1 Thessalonians 4:14 And 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

Gold fish said:

In 1 Thessalonians 5:10 it says either awake or asleep we will live together with jesus.If we live together with jesus while asleep(dead) then how are we being resurrected?

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Being "awake" (living with Him spiritually) while we physically live (alive on earth) ... or asleep (dormant in the grave, unconscience) waiting for the 1st resurrection that happens when Jesus returns.

We have both.

Baptism is a good example of this. We symbolically die (spiritually) and resurrect with Christ (being made awake) spiritually with Him.

When we die in Him spiritually or physically then we are always with Him.

A person asleep in the grave ... knows nothing ... their next waking moment after death will be their resurrection and will then be both spiritually and physically with the Lord into eternity.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him (believers who have physically died).

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead (in the grave) in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we (believers) who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. (alive with Him being "awake" both spiritually and physically)

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is why Jesus teaches physical death is a sleep ... because it is a temporal state, until He returns and resurrects us.

ewq1938 said:

The only thing in a literal grave is the dead body. It is not sleeping because it is dead. It rots away and is gone. The spirit/soul of a person goes either to heaven or to Hades and no one there is asleep. All the dead are awake and alert and are bodiless until resurrection.

Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.



Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye shall see him, even those that had pierced him though they died long ago. If they were asleep or dead they couldn't witness his return!

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Here John seeing a future event in heaven and he sees the souls of the dead and they are fully alert and talking.

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Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
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The spirit goes to God!

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Jesus IS God. He is eternal. Has always been ... just like the Father.

Luke 23:46
English Standard Version
Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

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The breath of life (sustaining His human life) returned to God.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" Genesis 2:7

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

Only God is immortal. We do not become immortal until Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

Do souls die?

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.

Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal Job 4:17 Only God is immortal 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 . The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

Souls under the alter

In vision, John is projected forward to our time now, a time when one martyrdom has already happened (during the Middle Ages) and a greater one (the Tribulation) is yet to come. The "souls" (persons - Christians) who "would be slain [martyred]" are told to "rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed" Revelation 6:11 Those who have died as martyrs are to continue to "rest" - remain in their graves - compare Acts 2:26-27 - until others, like them, are also martyred. Remember, heaven contains no graves, so this must occur on the earth.

The "souls" - the dead saints - crying "avenge our blood" Revelation 6:10 is similar to Abel's blood - his life, see Leviticus 17:14 - crying to God from the ground Genesis 4:10 Hebrews 11:4 . Since neither blood nor the dead talk Psalm 115:17 Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 , we know that the meaning is not literal. The "souls under the altar," then, is a symbolic picture of the martyrdom of saints.

Again ... nothing about us is immortal until Jesus returns and we are resurrected ... THEN we receive immortality ... until then those who have passed rest in the grave.

Paul sums it up here and is clear about it.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

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Paul, at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, is talking about anointed Christians that have already died. After Christ’s appearance, they will be raised from the dead to a heavenly reward first-as opposed to the anointed Christians still living.

The account at 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 is referencing the same subject but in more detail. It is saying that while anointed ones are still living-in a fleshly condition-they are “absent from the Lord,” but awaiting to be taken immediately when they expire.-1 Corinthians 15:52. Read 2 Corinthians 5:1-5.

ewq1938 said:

The soul and spirit are only in our bodies temporarily so you are wrong on this. When the body dies, the soul and spirit leave.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The soul and spirit go to heaven when the body dies. The other important part of this is the fact that neither soul or spirit remain in a literal grave with the dead body.

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Bible says otherwise as the scripture I previously put forth. A "soul" ... is a person .... the breath of life (breath that sustains us while alive on earth) returns to God. WE ARE NOT IMMORTAL ... no part of us is. We will be resurrected when the Lord returns ... THEN we become immortal. Look at the greek and hebrew.

ewq1938 said:

A soul is also something inside of a person.



That isn't scriptural. The spirit in us returns to God not the breath of life.



That's strawman arguments.

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The breath of life is what sustains our human life. When we die our breath returns to God and we cease to exist our earthly life.

A soul is not something we "possess". Scripture is clear ... when we die our earthly death we wait until the return of the Lord.

How do you ignore all these verses? Do you think in these verses "taking naps" was what was being talked about? The "strawman" a term used when a person really doesn't have a good argument.

