2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

mkgal1 · Oct 24, 2019

BABerean2 said:
The Old Testament Passover celebration was a shadow of the New Covenant Last Supper.

The Old Testament feast of Pentecost was a shadow of the New Covenant promise of the Holy Spirit found in John 14:26. It continues today when a person comes to faith in Christ as promised in Luke 3:16, and found fulfilled in Acts 11:15-16, and Ephesians 1:13.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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Right. Fulfilled - not abolished.

BABerean2 · Oct 24, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Right. Fulfilled - not abolished.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, based on the passage below.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Christ is our Sabbath rest for those in the New Covenant.

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BABerean2 · Oct 24, 2019

Ed Parenteau said:
1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

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JLB777 · Oct 24, 2019

mkgal1 said:
You're right - you've said His "appearing" was His birth and His coming is when He gathers the Church, a

I didn’t say that His appearing was His birth.

His appearing is just what it says.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28

JLB777 · Oct 24, 2019

Ed Parenteau said:
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Since every letter and stroke of the law could be kept while the temple stands, and since every letter and stroke of the law could not longer be kept without the temple And since the temple was destroyed in 70AD, therefore the law and therefore heaven and earth passed away right along with the temple.

Isaiah 65:
17"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

20"No longer will there be in it an infant [who lives but a few] days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be [thought] accursed.

23"They will not labor in vain, Or bear [children] for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them.

So, tell us, do these children come about by fornication or marriage?

And by the way, in what age does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb take place?

Rather, you might look at the question the Sadducee's asked with regards to the law and what it meant in regards to inheritance.

The law was instituted and in effect long before the Temple, and was abolished in His flesh on the cross, while the Temple was still standing.

Your point is therefore moot.

JLB

JLB777 · Oct 24, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Not dying and not marrying is only for those who resurrected

If people are still marrying and dying it’s still this age.

Very simple.

The age to come is still future, and occurs after His coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

JLB

Ed Parenteau · Oct 24, 2019

BABerean2 said:
1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

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Since there were three groups of people ie those in Christ who were no longer under the law, those gentiles who did not have the law, and those still under the law. Therefore, those still under the law would be 100% under the law until heaven and earth passed away.

JLB777 said:
The law was instituted and in effect long before the Temple, and was abolished in His flesh on the cross, while the Temple was still standing.

Your point is therefore moot.

JLB

Then your saying heaven and earth passed away at the cross.

mkgal1 · Oct 24, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, based on the passage below.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Christ is our Sabbath rest for those in the New Covenant.

I agree, but I am not sure of why you felt compelled to share that.

JLB777 said:
The law was instituted and in effect long before the Temple, and was abolished in His flesh on the cross, while the Temple was still standing.

Your point is therefore moot.

But Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the Law? Do you believe His plan went off course - or what are you suggesting about that contradiction you've presented?

JLB777 · Oct 24, 2019

Ed Parenteau said:
Then your saying heaven and earth passed away at the cross.

I’m saying “until” happened.

Did Jesus fulfill the law?

JLB

BABerean2 · Oct 24, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I agree, but I am not sure of why you felt compelled to share that.

But Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the Law? Do you believe His plan went off course - or what are you suggesting about that contradiction you've presented?

In Matthew chapter 5 Christ contrasts the higher standard of conduct in the New Covenant to the old standard of the Old Covenant, with the words "But I say..."

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Every day millions of men view online inappropriate contentography and think they are not committing adultery.

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mkgal1 · Oct 24, 2019

BABerean2 said:
In Matthew chapter 5 Christ contrasts the higher standard of conduct in the New Covenant to the old standard of the Old Covenant, with the words "But I say..."

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Every day millions of men view online inappropriate contentography and think they are not committing adultery.

.

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Matthew 22:37-40 ~ Jesus declared, “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ’Love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2019

JLB777 said:
If people are still marrying and dying it’s still this age.

Yet people die after the thousand years is over and that isn't this age.

The age to come is still future, and occurs after His coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

And that's known as the Millennial age. Death and marriage is not forbidden in that age or after it ends. As I said, scripture only says the saved will not die or marry. It does not say that about anyone else and it is not limited to this age as I have proven by showing people dying long after this age and just after a thousand year age:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2019

Ed Parenteau said:
Then your saying heaven and earth passed away at the cross.

Yes they did pass at the cross which is a passing of a Heaven and Earth age, with a new age called the Church age or New Covenant age beginning. That is why he said a jot or tittle could not change from the law until Heaven and Earth passed, and the law did very much change after the cross.

