Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

How are we saved.

  • saved by works, merit, obedience, performance morally speaking, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • saved by works of the law, plus faith

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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    29
  • Poll closed .
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Dr. Jack

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First, if what you say is true on repentance, then John the Baptist was teaching falsely. He said bring forth fruits worthy of repentance and he mentioned how the axe is laid to the root of the tree. Meaning, they were going to be cut down if they do not bring forth deeds (or fruits) befitting of repentance. Examples of what John the Baptist said in Matthew 3 for fruit (or deeds) worthy of repentance is giving your second coat to the person who has none, and giving some of your meat (food) to the person has none. Jesus said a similar thing in John 15:5-6 and He essentially said that branch that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. This lines up with the Parable of the Talents where the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). For the servant who was faithful over a little was said to enter into the joy of His Lord (Matthew 25:21).

Second, you did not offer any counter explanation on the points I made for repentance, and how your version does not make any sense. In fact, to say that your version of repentance is Belief Alone-ism or believing in Christ is not exactly accurate in light of what we see in Scripture. Repentance is different than trusting in Christ as your Savior. It is clearly a word that means "seeking forgiveness" (as I demonstrated by the verses I shown to you before). Your more detailed explanation on what repentance means only makes it worse when you try to apply that meaning to other parts of the Bible where the word "repent" appears. Again, try and replace the word with your definition for the word "repent" and the text is rendered nonsensical and has less meaning of what is taking place.

Three, none of the verses you presented actually show the word "repent" and how that fits with your definition of repentance. Your definition for repentance has to FIT THE CONTEXT or the surrounding words where the word "repent" appears. Your definition for repent does not fit or work when reading the text. It only causes confusion in what the text plainly says.

Four, 2 Corinthians 7:10 is about Paul talking about seeking forgiveness with GOD whereby they would forsake certain sins. For Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 12:20-21,

20 "For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

Your version would say,

20 "For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not trusted in Jesus for his righteousness alone and not worry about sin so much of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

Your definition of repentance above makes the above passage into utter nonsense and does not fit what the text plainly says. In the beginning of verse 21 Paul is hypothetically speaking that if he were to visit them again and he found them sinning, and that he would need to be humbled among them in the fact that they are still sinning the kinds of sins like fornication, etc. But that makes no sense because if they were simply trusting in the finished work of the cross and they were still sinning, Paul would not be upset that they are still sinning because they are still saved and secure in God's grace (by which God is glorified in your view).

My version would say,

20 "For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not sought forgiveness with the Lord Jesus by way of prayer [with a godly sorrow] of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

Seeking forgiveness with the Lord (repentance) with a godly sorrow leads to upright actions (the fruits of repentance).

How does a godly sorrow even work in your view?
Your version of grace can make for an allowance for a person to sin and still be saved.
For do you not believe future sin is forgiven a person?
If so, a person can turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level as a result of such.
No godly sorrow would be present in such a belief.
Godly sorrow is where a person is truly sorrow about their sin whereby they are truly sorry before the Lord that they sinned against Him, and that they would make good on their prayer with God and forsake such a sin and or sins. For if they do not forsake such a sin, they are not really sorry. It would be like a husband who cheats on his wife, and he tells her that he is sorry for doing so, and yet he has no intention of ever stopping or he does not take his unfaithfulness that seriously. But if this was the case, can the husband expect his wife to stay with him even if he said he could continue to cheat on her and he just paid lip service to her that he was sorry? No. He would not really be sorry unless he stopped being unfaithful to her and he was truly sorry in his heart.
Please do me a favor, do not assume to know that I think sin is trivial.

This morning, as I lay in bed, I thought about eating breakfast. There was no immediate need for me to get up, and I considered staying in bed a little while longer. As I do a great amount of traveling, It means going to the restaurant for breakfast. As I continued to think about remaining in bed a bit longer, I began to realize that since it was rather early, their would be fewer patrons in the restaurant, and the service would probably by a bit quicker. Hence, I repented concerning staying in bed, (I changed my mind), and got up in order to have breakfast.

If someone knew that I desired to remain in bed, the evidence that I repented was that I went to breakfast.

When John told the Pharisees in Matthew to ...

3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matthew

It was because he knew that they were not genuine in their statements, nor there actions.

Repentance occurs in the heart as to what we actually believe concerning our eternal destiny.

We also repent (in our hearts) about how to live, in order to glorify Christ. The ACTION that follows repentance, is not repentance, it is the result of repentance. it is the difference between justification, and sanctification. Justification is the legal term used in defense to show that condemnation can no longer be applied to our account. Sanctification is that process in which the Holy Spirit purifies us in order to now be used by Him.

If I purchase a set of dishes at Salvation Army, I now own them (we have been bought with a price); now I must wash them prior to using them to eat,

6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Corinthians

Paul wrote this epistle to a very, very carnal church. Yet, He told them that they were owned by God.

What was Paul telling them?

They needed to cleanse their lives in order to be used by God for His glory. (They weren't currently glorifying God by their carnality; but, they were still saved.

6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Corinthians

Now if you ask me, you would have told the folks in Corinth that they had no works, and were therefore lost ... It seems like you and Paul would have issues.
 
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Dr. Jack

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Bless you friend but we must understand the differences between those who were seeking to be justified by works and those who seek to do works simply to serve God. Works are emphasized and encouraged throughout the scriptures and also considered necessary in order to receive eternal life. James 2:14-26 John 15:1-10, and Matthew 25:21-46 are just a few examples of this.
Okay, if works are ...
emphasized and encouraged throughout the scriptures and also considered necessary in order to receive eternal life
... Then how can salvation be:
1) by grace and not of works; and
2) a free gift?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Okay, if works are ...

... Then how can salvation be:
1) by grace and not of works; and
2) a free gift?

By grace you have been saved thru faith for good works thru Jesus Christ.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Good works do not pay for our sins so no amount of works could ever reconcile us to God. Therefore works can not justify us. So salvation is still a free gift that could not otherwise be received without faith. This doesn’t mean that God does not have expectations of His children after being justified. So even tho God expects us to do good works in order to receive salvation this does not negate that we are justified by grace thru having faith.