Please provide all the verses that states when one dies (earthly death) they go to be in heaven at that time?

If so .... (go to heaven at earthly death) when has judgement occurred?


State of the Dead

Psalm 90:3-6

You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

Job 7:21

"Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10-12

"But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Mark 5:39

And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

Luke 8:52-53

Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

Deuteronomy 31:16

The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12

"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 11:43

And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

1 Kings 14:20

The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 16:6

And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

1 Kings 22:50

And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 14:16

So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 15:7

And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 16:20

So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

2 Kings 20:21

So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 21:18

And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."


John 11:11-14

This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

Acts 7:60

Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Jeremiah 51:57

"I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.


Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust.

Psalm 76:5

The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

Jeremiah 51:39

"When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

ewq1938 said:

That isn't found in scripture. All it said is God breathed and Adam was alive. Nothing says it "sustains" human life. What sustains human life is food and water etc.



That is also not found in scripture. The only thing it does say is the spirit returns to God. Never does it say the breath of life does.




No, the spirit returns to God at death. We also have scripture showing the soul being in heaven after death so we know for a fact the soul and spirit leaves the body and does not stay in a literal grave.



Besides the story Christ told about the Rich man and Lazarus? One went to heaven one went to Hades. Then I already posted these verses:

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The body stays in the grave, but the spirit does not.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


The dead are in heaven and they aren't even asleep in heaven let alone any Earthly grave.



Judgement occurs for the faithful at the second coming. The unfaithful dead, "the rest of the dead" are judged after the thousand years are over, Rev 20.

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*****

If so .... (go to heaven at earthly death) when has judgement occurred?

Judgement occurs for the faithful at the second coming. The unfaithful dead, "the rest of the dead" are judged after the thousand years are over, Rev 20.

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According to what you are claiming .... when one (saved) dies they (their "spirit") goes to heaven .... nobody enters heaven (or "hell" for that matter ) unless they have been judged ... and judgement has taken place before the Lord returns ... then the 1st resurrection happens ... the saved raised & changed.

Paul lines it out quite clearly here what happens.

1st Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus (when Jesus returns) those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

will by NO MEANS PRECEDE

How do you explain Pauls statements ... IF ... when one dies they either to to heaven or hell? He did not say they are in "Abrahams bosom" ... he said they are those who are sleep in death.

Besides the story Christ told about the Rich man and Lazarus? One went to heaven one went to Hades. Then I already posted these verses:

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This is a parable. People don't go to "Abrahams bosom". The overwhelming scriptural evidence (35+ verses) is people wait in the grave (as I previously posted).

Genesis 25


7 Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years. 8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people. 9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite, 10 the field Abraham had bought from the Hittites.[a] There Abraham was buried with his wife Sarah. 11 After Abraham’s death, God blessed his son Isaac, who then lived near Beer Lahai Roi.

No account anywhere about Abraham being resurrected or going anywhere except him being buried in a cave.

"spirit"

SPIRIT Judges. 15:19 Ecclesiastes 12:7 Luke 10:21 .
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word ruach occurs 377 times and is translated "wind ... .. breath," or "spirit" Genesis 8: 1 , "life principle" Genesis 6:17 Genesis 7:22 , "courage" Joshua 2:11 , "vitality" or "strength" Judges 15:19 , "disposition" Isaiah 54:6 , and "moral character" Ezekiel 11:19 .

The "spirit" or "breath" of a person is identical with the "spirit" or "breath" of animals* Ecclesiastes 3:19 . This "spirit" or "breath" of a person returns to God at the time of death, and the body returns to the dust where it came from Job 34:14 ; Ecclesiastes 12:7 . It is also translated "Spirit of God" Isaiah 63:10 . In the New Testament the Greek word pneuma is similarly translated as "spirit" or "to breathe." It is also translated as ,"mood," "attitude," or "state of feeling" Romans 8:15 1 Corinthians 4:21 2 Timothy. 1:7 1 John 4:6 Like ruach, it is sometimes translated "Spirit of God" 1 Corinthians 2:11, 14 Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 2:4 1 Peter 1:12 2 Peter 1:21 .

Neither in the Old Testament nor the New Testament does ruach or pneuma refer to an intelligent entity capable of existence apart from the body

* animals and humans have the same breath. Usage of the hebrew word ruach.