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2019

mkgal1 said:
But Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the Law?

My understanding is that came not to abolish it but fulfill or complete it. When that was finished, it could be legally/morally abolished ie: put away. If it was abolished without being fulfilled that would be like a breach of contract in modern terms and that would be wrong but if fully completed then abolishing or putting it away is proper.

Example:

What does it mean to fulfill prophecy? It means it's completed, done. It's not something to look forward to happening because it already happened and it's great! But, it's done and completed and removed from the list of prophecies that are still to come. Fulfilled prophecy becomes history! Fulfilled law becomes history as well. Christ replaced the old law and covenant with a new law and covenant.

A covenant is like a contract and you can't have two at the same time. One must be finished and put away before a new one can be put in place. That's what was happening at the cross regarding the old covenant and law and the new covenant and law. How Christ fulfilled and completed the first law was to live a life that never broke any of the law. Without that being accomplished we couldn't have received the new covenant and still would have been in bondage to the old.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

BABerean2 · Oct 24, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

When does the fire come?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

When does the judgment of the living and the dead occur?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

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LittleLambofJesus · Oct 24, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, .......time of wrath ........

LittleLambofJesus said:
A member has mentioned Revelation 11:18 in some posts in reference to the future judgement and reward........aka PAROUSIA OF JESUS".
It is a rather fascinating passage with some rather unique Greek words.

I translated Revelation 11:14-18 word for word from an interlinear, using the correct tenses and putting strong's # next to certain words in case members want to look them up.
Please feel free to discuss this.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when? shall these be being,
and what? the Sign of Thy parousia<3952>,
and full-Consummation<4931-5055> of the Age.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

The KJV has "to come" in vs 17.
Revelation 11:17 biblehub

New American Standard Bible
saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were,
because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
King James Bible
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 11:
14 The second woe is passed<565>.
Behold! the third woe is coming swiftly<5035>.
15 And the seventh Messenger trumpets, and there became great voices/sounds in the heaven, saying, ‘became the kingdom of the world<2889> of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall be reigning into the ages of the ages!’
16 And the twenty four Elders, in view of the God, are sitting upon their thrones and fall upon their faces, and worship to the God, 17 saying,
"We are thanking to Thee Lord, the God, the Almighty,
the One being, and and the One was, [and who art coming],
that Thou has taken the great power of Thee and Thou reign.
18
And the nations are wroth<3710>,and came Thy wrath<3709>,
And the time/season<2540> of the dead to be judged<2919>,

And to give the reward/wages<3408> to Thy bond-slaves, the Prophets, and to the Saints,
and to those fearing<5399> Thy name, to the small and to the great
And to destroy/ruin<1311> those destroying/ruining<1311> the land.”

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Millennialism:

Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.

BABerean2 · Oct 25, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Why did you ignore the last sentence in your link from Wikipedia?

Preterism - Wikipedia

"Partial preterism
Partial preterism (often referred to as orthodox preterism or classical preterism) may hold that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 [23] or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.[24][25]

Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were not historically fulfilled."

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JLB777 · Oct 25, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Yet people die after the thousand years is over and that isn't this age.

Jesus defined for us when the next age would begin.

Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Those who have been resurrected from the dead do not die anymore.

That’s the context.

Are you teaching that the resurrection of the dead in Christ is past or future?

JLB

JLB777 · Oct 25, 2019

ewq1938 said:
And that's known as the Millennial age. Death and marriage is not forbidden in that age or after it ends. As I said, scripture only says the saved will not die or marry. It does not say that about anyone else and it is not limited to this age as I have proven by showing people dying long after this age and just after a thousand year age:

Any of the dead in Christ, who have been resurrected, because they attained that age and the resurrection will not die anymore.

Have you died and been resurrected from the dead?

Does your body shine like the sun, and is like Jesus’

Is the resurrection past or future?

JLB

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 25, 2019

JLB777 said:
Jesus defined for us when the next age would begin.
Are you teaching that the resurrection of the dead in Christ is past or future?

JLB

Would make for an interesting thread............

2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"
CCT board

LittleLambofJesus said:
Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?

2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"
Eschatology board

2Tim 2 Hymenaeus and Philetus question
General Theology board

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First, if the common belief of the early church was that the resurrection was to take place at the end of physical universe, then how could have Hymenaeus and Philetus influenced anyone at all? They would have been viewed as crackpots that had lost their minds and no one would have taken them seriously.
Paul would not have wasted the precious words of inspiration on such nonsensical false teachers.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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I love you three.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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