The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Just because we have been made right with God that does not mean that we can never be made wrong with Him afterwards. I’m sure you would agree that being justified is not a license to sin or exempts us from the necessity of loving others? Would you agree?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Okay, if works are ...

... Then how can salvation be:
1) by grace and not of works; and
2) a free gift?

Paul said if I have faith so as to move mountains but I have not Love I am nothing.
 
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Dr. Jack

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By grace you have been saved thru faith for good works thru Jesus Christ.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Good works do not pay for our sins so no amount of works could ever reconcile us to God. Therefore works can not justify us. So salvation is still a free gift that could not otherwise be received without faith. This doesn’t mean that God does not have expectations of His children after being justified. So even tho God expects us to do good works in order to receive salvation this does not negate that we are justified by grace thru having faith.

The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Just because we have been made right with God that does not mean that we can never be made wrong with Him afterwards. I’m sure you would agree that being justified is not a license to sin or exempts us from the necessity of loving others? Would you agree?
I wrote this very brief article to address that very point:

License to sin:

It seems as though many believe that those who subscribe to “eternal security”, or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) also subscribe to some idea of having a “license to sin". This entire idea is not only ludicrous, but a complete fabrication made in ignorance of both Scripture, and reality!


Let’s take a moment to consider what a license is:

The primary definition of “license" according to the Merriam Webster 2019 Dictionary is “permission to act”.
Hence, when people say that I as a subscriber to OSAS, say that I subscribe to the idea that I have a “license to sin", they are saying that I subscribe to the idea that because I am eternally secure in Christ, that I also subscribe to the idea that God has given me a “license to sin"! Really?

By that reasoning, any person who “sins" (after getting saved), that doesn’t immediately loose their salvation, must also subscribe to the same idea!

Why is it that I would need a “licence to sin"?

I remember back in 1985 when I was involved in the street ministry at Lighthouse Baptist Church in La Mesa, CA. On Friday nights men of the church would go to a corner in San Diego an preach on the street corner. I didn’t preach (at first); I just dealt one on one with people walking by.

One Friday night however, (about the 3rd or 4th time I went), it seemed that all the “preachers" were busy dealing one on one, and I was the odd man out (so to speak … I think they set me up on purpose). The light turned red, the traffic stopped, the audience was there in place … three minutes of opportunity! I tried to pretend I didn’t notice. But sure enough, good old Skip Crowder, (a short plump sailor) looked me square in the eyes and said, You must preach, we're all busy. I said, I don’t preach! He said, Quote Scripture!

I held up my King James Bible (the way I saw them do it .. waving it in the air, and at the top of my lungs began quoting Scripture. Did I mention I was a Marine Corps Drill Instructor, and had an incredibly loud voice? I think I quoted Scripture through about 4 red lights.

Folks, I had NO LICENSE to preach, I had no idea that God was calling me to preach. But I was preaching! I submit first, that there is not a single person who identifies as a “Christian”, who does not sin. Second, let’s be clear, sin is a transgression of the law …

3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John

Since we know that ALL Christians sin, (no matter what the sin is), we must ask, Do those Christians that do NOT subscribe to “eternal security”, or OSAS also subscribe to having a “license to sin”?

Whether it is a hidden sin that others cannot see, or apparent sin that all can see, SIN IS SIN.

Do I believe that we should as Christians rid our lives of sin by subjecting ourselves to the power of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely!

But do I, or do you, or does ANYONE know

1) that God is not working in the heart of the person, or people we may be judging unjustly;
2) how God is working;
3) what plans God has for those in whom He is working?
 
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Please do me a favor, do not assume to know that I think sin is trivial.

If you do not hold to the Bible's view on sin and how it can lead to the destruction of a believer's soul (like with king Saul, and Ananias and Sapphira), then you are treating sin as trivial (biblically speaking). If you believe in Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism the inescapable conclusion leads to immorality on some level (Unless you say a person is never born again to begin with if they are not walking that holy life). But this point needs to be stressed every time you talk about Eternal Security because if you don't stress that fact, folks can easily think you are teaching a license for immorality (because they may think that if they sin, they will not lose their salvation).
For do you believe the carnal Christian is saved?
Most today in Christianity do. Folks like Gotquestions.org is just one of many examples.
Do you believe future sin is forgiven for a believer?
If so, then telling others this can easily lead them to turn God's grace into a license to sin. Just read up on George Sodini and OSAS by doing a search on Google using the key words "George Sodini OSAS." For he professed in his suicide letter that he be saved by his belief alone on Jesus despite his future admittance to murdering a bunch of people, and in taking his own life.

You said:
This morning, as I lay in bed, I thought about eating breakfast. There was no immediate need for me to get up, and I considered staying in bed a little while longer. As I do a great amount of traveling, It means going to the restaurant for breakfast. As I continued to think about remaining in bed a bit longer, I began to realize that since it was rather early, their would be fewer patrons in the restaurant, and the service would probably by a bit quicker. Hence, I repented concerning staying in bed, (I changed my mind), and got up in order to have breakfast.

I can change the meaning of words, but that does not mean that I would be correct in doing so. This is not repentance according to the Bible. Changing your mind is not repentance just because you say so or other popular religious leaders say so. It's not how the Bible defines repentance. You need to prove your case that this is so with the Bible. So far you have not convinced me of that. You have not brought forth one verse that clearly teaches that repent means to exclusively change your mind. Verses like Luke 17:3, and Acts of the Apostles 8:22 would be rendered nonsensical if what you say is true. For if the man in Luke 17:3 just changed his mind about his sin against his brother and he said nothing about it to him, then how would the other brother know to forgive him? But if repent means "seek forgiveness" then Luke 17:3 makes sense. For the man would seek forgiveness with his brother and his brother would then forgive him. In Acts of the Apostles 8:22, Peter tells Simon to repent of his one time wickedness in trying to pay for the Spirit. If "repent" means as you say, this verse would be illogical. Peter would be attempting to tell this mean to no longer do this particular kind of sin (By telling him to change his mind on this sin). But is Simon going to really change his mind in this way and never continue to keep doing this (even though such a scenario would never probably occur in his life like that again)? No. So Simon would be seeking forgiveness with the Lord because Peter told him to pray to the Lord in that he might find forgiveness. See, the surrounding words determine what the word is saying. Your understanding on the word "repent" is unnatural and it is a forced definition that makes the reader scratching their head in trying to figure out how to make such a definition work.


