do you believe ufos are demons flying?

renniks said:

But where is the physical evidence for aliens?

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I thought the issue was ufo's. I gave a simple way for anyone to go out and discover and record them for themselves in the night sky. Ufo's, not explanations.

Kaon said:

You say creation itself is proof enough - I could say you have abysmal standards for proof. Creation doesn't prove a god exists any more than it proves it evolved from its own footprint.

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Science doesn't work without a first cause. There is no logic involved in saying that everything evolved from nothing. As for the rest, lets see the physical evidence then. There is literally billions of people with cell phones, surely someone has a nice clear picture of an alien.

timothyu said:

I thought the issue was ufo's. I gave a simple way for anyone to go out and discover and record them for themselves in the night sky. Ufo's, not explanations.

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I must have missed it, what is the simple way?

renniks said:

There is literally billions of people with cell phones, surely someone has a nice clear picture of an alien.

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There are hundreds of thousands of photos of Ozzy Osbourne.

renniks said:

Science doesn't work without a first cause.

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The limitations of our minds bound the operation of the first clause. It is as good as our first assumption - which is based on logic and reason. We do not investigate scientifically without formal logic, and/or reason.

There is no logic involved in saying that everything evolved from nothing.

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All three major fields of science involve very intricate equations that insinuate this very thing. Even if they are completely wrong, it still came from a scientific investigation - logic and reason. As I said, we limit our own thinking by logic and reason.

As for the rest, lets see the physical evidence then. There is literally billions of people with cell phones, surely someone has a nice clear picture of an alien.

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If you really want to know, you should look for yourself - research it with an open mind, and let the truth fall however it does. You can also ask your Father to show you insight on this. There is plenty you can do, but continuously claiming it is ludicrous won't get you any closer to the truth.

No one can convince you of anything, because you are an adult.

renniks said:

I must have missed it, what is the simple way?

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post #93

"they swear there was an accident back in '47
Little man with a great big head
Splattered down from heaven
Government conspiracy; cover-ups and lies
Hidden in the desert under endless skies
Well, it's a cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold
Post, postmodern world
No time for heroes, no place for good guys
No room for Rocky The Flying Squirrel
They're not here, they're not coming
Not in a million years
Turn your weary eyes back homeward
Stop your trembling, dry your tears
You may see the heavens flashing
You may hear the cosmos humming
But I promise you, my brother
They're not here, they're not coming...

To this garden we were given
And always took for granted
It's like my daddy told me, "You just bloom where you're planted."
Now you long to be delivered
From this world of pain and strife
That's a sorry substitution for a spiritual life."

I think Don Henley hit it on the head here, a fascination with aliens is a sorry substitution for spiritual life.

No, since demons are spirits, and therefore invisible.

lambofgod43985889 said:

or not

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What UFOs? Most unidentified flying objects are simply aircraft or natural phenomena of some sort. It's unlikely that Southwest 1430 is being flown by demons, although I'm less certain about Delta. If we're talking about flying saucers, then no, because there aren't any. Not much profit in arguing whether flying saucers are flown by demons or little green men when there aren't any flying saucers.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

So then, if it is Unidentified, what is it ?

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Airplanes, usually.

Dave-W said:

As a deception.

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To deceive people into believing that demons don't fly commercial?

AvisG said:

No one - no one - believes the UFO phenomena can be explained by spy planes and natural phenomena like sunspots.

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Delete the words "spy" and "like sunspots", and that's precisely what I believe. UFOs are entirely identifiable, all of them. Just because they aren't identified doesn't mean they're magic. I say that they all can be identified if they were available for proper observation.

Could they be truly unknown natural phenomena - an unknown lifeform (e.g., ultra-terrestrials), an unknown manifestation of human psychology (e.g., the Jungian collective unconscious), unknown forces of nature? Sure, just as they could be demons, angels, aliens or interdimensional visitors.

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I'm invoking Occam's Razor and betting that none of those things is involved. I'm betting they're all mundane objects and or phenomena. Not much fun to be had there, but that's most likely to be the truth.

We don't have to understand what UFOs are to know that a phenomenon exists. You are simply demonstrating that you have no grasp of the history or complexity of the phenomenon.

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The phenomenon is simply explained - people see things in the air that they can't identify. It doesn't mean that the things they saw were unidentifiable, it means they couldn't identify them. Spooky-tooth "explanations", of space men or demons or whatever, are probably hogwash.

renniks said:

Sure, but to expect one to believe without evidence is silly. I believe in God because of faith plus evidence. The creation itself is proof enough. What others have basically been doing on this thread is telling me that because other people have supposedly seen things that are unexplainable, UFOs are real. Ok, but I need something a bit more concrete than, he said, or she said that they saw something, to even take it seriously. I can see everything that God created. But where is the physical evidence for aliens?

