The day of the Lord

joshua 1 9 said:

This is in Matthew ch 24 when Jesus is asked two questions when will the temple in Jerusalem be tore down and when will He return. One is a shadow and a type of the other and He talks about both events at the same time.

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And the bible teaches this interpretation ... where?

And where does scripture teach that the temple being torn down is a "Day of the Lord" event?

DavidPT said:

How is it even remotely possible to misinterpret Zechariah 14? Either one believes what the text plainly states, that there will be survivors from among the nations that came against Jerusalem, or one doesn't believe what the text plainly states. In order for Zechariah 14:16-19 to even be fulfilled, it requires that all nations have already came against Jerusalem, and that the LORD God has already come, and all the saints with Him, and that verse 12 has been fulfilled. Clearly none of these things have been fulfilled yet, which obviously means Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming.

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Let's look at Zechariah 14:8

And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Are those living waters not a present reality today?:

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” John 7:38

I'm not still waiting for the fulfillment of that Which Christ already has fulfilled for us, are you?

Have you not drank from those Living Waters?
I have, and I thirst for them no more. John 4:14

The "That day" of Zechariah 14, according to Christ Himself, arrived during His earthly ministry.. Any interpretation of Zechariah 14 that disregards this Biblical fact must be rejected by the Honest Bible expositor.

The Living Waters of Zechariah 14:8 are a present FULFILLED reality. It is not some pie in the sky future thing/event we are still waiting for.

Unless perhaps you assert that the Living waters presently available in Christ are INFERIOR to some future Living waters unfulfilled?

parousia70 said:

Let's look at Zechariah 14:8

And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Are those living waters not a present reality today?:

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” John 7:38

I'm not still waiting for the fulfillment of that Which Christ already has fulfilled for us, are you?

Have you not drank from those Living Waters?
I have, and I thirst for them no more. John 4:14

The "That day" of Zechariah 14, according to Christ Himself, arrived during His earthly ministry.. Any interpretation of Zechariah 14 that disregards this Biblical fact must be rejected by the Honest Bible expositor.

The Living Waters of Zechariah 14:8 are a present FULFILLED reality. It is not some pie in the sky future thing/event we are still waiting for.

Unless perhaps you assert that the Living waters presently available in Christ are INFERIOR to some future Living waters unfulfilled?

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I tend to think Zechariah 14:8 is referring to the following for one.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

As to my point about Zechariah 14:16-19 though, that can't be fulfilled until after all nations have come against Jerusalem, which no one should disagree about that. Zechariah 14:16-19 can't be fulfilled before the Lord God has come, and all of the saints with Him. Zechariah 14:16-19 can't be fulfilled before Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled. None of the above has been fulfilled yet.

DavidPT said:

Clearly none of these things have been fulfilled yet, which obviously means Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming.

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Who is the "tabernacle" in the New Covenant?

What is the "feast" that was celebrated at the Last Supper, and which many church bodies celebrate on a regular basis.

Is the passage from Zechariah at the Second Coming, or is it many years after the Second Coming?

Can you get your interpretation of the Old Testament to agree with the words of Jesus, and Paul?

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joshua 1 9 said:

Science tells us that there have been 6 extinctions where 90% of life was destroyed and 10% remained to repopulate the world. The most recent was 12,990 years ago when the saber tooth tigers and wholly mammoths went extinct. I establish the date using the nano-diamond comet. Of course to science 13,000 years do not amount to much. If 90% of mankind was to be killed in a nuclear war that would be a part of the extinction event that began with the global warming that began when the last ice age came to an end. I actually have a plaster saber tooth tiger skull. It was out in the shed and the cats attacked it and broke it. One of these days I am going to glue it back together again.

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Peter gave a description of the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3 (WEB):

8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

BABerean2 said:

Who is the "tabernacle" in the New Covenant?

What is the "feast" that was celebrated at the Last Supper, and which many church bodies celebrate on a regular basis.

Is the passage from Zechariah at the Second Coming, or is it many years after the Second Coming?

Can you get your interpretation of the Old Testament to agree with the words of Jesus, and Paul?

.

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Can you in turn get your interpretation of the NT to agree with Zechariah's words in Zechariah 14? If the timing of Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming, clearly these can't be meaning the saved that have put on immortality at the last trump. That makes them unsaved and mortals then. How does Amil explain these post the 2nd coming? Premil can easily explain these post the 2nd coming, the fact there is a rebellion after the thousand years.

DavidPT said:

Can you in turn get your interpretation of the NT to agree with Zechariah's words in Zechariah 14? If the timing of Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming, clearly these can't be meaning the saved that have put on immortality at the last trump. That makes them unsaved and mortals then. How does Amil explain these post the 2nd coming? Premil can easily explain these post the 2nd coming, the fact there is a rebellion after the thousand years.