You said:
When John told the Pharisees in Matthew to ...

3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matthew

It was because he knew that they were not genuine in their statements, nor there actions.

No. Matthew 3 lines up with Mark 1. In Mark 1:4-5; It says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4 - Mark 1:4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they were "confessing their sins" when they were baptized (verse 5 - Mark 1:5).

Notice, John the baptist does not ask the men the question, "Do you change your mind about sin?" when he is baptizing them. Instead, they were confessing their sins when they were being baptized, which is seeking forgiveness with GOD or the LORD.

Also, how can you have a godly sorrow like in 2 Corinthians 7:10 if you do not ask the Lord to forgive you? Is this not what we see the tax collector do in the "Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee"? (See: Luke 18:9-14).
 
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I wrote this very brief article to address that very point:

License to sin:

It seems as though many believe that those who subscribe to “eternal security”, or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) also subscribe to some idea of having a “license to sin". This entire idea is not only ludicrous, but a complete fabrication made in ignorance of both Scripture, and reality!


Let’s take a moment to consider what a license is:

The primary definition of “license" according to the Merriam Webster 2019 Dictionary is “permission to act”.
Hence, when people say that I as a subscriber to OSAS, say that I subscribe to the idea that I have a “license to sin", they are saying that I subscribe to the idea that because I am eternally secure in Christ, that I also subscribe to the idea that God has given me a “license to sin"! Really?

By that reasoning, any person who “sins" (after getting saved), that doesn’t immediately loose their salvation, must also subscribe to the same idea!

Why is it that I would need a “licence to sin"?

I remember back in 1985 when I was involved in the street ministry at Lighthouse Baptist Church in La Mesa, CA. On Friday nights men of the church would go to a corner in San Diego an preach on the street corner. I didn’t preach (at first); I just dealt one on one with people walking by.

One Friday night however, (about the 3rd or 4th time I went), it seemed that all the “preachers" were busy dealing one on one, and I was the odd man out (so to speak … I think they set me up on purpose). The light turned red, the traffic stopped, the audience was there in place … three minutes of opportunity! I tried to pretend I didn’t notice. But sure enough, good old Skip Crowder, (a short plump sailor) looked me square in the eyes and said, You must preach, we're all busy. I said, I don’t preach! He said, Quote Scripture!

I held up my King James Bible (the way I saw them do it .. waving it in the air, and at the top of my lungs began quoting Scripture. Did I mention I was a Marine Corps Drill Instructor, and had an incredibly loud voice? I think I quoted Scripture through about 4 red lights.

Folks, I had NO LICENSE to preach, I had no idea that God was calling me to preach. But I was preaching! I submit first, that there is not a single person who identifies as a “Christian”, who does not sin. Second, let’s be clear, sin is a transgression of the law …

3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John

Since we know that ALL Christians sin, (no matter what the sin is), we must ask, Do those Christians that do NOT subscribe to “eternal security”, or OSAS also subscribe to having a “license to sin”?

Whether it is a hidden sin that others cannot see, or apparent sin that all can see, SIN IS SIN.

Do I believe that we should as Christians rid our lives of sin by subjecting ourselves to the power of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely!

But do I, or do you, or does ANYONE know

1) that God is not working in the heart of the person, or people we may be judging unjustly;
2) how God is working;
3) what plans God has for those in whom He is working?

The phrase "License to sin" is a figure of speech or phrase that basically says that a person is free to sin without the impunity of sin (or spiritual death resulting). If a hunter has a license to hunt, he has free reign to hunt in designated hunting areas and or areas where he is given permission to do so. You may be able to preach without acquiring a license, but that does not mean you may not be acting in accordance with the local laws. Some areas of the world do require you to get permission to preach publicly. Granted, I think GOD would like us to cooperate with the laws of the land, but I think that if the laws forbid in preaching the gospel, then we are free to still preach the gospel, because we ultimately are to obey GOD and not men. But cooperating with the local laws so as to gain permission to preach the gospel is the proper approach in my opinion because we are to obey the laws of the land (unless those laws conflict with God's laws) (See Romans 13).

God never approves of us doing sin. Sin has consequences that leads to spiritual death unless one confesses and forsakes their sin. This applies to the believer in Jesus and even for the unbeliever. Jesus warned all that looking upon a woman in lust could potentially cause a person to be cast bodily into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus warned all that not forgiving another meant that we would not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). The apostle John (after the cross) said that if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us and we are like a murderer. But if one teaches that a person can look upon a woman in lust, not forgive others, and hate their brother and they will still be saved, they are teaching something contrary to the Bible; And they are giving men a license or permission to sin with no impunity or with no serious punishment or dire consequences given to us by GOD in the after life.

Side Note:

Oh, and technically the Constitution gives us a license or permission to have free speech in this country, but this freedom or permission is being slowly taken away from us in certain parts of our own country. So technically, yes. You do have a license to preach. It is the US Constitution. In those areas of our country where preaching is not tolerated in some way and or other parts of the world where preaching the gospel is forbidden, Jesus, (and or His words) from the Holy Scriptures (the Bible) would then be our license to preach. For Jesus gave us His disciples a command to preach to all nations and to make disciples, etc.
 
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If you do not hold to the Bible's view on sin and how it can lead to the destruction of a believer's soul (like with king Saul, and Ananias and Sapphira), then you are treating sin as trivial (biblically speaking). If you believe in Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism the inescapable conclusion leads to immorality on some level (Unless you say a person is never born again to begin with if they are not walking that holy life). But this point needs to be stressed every time you talk about Eternal Security because if you don't stress that fact, folks can easily think you are teaching a license for immorality (because they may think that if they sin, they will not lose their salvation).
For do you believe the carnal Christian is saved?
Most today in Christianity do. Folks like Gotquestions.org is just one of many examples.
Do you believe future sin is forgiven for a believer?
If so, then telling others this can easily lead them to turn God's grace into a license to sin. Just read up on George Sodini and OSAS by doing a search on Google using the key words "George Sodini OSAS." For he professed in his suicide letter that he be saved by his belief alone on Jesus despite his future admittance to murdering a bunch of people, and in taking his own life.