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As a Christian, you should believe in angels and demons.
If you believe in demons you should not rule out that a UFO or alien encounter was with a demon. Although most likely it was natural phenomena, mental health or drug hallucinations, but demons should not be ruled out.

Words on a forum won't convince anyone. Reminds me of Thomas.
John:20-25
The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

Jipsah said:

I say that they all can be identified if they were available for proper observation … I'm invoking Occam's Razor and betting that none of those things is involved. I'm betting they're all mundane objects and or phenomena. … The phenomenon is simply explained - people see things in the air that they can't identify."

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You've given us nothing but seemingly uniformed personal opinions. Why would we care what you're "betting" if you don't know what you're talking about? Do you have any experience, knowledge or expertise in this subject area?

It apparently doesn't trouble you that precisely no one today who is knowledgeable about the phenomenon agrees with you. We're talking about sane and credible experiencers by the millions, scientists and academics, law enforcement, military - no one (not to mention photographs that have withstood all scientific scrutiny, radar returns that defy known physics, and physical traces consistent with what multiple witnesses reported at the time). I don't think I've heard anyone express sentiments such as yours since Donald Menzel and Philip Klass, who are both long dead but were essentially paid professional debunkers.

"All mundane objects"? "Simply explained"? I don't think so. More significantly, those with the vast depth of knowledge of J. Allen Hynek, Jacques Vallee and Jerome Clark don't think so.

The puzzle to me is why people say things such as this when they clearly aren't knowledgeable about what is a complex, multi-faceted phenomenon and their uninformed opinions are completely at odds with the opinions of those who are far better informed and more qualified. What's the point? What you are doing is pretty much exactly what atheists do with believers: "I may not know anything about Christianity, but I do know it's all nonsense and only credulous dummies believe it."

BTW, I think you misunderstand Occam's Razor. The point of Occam's Razor is that explanations should not be made unnecessarily complicated. All things being equal, the least-complicated explanation is to be preferred - but isn't inevitably correct. When the best evidence demands a more complex explanation, that one must be preferred. Simply saying what you're saying here isn't "invoking Occam's Razor." You're not addressing the evidence at all - more like putting your head in the sand. There is nothing inherently simpler about your pseudo-explanation ("all mundane objects," which is clearly incorrect anyway) than demons, aliens or any of the other speculation that has been offered.

"Demons" would be quite a simple and straightforward explanation that actually fits much of the evidence quite nicely and is entirely consistent with Christian theology. But the UFO phenomenon really isn't a good candidate for Occam's Razor - it's too complex and multi-faceted for any explanation to be identified as the "simplest" or "least unnecessarily complicated" one.

coffee4u said:

As a Christian, you should believe in angels and demons.
If you believe in demons you should not rule out that a UFO or alien encounter was with a demon. Although most likely it was natural phenomena, mental health or drug hallucinations, but demons should not be ruled out.

Words on a forum won't convince anyone. Reminds me of Thomas.
John:20-25
The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

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Of course I believe in angels and demons. Yes I'm a doubting Thomas when it comes to little green men visiting us. I don't rule anything out, I would just need more evidence to believe demons are pretending to be flying saucers.

coffee4u said:

If you believe in demons you should not rule out that a UFO or alien encounter was with a demon.

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To the same extent that you believe that the green Chrysler in the turning lane may be being driven by a demon. No particular reason to believe either to be true, no matter how badly the Chrysler is being driven.

The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

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People seem to keep saying that if we believe in Christ we ought also to believe in flying saucers driven by either spacemen or demons. As well to say that if we believe in Christ we should also believe in kelpies, elves, Barsoomians, banshees, and what have you. That's silly.

Jipsah said:

To the same extent that you believe that the green Chrysler in the turning lane may be being driven by a demon. No particular reason to believe either to be true, no matter how badly the Chrysler is being driven.

People seem to keep saying that if we believe in Christ we ought also to believe in flying saucers driven by either spacemen or demons. As well to say that if we believe in Christ we should also believe in kelpies, elves, Barsoomians, banshees, and what have you. That's silly.

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You forgot to mention Leprechauns.

No I do not suspect UFO's, if such exists, are demons flying. In any case we don't know what they are if they exist.

What may be if they exist, is God's race of angels or simply advanced alien entities in our universe and if so more likely to be advanced machines that are essentially immortal thus able to cross vast expanses of the universe rather than organic life. I do subscribe to panspermia but not creation of the universe and life as interpreted by traditional religious dogma so the hypothesis of intelligent aliens beyond Earth with or without God holds credible consideration.

Note my science oriented perspective does not subscribe to Bible inerrancy and infallibility, multi-universes, god is on another plain of existence, time travel, precognition, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, miracles like magic. I do lean towards an understanding of God as the ultimate intelligent entity of the universe but not with unlimited powers or knowledge.

The existence of aliens is likely more probable than the existence of angels or demons but, to me, all probabilities are vanishingly small.