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Because Christ defined the New Covenant "tabernacle", and celebrated the New Covenant "feast" at the Last Supper, I have to interpret the Old Testament passages through Him.

If you can get the words of Jesus, and Paul, to agree with the words of Zechariah and still hold onto your Premil doctrine, then good for you.
I could not.

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BABerean2 said:

Because Christ defined the New Covenant "tabernacle", and celebrated the New Covenant "feast" at the Last Supper, I have to interpret the Old Testament passages through Him.

If you can get the words of Jesus, and Paul, to agree with the words of Zechariah and still hold onto your Premil doctrine, then good for you.
I could not.

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Let me put it this way then. If Zechariah 14:16-19 wasn't even meaning post the 2nd coming, problem would be solved in that case. But if it is meaning post the 2nd coming, then there is a problem with your interpretation and not mine. You're the one that needs to explain how Jesus can destroy all of the unsaved at His coming, leaving nothing but immortal saints, then there still being these unsaved survivors in Zechariah 14:16-19 post the 2nd coming. Where I come from that sounds like a contradiction, and not something that is squaring in both testaments.

DavidPT said:

Let me put it this way then. If Zechariah 14:16-19 wasn't even meaning post the 2nd coming, problem would be solved in that case. But if it is meaning post the 2nd coming, then there is a problem with your interpretation and not mine. You're the one that needs to explain how Jesus can destroy all of the unsaved at His coming, leaving nothing but immortal saints, then there still being these unsaved survivors in Zechariah 14:16-19 post the 2nd coming. Where I come from that sounds like a contradiction, and not something that is squaring in both testaments.

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What did Zechariah see in his vision?
Let us look at it, and compare it to the New Covenant "tabernacle", and "feast".
(Christ) (Lord's Supper)


Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(This sounds like the greatest earthquake in history found in Revelation chapter 16. It also moves all of the islands, and destroys all of the mountains, and the cities of the nations fall.)

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(This sounds like the waters of life found in Revelation 22:1.)

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.


Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(Is this the earthly city of Jerusalem, or the one found above, promised to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?)

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(This sounds like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, when Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.)

Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(If those who oppose God, and Christ, are destroyed in the battle above, why would anyone think the people in this verse are not believers?)


Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(This refers back to those earlier in the passage. What happens to those who do not partake of the "feast of tabernacles", which is most likely a reference to the New Covenant, and the Lord's Supper? The plaque is what happens to those people who reject Christ.)


Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(These were those who rejected Christ's "feast of tabernacles", and received the plague.)

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(All of the unbelievers were destroyed by the plague earlier in the passage.)

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Would Zechariah have completely understood the New Covenant, and the Lord's Supper, as we understand it today?

Luk_22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Joh_6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

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joshua 1 9 said:

People talk about the 'day of the Lord' in Joel. Yet we are told that Joel was written almost 3,000 years ago. There was 'a day of the Lord' that took place when Babylon conquered Jerusalem. Even when they were working on the temple mount they found arrowhead from that invasion around 500 bc. Also there was a 'day of the Lord' in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was scattered to the nations. If this is not enough there is talk about a future day of the Lord that has not happened yet. That can not happen until the end of the final harvest. As the Good New of Jesus is going to be taken to the ends of the world one more time for this generation. Even there are people that say this will be the greatest time to be alive as this is going to be the greatest move of the Holy Spirit during this dispensation.

One thing I wonder about is all the isolated events that if you are living there at the time would seem a whole lot like the day of the Lord for them. Recently Paradise California was destroyed. Was that not the day of the Lord if you lived in Paradise? Sometimes disaster is very close but somehow they get though it. Like the Oroville Dam Crisis that came so close to disaster but was avoided when they managed to repair enough of the damage to keep the dam from breaking.

Perhaps this is why we are told that there are archetypes in the Bible and when a pattern is established this can be repeated at different times and different places. Joel is the first to talk about this day of the Lord, even if the event did not happen for 500 years. So is there going to be a day when the entire world will be destoryed. Or is the day of the Lord just an isolated event that could strike anyone, anywhere, anytime.

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The Day of the Lord is THE DAY God's Wrath/Judgment starts, it covers the final 1260 days of the 70th week. It starts with the First Seal basically, even though it is ANNOUNCED at the 6th Seal and lasts through the 7th Vial, some people think it also incorporates the whole 1000 year reign of Christ Jesus on earth. The First Seal through the Sixth Seal all happen almost simultaneously on day 1261, which means there is 1260 days left just like Daniel 12 says, when the holy peoples are Conquered {power taken from them} there will be a time, times and half [time] until these Wonders End {Second Coming}. Rev. 12 shows us the time, time and half time is the same as 1260 days. So on day 1261 of the 70th week {the 1260} the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast. Seal 1, 2, 3, 4, are just Jesus releasing him to go forth Conquering over a 42 month period, and taking peace over 42 months, which starves mankind for 42 months, which brings death and the grave over a 42 month period. Seal 1-4 and 5 are opened within minutes of each other, Seal #5 is the Testimony of the Martyrs whom will be killed during this time. A few minutes later the 6th Seal is opened and God's Wrath is announced, all on day 1261, 1260 days from the Second Coming.