I can change the meaning of words, but that does not mean that I would be correct in doing so. This is not repentance according to the Bible. Changing your mind is not repentance just because you say so or other popular religious leaders say so. It's not how the Bible defines repentance. You need to prove your case that this is so with the Bible. So far you have not convinced me of that. You have not brought forth one verse that clearly teaches that repent means to exclusively change your mind. Verses like Luke 17:3, and Acts of the Apostles 8:22 would be rendered nonsensical if what you say is true. For if the man in Luke 17:3 just changed his mind about his sin against his brother and he said nothing about it to him, then how would the other brother know to forgive him? But if repent means "seek forgiveness" then Luke 17:3 makes sense. For the man would seek forgiveness with his brother and his brother would then forgive him. In Acts of the Apostles 8:22, Peter tells Simon to repent of his one time wickedness in trying to pay for the Spirit. If "repent" means as you say, this verse would be illogical. Peter would be attempting to tell this mean to no longer do this particular kind of sin (By telling him to change his mind on this sin). But is Simon going to really change his mind in this way and never continue to keep doing this (even though such a scenario would never probably occur in his life like that again)? No. So Simon would be seeking forgiveness with the Lord because Peter told him to pray to the Lord in that he might find forgiveness. See, the surrounding words determine what the word is saying. Your understanding on the word "repent" is unnatural and it is a forced definition that makes the reader scratching their head in trying to figure out how to make such a definition work.




No. Matthew 3 lines up with Mark 1. In Mark 1:4-5; It says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4 - Mark 1:4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they were "confessing their sins" when they were baptized (verse 5 - Mark 1:5).

Notice, John the baptist does not ask the men the question, "Do you change your mind about sin?" when he is baptizing them. Instead, they were confessing their sins when they were being baptized, which is seeking forgiveness with GOD or the LORD.

Also, how can you have a godly sorrow like in 2 Corinthians 7:10 if you do not ask the Lord to forgive you? Is this not what we see the tax collector do in the "Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee"? (See: Luke 18:9-14).
There are times when I wonder if people really understand what the Bible says!

Let me begin with ...

7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

It seems that no matter how many times I break this down, people simply reject the truth.

The word "For" here means, "because of".

"godly sorrow"

Whe a person sees the majesty, grace, and mercy of God, it causes us to "repent".

Notice the words "godly sorrow worketh repentance".

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah

God gave us the ability to reason. Why?

God wants us to examine ourselves, consider Who He is, and draw a conclusion.

When we are truthful with ourselves, we see who we really are.

64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah

The truth of the matter is, we have NO good in us, and NO ability in ourselves to do anything that merit anything from God.

It is important that we get this point. I remember preaching a message to my church years ago about our need to pray today, for tomorrow. Why? Because tomorrow we will be in the midst of an attack by Satan and the world, and our natural reflex is to say, "I got this" ... the problem is ... we don't.

We are siiners until the very moment of death. Our wicked deceitful heart will find a way to do evil! Let's not sugar coat it!

Today, while the Holy Spirit at least has some of our attention, we need to cry out and plea with Him to allow us to stop us long enough to ask Him to come to our aid, rather than let us even think about carrying ourselves through our troubles.

This knowledge concerning ourselves is why we come to the realization that we have no hope without Christ.

I have come to the realization that every work I do, that is not directed by God, has been corrupted by my filthy hands.

This is what godly sorrow is about. We realze that our wickedness is the reason for God to die for our sins, we cannot do anything except "repent" ... change our mind concerning Jesus Christ.

"unto salvation"

Our changing our mind concerning Christ results in salvation. Now I know that people say, Repentance means seeking forgiveness for sin!

Okay, of the various times where the Bible tells us that God repented, what sin, or sins was God "seeking forgiveness" for?

The other argument is that NOONE actually knows what the Hebrew or Greek words actually mean anymore, they are guessing, at best. Well, if that's the case, we are in some REALLY serious trouble. You see, it would have been those guys that translated the Bible, (you know, the ones that were guessing at best), that gave us our English Bible. So, if they were guessing at best, we have absolutely no way of knowing with any certainty whatsoever, that what they gave us is of any value whatsoever!

Either they actually did know what the words meant, or they were guessing at best. One way we can be certain of the truth, and the other .. not so much.

Moving on ...

But did you notice, the verse doesn't end here.

"not to be repented of"

Interesting!

A REAL repentance unto salvation is "not to be repented of", meaning that the process of reasoning was so persuasive that it will not, or cannot be changed back to the former belief.

Have you ever thought about that? A real conversion to Christ (salvation) is a change of mind that will not be 'reversed'. For some reason, that sounds like a OSAS verse to me!

But the verse still hasn't ended ...

"but the sorrow of the world worketh death".

Any sorrow that doesn't align with "godly sorrow" (the kind that causes an irreversible change of mind), is a "sorrow" is "world[ly]", and is a sorrow that "worketh death".

My question is "what change of mind" is in your heart?
 
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There are times when I wonder if people really understand what the Bible says!

Well, I can say the same thing because you are not really addressing all my points that I have made with Scripture. This would be a defense of what the text says in the English, and it would not be in a dead language that nobody really knows with 100% certainty.

As for other points, they will have to wait. I have other things to do today, and I may not reply until the late evening or tomorrow morning.

May you blessed today in the Lord.
 
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Well, I can say the same thing because you are not really addressing all my points that I have made with Scripture. This would be a defense of what the text says in the English, and it would not be in a dead language that nobody really knows with 100% certainty.

As for other points, they will have to wait. I have other things to do today, and I may not reply until the late evening or tomorrow morning.

May you blessed today in the Lord.
So the Greek language is a "dead language" ... Really?

The following excerpt was taken from:
What Languages are Spoken in Greece?

