S.ilvio

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Obviously you have no real idea of the Calvinist perspective of Election. I hope to correct that now.

Calvinists do not believe in simple election, we believe in God's electing love.

Every son of Adam is fallen and a child of wrath by nature, Eph. 2:3. We are not sinners because we sin we sin because we are sinners. Paul tells us that we hate God by nature and cannot even perceive the things of the Spirit because they are foolishness to us. Rom. 1:30, 1Cor. 2:14. Read Paul's description of us all by nature in Rom. 3.

We are all under condemnation and subject to the wrath of God in Adam. Not one of us deserves to be saved and we like it that way. God could justly damn us all to everlasting destruction and damnation. Both the elect and the reprobate are the same in our father Adam, deserving nothing from God but His wrath and justice against our sin. The elect are absolutely no different than the reprobate in their nature and actions before God makes us to know Christ and His salvation through the foolishness of the preaching of the Gospel.

But God, how wondrous are those two little words, in sovereign electing love set His heart on a people and determined, in absolute wisdom and righteousness, to save them. He simply left the rest in their sin and damnation. Those that God set His electing love upon get what they do not in any way deserve, grace, and the rest get exactly what they do deserve. Those chosen in electing love deserve the same as the reprobate in ourselves but being united to Christ we get what He has earned in our place. He loved us with a everlasting love, came and worked out an everlasting righteousness for us and then was made to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

God's electing love does in no way make the believer haughty or proud. It makes us humble and causes us to fall at the feet of the Savior begging mercy. If any are proud because they think they are of the elect it is because they know nothing of the nature of sin nor the state of their hearts. They know nothing of the Gospel.

(Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
I've heard a lot of such wanting cake and eating it from Calvinists for many years.

Now. Does God create men and women knowing they will be denied his Grace and therefore are Hellbound..?
 
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twin1954

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I've heard a lot of such wanting cake and eating it from Calvinists for many years.

Now. Sors God create men and women knowing they will be dried his Grace and therefore are Hellbound..?
God doesn't continue to create men and women. He created Adam and then Eve from Adam's rib. Since that time natural generation occurs. God created Adam very good but he fell in the Garden and plunged us all into sin and damnation. So God doesn't create man knowing they are damned. Your argument is moot and pointless. You are making a false dichotomy.

Do you grasp Rom. 5 at all? The fact that God saves any of us is amazing grace. It is His right to save whom He will without man's free will even in the picture.

Yet He makes us willing in the day of His power. Election is second only to the atonement of Christ as a theme in the Scriptures.

But you are correct that the Scriptures speak to man's unwillingness much more than his ability, though they are very clear on ability. That's because man is without excuse. He wouldn't come if he could. Man loves his sin and will not come to Christ that he might have life. The Scriptures speak much about man's unwillingness and rarely, if ever, apart from a work of God in him and for him, about man's willingness to come to Christ.

Matthew 11:25-30 (KJV) 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

John 5:39-40 (KJV) 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:43-47 (KJV) 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
 
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twin1954

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I've heard a lot of such wanting cake and eating it from Calvinists for many years.

Now. Sors God create men and women knowing they will be dried his Grace and therefore are Hellbound..?
Now I want to remind you that this forum is for asking Calvinsts questions not for debating. If you want to debate go to the appropriate forum.
 
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S.ilvio

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God doesn't continue to create men and women. He created Adam and then Eve from Adam's rib. Since that time natural generation occurs. God created Adam very good but he fell in the Garden and plunged us all into sin and damnation. So God doesn't create man knowing they are damned. Your argument is moot and pointless. You are making a false dichotomy.

Do you grasp Rom. 5 at all? The fact that God saves any of us is amazing grace. It is His right to save whom He will without man's free will even in the picture.

Yet He makes us willing in the day of His power. Election is second only to the atonement of Christ as a theme in the Scriptures.

But you are correct that the Scriptures speak to man's unwillingness much more than his ability, though they are very clear on ability. That's because man is without excuse. He wouldn't come if he could. Man loves his sin and will not come to Christ that he might have life. The Scriptures speak much about man's unwillingness and rarely, if ever, apart from a work of God in him and for him, about man's willingness to come to Christ.

