Understanding saying from St. Joseph the Hesychast

AMM · Oct 23, 2019

I came across this passage on Pravmir.
Source: The Mythological Lies of the Modern Era | A Russian Orthodox Church Website

Elder Joseph would ask me, “My child, do you know what I do?”

“What do you do, my father?”

“I sit down and take inventory each day.”

“What type of inventory?”

“I sit and examine myself; I look at my shortcomings. What do I give into? What passion has a hold on me? My conscience tells me. The compass indicates, ‘you are weak here.’ And so, I make the resolution to fight against this passion the following day. Another day it will point to something else. I will battle that passion as well. In this manner, as I fight the various passions, I see a gradual improvement. Our forefathers used to say, ‘Work during your youth, so you can have something in your old age.’”

“What does this mean, Geronda?”

“This is what it means my child: now while you are young, fight against the passions; fight against your evil thoughts; fight against the imagination; struggle to fulfill your obedience; exert yourself with things you find difficult; sweat and pray during the night. All these labors and struggles are ‘work’; they constitute work years. Later, when the body grows weak and no longer has the strength to take up arms, when you are old and have worked during the years that God has allotted for you, then He will give you a pension. Depending on your skill and position, you will receive an analogous pension. What is this pension? It is the grace of God.

“If you were to ask me now, for example, I will respond, ‘Within me, my child, I feel Paradise. The Prayer runs like clockwork; grace abounds. I do not sense a single passion active within me. There is not a trace of any passion; I do not experience any warfare; I do not have any evil thoughts; I do not sense any passionate uprising.’ All these are not recent accomplishments; they are the fruits of my labors from my youth. That is when everything took place. Now the just reward has come.”

Specifically, I'm wondering about the last paragraph. When I first read it, it seemed like pride or delusion to me. It seems to be a very different sentiment than that expressed by other saints, especially someone like Abba Sisoes:

When St Sisoës lay upon his deathbed, the disciples surrounding the Elder saw that his face shone like the sun. They asked the dying man what he saw. Abba Sisoës replied that he saw St Anthony, the Prophets, and the Apostles. His face increased in brightness, and he spoke with someone. The monks asked, "With whom are you speaking, Father?" He said that angels had come for his soul, and he was entreating them to give him a little more time for repentance. The monks said, "You have no need for repentance, Father" St Sisoës said with great humility, "I do not think that I have even begun to repent."

Can one really say what St Joseph the Hesychast says? That prayer is running perfectly, he's filled with grace, there are no passions, no evil thoughts, etc. And that they are fruits of his labors. That he has a just reward.

Anyone got an explanation for me to help understand this? I came across it a few weeks ago and meant to ask for clarification but then I forgot until this week when St Joseph was officially canonized.

danielmears · Oct 23, 2019

AMM said:
I came across this passage on Pravmir.
Source: The Mythological Lies of the Modern Era | A Russian Orthodox Church Website

Specifically, I'm wondering about the last paragraph. When I first read it, it seemed like pride or delusion to me. It seems to be a very different sentiment than that expressed by other saints, especially someone like Abba Sisoes:

Can one really say what St Joseph the Hesychast says? That prayer is running perfectly, he's filled with grace, there are no passions, no evil thoughts, etc. And that they are fruits of his labors. That he has a just reward.

Anyone got an explanation for me to help understand this? I came across it a few weeks ago and meant to ask for clarification but then I forgot until this week when St Joseph was officially canonized.

It sounds like he has done his spiritual work and now has harmony, contentment. Glory to God, I find that quite wonderful...

ArmyMatt · Oct 23, 2019

yes, you can attain that in this life. it's not pride if it's true.

archer75 · Oct 23, 2019

I guess we wouldn't know about it if everyone who attained it refused ever to speak about it, ever.

AMM · Oct 23, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
yes, you can attain that in this life. it's not pride if it's true.

interesting, I feel like I've just heard so often - don't look at yourself, don't praise yourself, if you think you've done something good then ignore your thoughts, etc. That it seemed a bit off to me.

archer75 said:
I guess we wouldn't know about it if everyone who attained it refused ever to speak about it, ever.