"Greek, the official and primary language of Greece is spoken by the majority of the country's population. English is the dominant foreign language spoken in the business world of Greece and also taught in the schools. Greek is also the de facto provincial language in Albanian. Today, it exists as Modern Greek with many dialects in the different regions of the country. Greek is also one of the oldest Indo-European languages in the world having survived more than 34 centuries, and it is the official language alongside Turkish in Cyprus. Today, more than 15-25 million people speak Greek and in Greece 99.5% of the population converse in the language."

The following excerpt was taken from:
What “Bible” do we use?

(A site of the Greek Orthodox Church in Colorado, which aligns with the article presented by Allas, concerning the use of Greek, in Greece.)

"What “Bible” do we use?
We use use the “same Bible” as other Christians. Specifically:

We use the Septuagint canon and text of the Old Testament, because these are the “Hebrew Scriptures” read by Christ in the synagogues and used by the Apostles wherever they preached.

We use the New Testament canon and text developedover the first several centuries by the Orthodox Church.

The Septuagint, abbreviated “LXX,” is a Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures done by seventy (or seventy-two) elders about two centuries before Christ in Alexandria, Egypt. The Septuagint was the “Bible” in first-century Palestine and the Jewish diaspora throughout the Mediterranean region.

At the time of Christ, Hebrew was only used and understood at the Temple in Jerusalem. Aramaic was the spoken language of Jews in Palestine, and Koine Greek was the lingua franca, the commonly-spoken language, of Mediterranean lands in the Roman Empire. When Jesus read in the synagogue (e.g., Luke 4:16) He did so from the Septuagint. The Apostles preached in Koine Greek, and used the Septuagint texts wherever they quoted the Old Testament in their Gospels and Epistles."

While Hebrew was somewhat different in its ancient form, there can be no doubt that God has preserved the text, and the meaning thereof , throughout time.

The bottom line is this, the English Bible is the result of God using learned men in both the Biblical language (including the narrative thereof), and the English language. The ENTIRE purpose of translation is to render in the "target" language the meaning of the "source" language.

Whether you like it or not, our English definitions of Scripture must align with the Scripture in the language they are based upon.

You say that the Greek language of the Bible (Koine) is dead, but both a secular source, and the Greek Orthodox Church disagree with you.

It is blatantly clear that if the 1) nation of Greece has been using Greek for 34 centuries; and 2) the Greek Orthodox Church states they use Biblical Koine Greek, (and always have); it is you who has the burden of proof to show neither the nation of Greece, nor the people who attend the Greek Orthodox Churches, simply do not understand their native language.

You have admitted that you do not read either Hebrew, or Greek, yet you find yourself qualified (somehow, some way) to make the assertion that NO Hebrew, or Greek reading person is certain about their language.

Your entire argument rests upon your preconceived opinions that obviously developed into your theological perspective.

Essentially, you are saying, Because I understand these texts in this way, the words must mean what I say they mean, irregardless of their supposed definition in the original Biblical language.

I do not think that is proper exegesis, or hermeneutics.
 
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There are times when I wonder if people really understand what the Bible says!

Let me begin with ...

7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

It seems that no matter how many times I break this down, people simply reject the truth.

The word "For" here means, "because of".

"godly sorrow"

Whe a person sees the majesty, grace, and mercy of God, it causes us to "repent".

Notice the words "godly sorrow worketh repentance".

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah

God gave us the ability to reason. Why?

God wants us to examine ourselves, consider Who He is, and draw a conclusion.

When we are truthful with ourselves, we see who we really are.

64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah

The truth of the matter is, we have NO good in us, and NO ability in ourselves to do anything that merit anything from God.

It is important that we get this point. I remember preaching a message to my church years ago about our need to pray today, for tomorrow. Why? Because tomorrow we will be in the midst of an attack by Satan and the world, and our natural reflex is to say, "I got this" ... the problem is ... we don't.

We are siiners until the very moment of death. Our wicked deceitful heart will find a way to do evil! Let's not sugar coat it!

Today, while the Holy Spirit at least has some of our attention, we need to cry out and plea with Him to allow us to stop us long enough to ask Him to come to our aid, rather than let us even think about carrying ourselves through our troubles.

This knowledge concerning ourselves is why we come to the realization that we have no hope without Christ.

I have come to the realization that every work I do, that is not directed by God, has been corrupted by my filthy hands.

This is what godly sorrow is about. We realze that our wickedness is the reason for God to die for our sins, we cannot do anything except "repent" ... change our mind concerning Jesus Christ.

"unto salvation"

Our changing our mind concerning Christ results in salvation. Now I know that people say, Repentance means seeking forgiveness for sin!

Okay, of the various times where the Bible tells us that God repented, what sin, or sins was God "seeking forgiveness" for?

The other argument is that NOONE actually knows what the Hebrew or Greek words actually mean anymore, they are guessing, at best. Well, if that's the case, we are in some REALLY serious trouble. You see, it would have been those guys that translated the Bible, (you know, the ones that were guessing at best), that gave us our English Bible. So, if they were guessing at best, we have absolutely no way of knowing with any certainty whatsoever, that what they gave us is of any value whatsoever!

Either they actually did know what the words meant, or they were guessing at best. One way we can be certain of the truth, and the other .. not so much.

Moving on ...

But did you notice, the verse doesn't end here.

"not to be repented of"

Interesting!

A REAL repentance unto salvation is "not to be repented of", meaning that the process of reasoning was so persuasive that it will not, or cannot be changed back to the former belief.

Have you ever thought about that? A real conversion to Christ (salvation) is a change of mind that will not be 'reversed'. For some reason, that sounds like a OSAS verse to me!

But the verse still hasn't ended ...

"but the sorrow of the world worketh death".

Any sorrow that doesn't align with "godly sorrow" (the kind that causes an irreversible change of mind), is a "sorrow" is "world[ly]", and is a sorrow that "worketh death".

My question is "what change of mind" is in your heart?
I believe God requires repentance of sin at salvation for one reason. Because that will be a life long tool for our victory over sin. Initially we cast down our idols we were worshiping to worship the true God, then as we are sanctified that same exact mechanism perfects us. It's a glorious salvation,.
 
