have.

It's not merely what I believe, but what God says is the truth. Every lost person is operating under enormous self-deception and the lies of the devil. It is why it takes divine intervention to bring anyone to a saving faith in Christ and why, even in the face of all the excellent arguments and evidence for God that one may offer, the vast majority of atheists I've encountered refuse to be convinced. They carry on as though the arguments and evidence are flawed, unconvincing, but the reality is that they are as God in His word says they are: lost, blind, deaf, bound in sin and Satan's power.

I was just pointing out your comment is wrong about atheists having deceitful hearts.

No, it's not.

If you disagree and in fact believe they all do that is your choice. Have a good day

It is my choice to believe what God says about all lost people, yes.

You have a good day, too.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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I cannot "proof" God's existence to the skeptic, but I personally know He exists and His Spirit dwells within me. The bigger problem to overcome is the fact the skeptic does not want the Christian God to exist. If you can get the skeptic to the point he wants to really be Loved unconditionally and not just be "loved" for the way he wants other to perceive him to be and he also wants to Love others unselfishly unconditionally, and sacrificially, than you have a chance he/she will trust in the existence of the Christian God. For them to want this Love they have to experience it from you and thus want to be like you. You do not do this in large group settings, but more one on one.
They do tend to say: "It is not that I belief God does not exist, I just do not belief anything I cannot proof", but the bottom line is: they act like God does not exist and that is the way they want to behave. If they wanted to change their behavior they might consider God.
I guess I’m just not as hard on skeptics as most. And I do understand do to your experience you may think that the skeptic doesn’t want the Christian God to exist. I’m sure others have had the same experience where they go back and forth so much and come to the conclusion they don’t wanna change. But I actually do understand the skeptic. I understand why it could be difficult for someone who just isn’t willing to put the level of trust in what you or I may believe. However I do believe that they may be willing if we were talking to them about what we know rather then what we believe. But the truth is that our beliefs are personal and aren’t based off certainty so I’m not understanding why we can see why that could be problematic for some. Either way I’m here for discussions. Thanks
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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This has no bearing at all upon the fact that you were being critical of me, calling me rude, and harsh, and guilty of making ridiculous remarks. I think your words to me were rude and harsh. How, then, are you not acting in the very same way toward me that you were accusing me of acting toward atheists? Pot calling the kettle black, I think.



As I showed you from Scripture, this is what GOD says about all who are lost. Is God just being rude and lying? No.



So have I. A great deal of time, actually, over the years.



And this is, at bottom, because they are in rebellion toward God, caught in the grip of the World, the Flesh and the devil, as Paul explained in Ephesians 2:1-3. This is not being rude, this is being biblical.



It's not merely what I believe, but what God says is the truth. Every lost person is operating under enormous self-deception and the lies of the devil. It is why it takes divine intervention to bring anyone to a saving faith in Christ and why, even in the face of all the excellent arguments and evidence for God that one may offer, the vast majority of atheists I've encountered refuse to be convinced. They carry on as though the arguments and evidence are flawed, unconvincing, but the reality is that they are as God in His word says they are: lost, blind, deaf, bound in sin and Satan's power.



No, it's not.



It is my choice to believe what God says about all lost people, yes.

You have a good day, too.
Fair enough. If you felt that way then I must have said something to offend you and I apologize. I would think me calling a statement rude and you saying all atheists have deceitful hearts are a little different but it’s honestly irrelevant if you felt offended then an apology is necessary from my end and I hope you accept it. Thanks for the back and forth. Have a good one:)
 
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This has no bearing at all upon the fact that you were being critical of me, calling me rude, and harsh, and guilty of making ridiculous remarks. I think your words to me were rude and harsh. How, then, are you not acting in the very same way toward me that you were accusing me of acting toward atheists? Pot calling the kettle black, I think.



As I showed you from Scripture, this is what GOD says about all who are lost. Is God just being rude and lying? No.



So have I. A great deal of time, actually, over the years.



And this is, at bottom, because they are in rebellion toward God, caught in the grip of the World, the Flesh and the devil, as Paul explained in Ephesians 2:1-3. This is not being rude, this is being biblical.



It's not merely what I believe, but what God says is the truth. Every lost person is operating under enormous self-deception and the lies of the devil. It is why it takes divine intervention to bring anyone to a saving faith in Christ and why, even in the face of all the excellent arguments and evidence for God that one may offer, the vast majority of atheists I've encountered refuse to be convinced. They carry on as though the arguments and evidence are flawed, unconvincing, but the reality is that they are as God in His word says they are: lost, blind, deaf, bound in sin and Satan's power.



No, it's not.



It is my choice to believe what God says about all lost people, yes.

You have a good day, too.
Hey quick question. If I’m telling you that I personally know atheist who’s hearts are not deceitful do you still not think you are wrong in saying atheists have deceitful hearts?
 
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