Matthew 11:25-30 (KJV) 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

John 5:39-40 (KJV) 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:43-47 (KJV) 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
So we are not God's creation?

Are you even Calvinist?
 
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S.ilvio

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Now I want to remind you that this forum is for asking Calvinsts questions not for debating. If you want to debate go to the appropriate forum.
The question mark at the end of my sentence denotes the question.

Does God create men and women knowing they will be denied his Grace and therefore are Hellbound..?
 
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JM

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I've heard a lot of such wanting cake and eating it from Calvinists for many years.

Now. Does God create men and women knowing they will be denied his Grace and therefore are Hellbound..?

YES! God created people FULLY KNOWING they would burn in hell for all eternity. What's so difficult with that? Even Catholics believe that.

Are you suggesting God didn't know what He was doing? I've heard this a lot from Catholics and other free will, works based religionists...wanting their cake and eating it to.

hehe

jm
 
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JM

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So we are not God's creation?

Are you even Calvinist?

ARE YOU EVEN CATHOLIC?

“I answer that, It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (I:22:2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (I:22:1 and I:22:2). The end towards which created things are directed by God is twofold; one which exceeds all proportion and faculty of created nature; and this end is life eternal, that consists in seeing God which is above the nature of every creature, as shown above (I:12:4). The other end, however, is proportionate to created nature, to which end created being can attain according to the power of its nature. Now if a thing cannot attain to something by the power of its nature, it must be directed thereto by another; thus, an arrow is directed by the archer towards a mark. Hence, properly speaking, a rational creature, capable of eternal life, is led towards it, directed, as it were, by God. The reason of that direction pre-exists in God; as in Him is the type of the order of all things towards an end, which we proved above to be providence. Now the type in the mind of the doer of something to be done, is a kind of pre-existence in him of the thing to be done. Hence the type of the aforesaid direction of a rational creature towards the end of life eternal is called predestination. For to destine, is to direct or send. Thus it is clear that predestination, as regards its objects, is a part of providence.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Read St. Thomas on Reprobation here.

Whether men are predestined by God?
 
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JM

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The question mark at the end of my sentence denotes the question.

Does God create men and women knowing they will be denied his Grace and therefore are Hellbound..?
Yes, even according to St. Thomas Aquinas.
 
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S.ilvio

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YES! God created people FULLY KNOWING they would burn in hell for all eternity. What's so difficult with that? Even Catholics believe that.

Are you suggesting God didn't know what He was doing? I've heard this a lot from Catholics and other free will, works based religionists...wanting their cake and eating it to.

hehe

jm
Is that God's intention? Create people to populate the puts of Hell..?
 
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JM

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Is that God's intention? Create people to populate the puts of Hell..?

God doesn't act without intention see, once again, St. Thomas's Summa.

It is fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks “free-will” flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it.

Surely it was you, my good Erasmus, who a moment ago asserted that God is by nature just, and kindness itself? If this is true, does it not follow that He is immutably just and kind? that, as His nature remains unchanged to all eternity, so do His justice and kindness? And what is said of His justice and kindness must be said also of His knowledge, His wisdom, His goodness, His will, and the other Divine attributes. But if it is religious, godly and wholesome, to affirm these things of God, as you do, what has come over you, that now you should contradict yourself by affirming that it is irreligious, idle and vain to say that God foreknows by necessity? You insist that we should learn the immutability of God’s will, while forbidding us to know the immutably of His foreknowledge! Do you suppose that He does not will what He foreknows, or that He does not foreknow what He wills? If he wills what He foreknows, His will is eternal and changeless, because His nature is so. From which it follows, by resistless logic, that all we do, however it may appear to us to be done mutably and contingently, is in reality done necessarily and immutably in respect of God’s will. For the will of God is effective and cannot be impeded, since power belongs to God’s nature; and His wisdom is such that He cannot be deceived. Since, then His will is not impeded, what is done cannot but be done where, when, how, as far as, and by whom, He foresees and wills…