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I believe God requires repentance of sin at salvation for one reason. Because that will be a life long tool for our victory over sin. Initially we cast down our idols we were worshiping to worship the true God, then as we are sanctified that same exact mechanism perfects us. It's a glorious salvation,.
Please don't misunderstand me, turning from our sin is a good thing, but since ALL doctrine MUST have its premise in Scripture; can you provide a Scripture that states specifically that God requires repentance of sin at salvation?

Repentance is a change of mind, but repentance of sin that is "required" means that God requires us not to sin. If that is what God requires, there is no salvation for mankind, because there is no man that is without sin.

Now you might say, you don't mean absolute sinlessness; but is there a Scripture that supports that position? Do you see the dilemma?
 
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I believe God requires repentance of sin at salvation for one reason. Because that will be a life long tool for our victory over sin. Initially we cast down our idols we were worshiping to worship the true God, then as we are sanctified that same exact mechanism perfects us. It's a glorious salvation,.
A quick note:
Years ago I preached a message titled: Treat the problem; not the symptom.

We must understand that the reason for our wickedness is our unbelief. When we ask first repent, we are treating our problem of unbelief at its core level. (Justification)

Then, as we grow in the Christian life, God continues to show us how we must repent (change our mind); concerning our ability to manage our own lives (sanctification). Our lives become more like Christvas we have a renewing of our minds (Romans 12), concerning Christ's involvement in our lives.

Hence, we treat the problem ... not the symptoms.
 
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So the Greek language is a "dead language" ... Really?

*Sigh* Yes, I did not arrive on the planet yesterday. I am aware of the country of Greece and its people. I work with somebody from Greece. I was referring to Biblical Greek (Which is a dead language). So my point is that nobody speaks, or writes Biblical Greek. There is a difference.

You said:
We use the New Testament canon and text developedover the first several centuries by the Orthodox Church.

Do you have a time machine to confirm that this church goes back to the early apostles?

You said:
The Septuagint, abbreviated “LXX,” is a Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures done by seventy (or seventy-two) elders about two centuries before Christ in Alexandria, Egypt. The Septuagint was the “Bible” in first-century Palestine and the Jewish diaspora throughout the Mediterranean region.

Jesus referred to jots and tittles, which is a part of the Hebrew language and not the Greek language. So there was no LXX before Christ.

You said:
You say that the Greek language of the Bible (Koine) is dead, but both a secular source, and the Greek Orthodox Church disagree with you.

Well, if you value the Greek Orthodox Church, then you must believe as they do in regards to Soteriology. They believe we are saved by faith + works of faith like me. Granted, I do not hold to their other beliefs like their kissing of pictures of European artistic renditions of Jesus and his disciples, and their prayers to the saints. They also believe their special sacraments is a part of salvation, too (of which I also do not agree with).

You said:
It is blatantly clear that if the 1) nation of Greece has been using Greek for 34 centuries; and 2) the Greek Orthodox Church states they use Biblical Koine Greek, (and always have); it is you who has the burden of proof to show neither the nation of Greece, nor the people who attend the Greek Orthodox Churches, simply do not understand their native language.

You have admitted that you do not read either Hebrew, or Greek, yet you find yourself qualified (somehow, some way) to make the assertion that NO Hebrew, or Greek reading person is certain about their language.

Your entire argument rests upon your preconceived opinions that obviously developed into your theological perspective.

Essentially, you are saying, Because I understand these texts in this way, the words must mean what I say they mean, irregardless of their supposed definition in the original Biblical language.

I do not think that is proper exegesis, or hermeneutics.

I am saying for you to use the Bible in the English only because a person cannot change a word in the English like they can in Biblical Greek without it raising any alarms. We both know English, but nobody today truly knows a dead language like Biblical Greek (Despite what anyone says). For those who seek out the whole original languages as their form of interpretation usually will change what the text says in our English bibles at some point. Most in America did not seek forgiveness of their sins with the Lord Jesus by hearing the words in Biblical Greek. Neither do they read in Biblical Greek, either.
 
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There are times when I wonder if people really understand what the Bible says!

Well, I also wonder many times if people really understand the Bible, too.
But we both cannot be right. So one of us is correct, and the other is wrong.

The proof is in whether somebody’s conclusions are based on trying to insert a belief into the Bible beyond what the text plainly says. So far I have not seen you support your views on Soteriology in light of what the Bible says at face value in our English bibles (of which you apparently think you cannot understand without a Lexicon and Concordance). For words have to be redefined by some original languages claim while it ignores what the context (the surrounding words say in the English).

You said:
Let me begin with ...

7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

It seems that no matter how many times I break this down, people simply reject the truth.

I can say the same in regards to 2 Corinthians 7:10.

Again, your just claiming to be correct does not mean that you are, my friend.

How exactly does 2 Corinthians 12:20-21 mean in your view with your understanding on the word “repented”?

"For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

Paul is talking to believers and he says that they were sinning, and he thought that he would have to bewail or correct many who have sinned because they have not repented of their fornication and lusts. Your view on the word “repent” said before that it means to believe on Jesus for one’s righteousness instead of their own. It is to have a change of mind about sin. But in this case, Paul is saying that he wanted to correct them of their sin and he was not trying to correct them on them not thinking that Jesus paid for all their sins vs. them worrying about putting away sin. Paul here is asking them to stop sinning these kinds of sins. For Paul in another place asks, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. (See: Romans 6:1). Meaning, you cannot continue in sin so that grace can abound. For grace reigns (or rules) through righteousness (righteous living) (See: Romans 5:21).

Anyways, getting back to 2 Corinthians 7:10.

Did you even read the first verse in this chapter recently?
Do you know what it says?

Well, I know this verse (in part) by heart; For I can quote the part of this verse that you are ignoring many, many times.

The part of the verse, I know by heart says,

“...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

This is the context of 2 Corinthians 7:10.

Also, let's look at verse 9.

"Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing." (2 Corinthians 7:9).

We see here that the Corinthians "were made sorry."
The Corinthians were sorrowed or sorry and it lead to "repentance."
This was done in a godly manner.

Now, let's look at verse 10.

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of [regretted]: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Corinthians 7:10).

What is the sorrow of the world vs. a godly sorrow?