Go into the hebrew and greek for the words ruach and pneuma.

ewq1938 said:

That's what the OT says.

False. The saved are judged at the second coming and are resurrected or changed and raptured. The rest of the dead are judged a thousand years later as per Rev 20. Before these judgments the dead are either in heaven or hades.

Sleep in death means to be dead.

Christ said they do.

Only the dead body is in a literal grave. The spiritual grave where the spirit goes is either heaven or Hades.

I have already proven both soul and spirit are not in the grave with the dead body.

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I have already proven both soul and spirit are not in the grave with the dead body.

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You haven't proved anything .... you put forth interpretation as you understand it ... just as I do.

Job 7:21 (ESV) [10]
…For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be.”

Job 14:12-14 (ESV)
(12) so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

(13) Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

When a person dies, he “lies down” in death and does not rise out of that sleep until his “renewal” at the resurrection. Job’s saying he would be hidden in Sheol (the state of death) makes no sense if he believed that at his death he would be with God in heaven or in a good place.

Psalm 6:5 (ESV)

For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

People who die are not in the presence of God. They are dead in every way, and in the sleep of death do not remember or praise God.

Psalm 49:12, 14 and 15 (ESV)
(12) Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish.
(14) Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning [at their resurrection]. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.
(15) But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah

The “soul” in man is like the soul life in animals. It is not immortal, so it dies when the person dies. Christians who die remain in Sheol (the grave), the state of being dead, until God ransoms us from the grave at the 1st resurrection. At that time God re-empowers our bodies, but not with the soul life we have now.

Psalm 89:48 (ESV)

What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol (the grave) ? Selah


Psalm 115:17 (ESV)
The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

The dead are not in the presence of God praising Him. They are in “silence” until the resurrection.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 and 10 (ESV)

(4) But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the grave), to which you are going.

These verses are very clear. The dead are not celebrating in the presence of God. They are in Sheol, the grave, and there they have no knowledge, no love, no hate, no work, no thoughts, no wisdom.

Daniel 12:1 and 2 (ESV)

(1) “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
(2) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The angel told Daniel that the people who were sleeping in the dust of the earth would awake in the resurrection, of which Scripture tells us there will be two: the Just and the Unjust (John 5:29; Acts 24:15; Rev. 20:5 and 6, 11-15).

John 3:13 (ESV)
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

This verse could not be clearer. By the first century, no one had ascended into heaven.

Acts 2:29-32 and 34 (ESV)
(29) “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
(30) Being therefore a prophet…
(31) he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
(32) This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
(34) For David did not ascend into the heavens…

If David was in heaven, Peter should have said so. Instead, Peter said just the opposite, that David “…did not ascend into the heavens….” His point was not that Jesus was in heaven with a body and David was in heaven without one. His point was that David was dead and Jesus was not.

Ezekiel 37:12-14 (ESV)
(12) Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.
(13) And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.
(14) And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.”

He puts His Spirit in us AFTER we are resurrected and we receive new bodies.

Speaking of those Old Testament Jews who believed, these verses are loaded with truth. Chief among that truth is that the people would know the LORD was God when He opened their graves and raised them up. If people’s “immortal souls” went to heaven when they died, that would be the time they knew the LORD was God, not much later when their bodies were raised.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he (Jesus) appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

When He appears we will be like Him .... not before.

ewq1938 said:

No, I didn't offer interpretation. I offered scripture that says the spirit returns to God, and scripture showing the souls of the dead in heaven. That is proof neither spirit nor soul remain in the grave. Nothing you provided counters those scriptures. All you have is scriptures saying the body is in the grave, or scriptures that speak of Hades or Heaven as a grave for the spirit/soul since that is where the dead dwell until resurrection and judgment. Not one scripture says spirit soul and body all remain in a literal Earthly grave and that is because that isn't correct.

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posted in the wrong place ... sorry

ewq1938 said:

That is speaking of a bodily ascension. That doesn't contradict the verses saying the spirit returns to God and that souls of the dead are in heaven. Scripture cannot contradict scripture. In order to dispute the two verses I am speaking of you would have to address those scripture directly.

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Then what do all those 30 some verses about sleep mean? and specifically 1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.