I could wish, indeed, that a better term was available for our discussion than the accepted one, necessity, which cannot accurately be used of either man’s will or God’s. Its meaning is too harsh, and foreign to the subject; for it suggests some sort of compulsion, and something that is against one’s will, which is no part of the view under debate. This will, whether it be God’s or man’s does what it does, good or bad, under no compulsion, but just as it wants or pleases, as if totally free. Yet the will of God, which rules over our mutable will, is changeless and sure – as Boetius sings, “Immovable Thyself, Thou movement giv’st to all;” and our will, principally because of its corruption, can do no good of itself. The reader’s understanding, therefore, must supply what the word itself fails to convey, from his knowledge of the intended signification – the immutable will of God on the one hand, and the impotence of our corrupt will on the other. Some have called it necessity of immutability, but the phrase is both grammatically and theologically defective.” – Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will

Don Fortner,

“What multitudes today will be talked into a profession of faith in Christ, and will be convinced that they are Christians, because they have given assent to certain truths revealed in the gospel! Like the deluded three year old babies, they will decide to move from the damned side of the class to the savedside!

Multiplied millions are convinced that they are raising Christian children because they had their children sprinkled with water as babies, and promised to raise them as Christians, or because they have their children in religious schools. And the children, (the poor, deluded sons and daughters of those deluded parents), foolishly imagine that they are Christians because they were raised as Christians!

A decision not to go to hell is not salvation. A choice to accept the doctrine of the gospel is not a new creation. A religious education is not a resurrection from the dead. Morality is not life. Reformation is not regeneration. How many ways can it be said? — Salvation is not something you do for God; but something God does for and in you!

I cannot give you eternal life. Your parents cannot bestow it upon you. And you cannot will or work your way into it. It really is a new creation; and the only Creator is God. “Salvation is of the Lord!” [source]
 
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JM

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Hell glorifies God.
Agreed.

The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous
by Jonathan Edwards



When the saints in glory shall see the wrath of God executed on ungodly men, it will be no occasion of grief to them, but of rejoicing.

It is not only the sight of God’s wrath executed on those wicked men who are of the antichristian church, which will be occasion of rejoicing to the saints in glory; but also the sight of the destruction of all God’s enemies: whether they have been the followers of antichrist or not, that alters not the case, if they have been the enemies of God, and of Jesus Christ. All wicked men will at last be destroyed together, as being united in the same cause and interest, as being all of Satan’s army. They will all stand together at the day of judgment, as being all of the same company.

And if we understand the text to have respect only to a temporal execution of God’s wrath on his enemies, that will not alter the case. The thing they are called upon to rejoice at, is the execution of God’s wrath upon his and their enemies. And if it be matter of rejoicing to them to see justice executed in part upon them, or to see the beginning of the execution of it in this world; for the same reason will they rejoice with greater joy, in beholding it fully executed. For the thing here mentioned as the foundation of their joy, is the execution of just vengeance: Rejoice, for God hath avenged you on her. [source]
 
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S.ilvio

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You guys love talking about Hell from the distance of your grave error on Salvation.

The gates of Hell are there for us all

Unless we repent continually of all our sinful natures.

Yes. Calvinists sin today just as much as Catholics.
 
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Hammster

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You guys love talking about Hell from the distance of your grave error on Salvation.

The gates of Hell are there for us all

Unless we repent continually of all our sinful natures.

Yes. Calvinists sin today just as much as Catholics.
I can’t speak for you, but I’m in Christ. He took the penalty for my sin. So no, the gates of hell are not there for me.
 
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twin1954

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So we are not God's creation?

Are you even Calvinist?
We are God's creation by natural generation. He created Adam and we are in Adam. Read Rom. 5. But your false dichotomy sets up an idea that we are each created by God individually.
 
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twin1954

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The question mark at the end of my sentence denotes the question.

Does God create men and women knowing they will be denied his Grace and therefore are Hellbound..?
There is a huge difference between asking a question because you want to know and understand the answer and asking because you want to debate the answer. Yours is obviously the second.
 
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twin1954

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You guys love talking about Hell from the distance of your grave error on Salvation.

The gates of Hell are there for us all

Unless we repent continually of all our sinful natures.

Yes. Calvinists sin today just as much as Catholics.
You do err, not knowing the Scriptures.
 
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S.ilvio

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I can’t speak for you, but I’m in Christ. He took the penalty for my sin. So no, the gates of hell are not there for me.
So you can sin as much as you like, unrepentantly, with no penalty?

Wow...
 
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