Judas had a godly sorrow. He was sorry. He was sorry he got caught. Sorry that he betrayed the Lord. But he did not have a godly sorrow. He had a worldly sorrow and he did not repent towards God. He did not seek forgiveness with Jesus (i.e. to repent). He was sorry and grieved by what he did, but he ended up hanging himself in self pity instead of taking corrective action to seek forgiveness with the Lord. Peter denied the Lord, but he had a godly sorrow and sought forgiveness with the Lord. Therein lies the difference between the two.

You said:
1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah

As for Isaiah 1:18:

Well, two verses right before it says,

"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;" (Isaiah 1:16).

In other words, verse 16 tells the reader to put away the evil of their doings, and to cease from evil.

You said:
God wants us to examine ourselves, consider Who He is, and draw a conclusion.

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
(2 Corinthians 13:5).

How can we prove that Christ is in us?
By keeping His commandments (See 1 John 2:3).
For the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth (Jesus - John 14:6) is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).

You said:
64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah

Not sure why you are placing the number of the verse first and then the book name last. That makes no sense. I would have discovered the verse even if you did not post a verse number. In any event, if you were to look at the verse before Isaiah 64:6, it says this:

"You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved." (Isaiah 64:5).

So Isaiah here is saying that GOD meets the person who does righteousness.
God is angry that the Israelites have sinned.
How could God be angry at them for something that they have no control over in doing? If this is what you believe of GOD: That would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room for pooping on his carpets even when the owner knows that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick.
For you believe nobody can live righteously, right?
But it says here that GOD is angry because they have sinned.
This implies that they could have obeyed whereby GOD would not have gotten angry at them.

Think.

You said:
We are siiners until the very moment of death. Our wicked deceitful heart will find a way to do evil! Let's not sugar coat it!

Your definitely not reading the same Bible I am reading. It is written:

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

And there are tons more where these came from.

You said:
Our changing our mind concerning Christ results in salvation. Now I know that people say, Repentance means seeking forgiveness for sin!

Actually, most do not teach this version of repentance because they go by what the popular scholar says, and or what they have learned from an article, or website, or teacher, etc. They did not draw this conclusion on their own by simply studying the Bible in regards to this word.

You said:
Okay, of the various times where the Bible tells us that God repented, what sin, or sins was God "seeking forgiveness" for?

Well, I did not say that the Bible does not have homonyms in it. In other words, the Bible has words that look and sound the same, but they can have different meanings to them. Take for example the word "knew." It can refer to having had intimate relations or it can refer to a person having knowledge about something. In the case with GOD in Genesis 6, the word "repented" means "very sad" or "grieved." The KJV says "repented," but the,

The New International Reader's Version says,

6 The Lord was very sad that he had made human beings on the earth. His heart was filled with pain.
7 So the Lord said, “I created human beings, but I will wipe them out. I will also destroy the animals, the birds in the sky, and the creatures that move along the ground. I am very sad that I have made human beings.” (Genesis 6:6-7).

But in either case, your view on the word "repent" does not work here, either.
You want it to be a "change of mind" and or a "belief in the righteousness of Christ alone and not in one's own righteousness."

"not to be repented of"

Interesting!

Right. Homonyms. In this case it means "regret" or "made sorry" when Paul speaks of himself.

You said:
But the verse still hasn't ended ...

"but the sorrow of the world worketh death".

Any sorrow that doesn't align with "godly sorrow" (the kind that causes an irreversible change of mind), is a "sorrow" is "world[ly]", and is a sorrow that "worketh death".

My question is "what change of mind" is in your heart?

Think about this for a moment. Why is it called a "godly sorrow"?
If it is a godly sorrow it cannot be related to us justifying sin in any way.
You want me to believe that "repentance" in 2 Corinthians 7:10 means to believe in Jesus and not trust in our own righteousness because we are sinful. But can GOD sin? Surely not. If this is to be a GODLY sorrow, then it cannot be tainted with any wrong doing or sin in any way. In 1 Corinthians 2:16, Paul says we have the mind of Christ. Now, if we truly have the mind of Christ, then we will not justify sin and or think we will sin all the time because we cannot help it (as you claim). For Jesus never justified sin. His mind never thought that way.
 
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Please don't misunderstand me, turning from our sin is a good thing, but since ALL doctrine MUST have its premise in Scripture; can you provide a Scripture that states specifically that God requires repentance of sin at salvation?

Repentance is a change of mind, but repentance of sin that is "required" means that God requires us not to sin. If that is what God requires, there is no salvation for mankind, because there is no man that is without sin.

Now you might say, you don't mean absolute sinlessness; but is there a Scripture that supports that position? Do you see the dilemma?
Sir I posted an index in post 1, this index posts over 100 verses that mention some type of turning from sin while being saved. Feel to read it. I initially started this thread in light of that article, and asked people to speak of salvation in light of that article. Now repentance is never spoken of as a work in scripture, but a gift. We are allowed to be free from addiction in Jesus name.

Here is a Lordship Index,
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

Lets talk about how those verses in the new testament depict salvation, and how we are still saved by grace through faith alone, without the addition of repentance. (which is an error many christians make).

I took it out of op I guess, I will put it back.
 
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now recently a christian cult has permeated this thread with works salvation, I have refuted it, but the poster has a lot of time on his hands to post lots of posts, and I can't refute them all, so I don't recommend reading further. If you do want to tackle it go ahead, if you have any questions message me.

View attachment 264812
I often hear works-salvationists claim that believing in Jesus is not enough to be saved and then cite James 2:19 and point out that the demons "believe" yet they are not saved. What such people fail to understand is that in James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but the demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 16:31) Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. To believe in Jesus unto salvation is more than simply believing in the existence of Jesus and in certain historical facts about Jesus, like His death, burial and resurrection "happened." We must believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation to be saved. (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16)
 
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I often hear works-salvationists claim that believing in Jesus is not enough to be saved and then cite James 2:19 and point out that the demons "believe" yet they are not saved. What such people fail to understand is that in James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but the demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 16:31) Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. To believe in Jesus unto salvation is more than simply believing in the existence of Jesus and in certain historical facts about Jesus, like His death, burial and resurrection "happened." We must believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation to be saved. (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16)
YES! I believe part of trusting in Christ alone, is also the same act as turning both from unbelief, and from other idols. An idol can simply be a relationship that is not God honoring, or a Job that is sketchy, or a mentality of the accumulation of things over God. We worship idols all day long in nearly every way. So turning from them and following God is quite an event in one's life, and it transforms everything they view in the world, and their affections.
 