Good point. Who are some of the other saints that spoke about this in their own lives?

archer75 · Oct 24, 2019

AMM said:
interesting, I feel like I've just heard so often - don't look at yourself, don't praise yourself, if you think you've done something good then ignore your thoughts, etc. That it seemed a bit off to me.

Advice is given to a general audience, and the vast majority of people are, I guess, in a condition where that kind of advice is better...

ArmyMatt · Oct 24, 2019

AMM said:
interesting, I feel like I've just heard so often - don't look at yourself, don't praise yourself, if you think you've done something good then ignore your thoughts, etc. That it seemed a bit off to me.

but you're not praising yourself if what you say is simply true.

and St Joseph was someone who practiced humility all his life.

-Sasha- · Oct 24, 2019

AMM said:
interesting, I feel like I've just heard so often - don't look at yourself, don't praise yourself, if you think you've done something good then ignore your thoughts, etc. That it seemed a bit off to me.

I suppose if throughout your life, you've achieved a watchfulness where you're able to pay close attention to each thought and inclination that enters into your mind & honestly evaluate them and battle against what ought not be there... Then you may very well have a time where you can be attentive and recognize that there are not any passions active at that moment, but only prayer. Elder Joseph did struggle with pride at times during his life, and came to recognize (with help from God) the damage this passion was doing to his soul. He meditated on this constantly after recognizing it in himself, and struggled for humility. I think it's very important to take the sayings of the Saints in full context.

AMM · Oct 24, 2019

Is this sorta the same as when St Paul writes “For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted” (1 Cor 4:4) or “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness” (2 Tim 4:7-8)?

JohnTh · Oct 25, 2019

AMM said:
When I first read it, it seemed like pride or delusion to me.

A typical reaction - however it isn't like this.

It is how the Grace works: it can work as in the case of St. Sisoes or St. Silouan when the Grace focused the saints on their nothingness. Or it can work like in the case of St. Joseph where the Grace in that moment focused them on the all-power and the sweetness of the Grace.

In such moments the one which is under the Grace cannot do anything else because he is enslaved by this sweetness.

There are some cases in which someone experiences paradoxically (in a limited intensity) both states.

~Anastasia~ · Oct 27, 2019

Nothing to add really - I like this thread.

I know at times (especially in the first 2-3 years of becoming Orthodox) I was quite confused by certain seeming contradictions and questions like this. I'm not saying I have all the answers btw (far from it) but there is wonder in the fact that God works in different ways suited to the person, that we sometimes grow differently, and that at different times different persons need very different advice. I guess that's one huge benefit of having wise direction.

AMM · Oct 27, 2019

JohnTh said:
A typical reaction - however it isn't like this.

It is how the Grace works: it can work as in the case of St. Sisoes or St. Silouan when the Grace focused the saints on their nothingness. Or it can work like in the case of St. Joseph where the Grace in that moment focused them on the all-power and the sweetness of the Grace.

In such moments the one which is under the Grace cannot do anything else because he is enslaved by this sweetness.

There are some cases in which someone experiences paradoxically (in a limited intensity) both states.

Thanks, that's helpful just to see/hear that it can be different for different people. Makes sense, too, that it would not be identical experience for everyone

~Anastasia~ said:
Nothing to add really - I like this thread.

I know at times (especially in the first 2-3 years of becoming Orthodox) I was quite confused by certain seeming contradictions and questions like this. I'm not saying I have all the answers btw (far from it) but there is wonder in the fact that God works in different ways suited to the person, that we sometimes grow differently, and that at different times different persons need very different advice. I guess that's one huge benefit of having wise direction.

yeah, for sure. I guess that's why we are supposed to have a spiritual father and listen to his advice - he can help us and the Holy Spirit works through him to teach us in our specific circumstances what we need to hear

JohnTh · Oct 29, 2019

AMM said:
Thanks, that's helpful just to see/hear that it can be different for different people. Makes sense, too, that it would not be identical experience for everyone

~Anastasia~ said:
God works in different ways suited to the person, that we sometimes grow differently, and that at different times different persons need very different advice

Sure, because we are all different limbs of the same Adam.

Our aim is the same - to become God-like - but simultaneously different.

= We must be one but keep our specificity. =

Understanding saying from St. Joseph the Hesychast

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