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I often hear works-salvationists claim that believing in Jesus is not enough to be saved and then cite James 2:19 and point out that the demons "believe" yet they are not saved. What such people fail to understand is that in James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but the demons do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 16:31) Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. To believe in Jesus unto salvation is more than simply believing in the existence of Jesus and in certain historical facts about Jesus, like His death, burial and resurrection "happened." We must believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation to be saved. (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16)

This is merely a denial of what James plainly says in James 2:19. For then what did James mean by James 2:19 by even the demons believe and tremble? He also said faith without works is dead, too (See James 2:17), and the body without the spirit is dead to show that faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

So what did James mean by James 2:19?

I will tell you.

In the beginning of James 2, the brethren James was writing to had respect of persons and they were not showing favor to the poor brethren, and they were showing favor to the rich brethren instead. James was saying that by their doing this they are breaking the Royal Law of love (to love your neighbor) and as a result, they were breaking all of God's laws by doing so (James 2:10). That is why James continues on and pushes his point that faith without works is dead. He was trying to show them that not loving the poor brethren is a dead faith of belief alone-ism in the LORD and such a faith has no true works of faith in their life to show that they truly know the LORD and have a genuine faith. Their faith is dead if they do not have works of love. 1 John 3:15 says that whoever hates his brother has no eternal life abiding in him.

James is CRITICIZING or CONDEMNING having a belief alone because he compares it to that of the faith of demons. The demons believe Jesus is the Savior for mankind (just as those brethren who refused to show love to the poor brethren). James is NOT saying that the demons believe that the Savior died for angels. That is ridiculous. James is saying that the demons believe the same facts about the Savior as these brethren do. The demons believe that Jesus is the Savior for MANKIND. The brethren who showed no love to the poor brethren and their faith or belief was similar to having just a certain acknowledgment of a set of facts about Jesus and it was not heart changing kind of faith. The demons believed the same thing that the brethren believed in the sense that Jesus is the Savior of MANKIND. The demons also trembled, as well. They tremble at GOD. But again, this kind of fear does not save them. Demons do not produce forth fruit or work in love to JESUS. Neither did the brethren who did not love the poor brethren and showed favor instead to the rich brethren unfairly. They were showing respect of persons and they hated their brothers in this case.
 
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Sir I posted an index in post 1, this index posts over 100 verses that mention some type of turning from sin while being saved. Feel to read it. I initially started this thread in light of that article, and asked people to speak of salvation in light of that article. Now repentance is never spoken of as a work in scripture, but a gift. We are allowed to be free from addiction in Jesus name.

Here is a Lordship Index,
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

Lets talk about how those verses in the new testament depict salvation, and how we are still saved by grace through faith alone, without the addition of repentance. (which is an error many christians make).

I took it out of op I guess, I will put it back.

Well, I addressed some of your points in light of your posting of this "LORDSHIP" Google document you posted before in a series of previous posts. I am trying to figure out if you added those comments to the document or if somebody else did. In either case, the comments added to the Biblical text are ridiculous and make off the wall claims that the texts do not even say in some cases. They also do not take into consideration other verses that explains them, either. I have addressed just a few of the beginning ones to show the illogical nature of the error of the author who commented on these texts in Scripture.

Either you and or others can freely check out my comments with Scripture (on this "LORDSHIP" Google doc.) in posts #131, #134, #135, #136, #137, #138, #139, #140.

Anyways, the problem I have with the commentator's conclusions on the Bible texts in the "LORDSHIP" Google document is that it is basically a denial of the text itself. How is one believing these verses? Are they to simply be thrown out? Many of them are the words of Jesus. Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Jesus says, "He that... receiveth not my words,... the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48). In other words, if we are not receiving or believing the words of Jesus and we reject them, those words will judge us on the last day.

As for your claim that says that repentance is never spoken of as a work:

Well, in the New Covenant (or New Testament), GOD commands all men everywhere to repent. Meaning, He is telling them to DO SOMETHING (i.e. an action, deed, or work of some kind). Why would GOD have to command us to repent if He gives this to us as some kind of forced like gift upon us?

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

As for your claim that repentance is a gift:

Well, my guess is that you think 2 Timothy 2:25 is teaching that repentance is a gift. Here is the verse:

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" (2 Timothy 2:25).​

So does GOD give in the sense repentance to a person? Yes, but it does not mean what you and or others think it does. This is not talking about how GOD gives a person the ability to repent like in Unconditional Election (Whereby GOD gives us the ability to repent], but this is talking about giving a person the opportunity to repent or seek forgiveness with the LORD.

The Good News Translation says,

"who is gentle as you correct your opponents, for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent and come to know the truth." (2 Timothy 2:25) (GNT).​

Meaning, GOD will allow for a time and or favorable situation for a person to seek forgiveness with the LORD by hearing His Word. GOD will allow for the right moment or opportunity for a person to reconcile with Him by hearing the Bible. GOD will give them this opportunity within their life to hear His Word and repent [seek forgiveness with Him]. But it is still their choice to accept the Lord or not. They still have free will.

I believe "repent" means to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (i.e. the Sinner's Prayer) (To see examples of "repent" fitting best as a prayer to GOD, see: Luke 10:13, Luke 17:3, and Acts of the Apostles 8:22). You have stated before that "repent" means to turn away from sin and to turn to GOD. But you never clearly described what this means in more fuller detail. What does turning to GOD mean? Does it include works? If so, are these works forced upon the believer by GOD because they made a one time decision to accept Christ as their Savior? If so, then why are we told to do the following things within the Scriptures?

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


For we are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

This does not sound like God's good ways are forced upon us after we are saved by God's grace. Yes, we are born again and we are given a new heart with new desires, but that does not mean we do not have free will. We still have to continue in God's grace, continue in the faith, and continue in his goodness. These things take effort and work on our part and they are not granted as some kind of gift from GOD (Whereby we cannot help but to do what is always good).
 
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