Then we get the Trumps and Vials which all come forth out of the 7th Seal. The DOTL is God's Judgments on Mankind over a 3.5 year period.

joshua 1 9 said:

People talk about the 'day of the Lord' in Joel. Yet we are told that Joel was written almost 3,000 years ago. There was 'a day of the Lord' that took place when Babylon conquered Jerusalem. Even when they were working on the temple mount they found arrowhead from that invasion around 500 bc. Also there was a 'day of the Lord' in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was scattered to the nations. If this is not enough there is talk about a future day of the Lord that has not happened yet. That can not happen until the end of the final harvest. As the Good New of Jesus is going to be taken to the ends of the world one more time for this generation. Even there are people that say this will be the greatest time to be alive as this is going to be the greatest move of the Holy Spirit during this dispensation.

One thing I wonder about is all the isolated events that if you are living there at the time would seem a whole lot like the day of the Lord for them. Recently Paradise California was destroyed. Was that not the day of the Lord if you lived in Paradise? Sometimes disaster is very close but somehow they get though it. Like the Oroville Dam Crisis that came so close to disaster but was avoided when they managed to repair enough of the damage to keep the dam from breaking.

Perhaps this is why we are told that there are archetypes in the Bible and when a pattern is established this can be repeated at different times and different places. Joel is the first to talk about this day of the Lord, even if the event did not happen for 500 years. So is there going to be a day when the entire world will be destoryed. Or is the day of the Lord just an isolated event that could strike anyone, anywhere, anytime.

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The Day of the Lord is judgment. Paradise, CA did not go through judgment. Judgment will happen on the "Last Day" when all will be resurrected.

Daniel 12
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

The day of the Lord, is not just one day at the end of the world. It's the day of reckoning that happens in the life of God's elect. Go and read what happens to Job....it's all about what happens to God's elect on the day of judgement....spiritually speaking, not literally.


Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

BABerean2 said:

What did Zechariah see in his vision?
Let us look at it, and compare it to the New Covenant "tabernacle", and "feast".
(Christ) (Lord's Supper)


Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(This sounds like the greatest earthquake in history found in Revelation chapter 16. It also moves all of the islands, and destroys all of the mountains, and the cities of the nations fall.)

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We would be in agreement here.

BABerean2 said:

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(This sounds like the waters of life found in Revelation 22:1.)

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We would be in agreement here as well.

BABerean2 said:

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.


Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(Is this the earthly city of Jerusalem, or the one found above, promised to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?)

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It would mean the new Jerusalem. But not in the here and now spiritually, but in the NHNE literally. IOW this speaks of the next age post the 2nd coming, IOW the everlasting age.

BABerean2 said:

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(This sounds like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, when Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.)

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We would be in agreement here as well.

BABerean2 said:

Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(If those who oppose God, and Christ, are destroyed in the battle above, why would anyone think the people in this verse are not believers?)

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If the timing is meaning post the 2nd coming, how is it even logical they can be believers? Do you think immortal believers will be under the threat of being punished with plagues for refusing to come up to Jerusalem? And not only that, it would have to mean for forever it will be like this. But if one places a thousand years and a little season at the beginning of the everlasting age, this problem goes away entirely. Plus, instead of something nonsensical, that these are immortal believers, they are unsaved mortals instead.

BABerean2 said:

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(This refers back to those earlier in the passage. What happens to those who do not partake of the "feast of tabernacles", which is most likely a reference to the New Covenant, and the Lord's Supper? The plaque is what happens to those people who reject Christ.)


Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(These were those who rejected Christ's "feast of tabernacles", and received the plague.)

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(All of the unbelievers were destroyed by the plague earlier in the passage.)

.........................................

Would Zechariah have completely understood the New Covenant, and the Lord's Supper, as we understand it today?

Luk_22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Joh_6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

.

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If the timing of Zechariah 14:16-19 is post the 2nd coming, none of what you proposed above makes any sense of the texts involved, if that were the case.

DavidPT said:

I tend to think Zechariah 14:8 is referring to the following for one.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

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Ok.. so in your view there will be no fulfillment of Living Waters until AFTER the Millennium is over and the New earth is here?

Then what Living Waters OT scripture do you believe Jesus was claiming he fulfilled in John 7:38?

parousia70 said:

Ok.. so in your view there will be no fulfillment of Living Waters until AFTER the Millennium is over and the New earth is here?

Then what Living Waters OT scripture do you believe Jesus was claiming he fulfilled in John 7:38?

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Even though I'm premil, I see the thousand years being part of the NHNE. IOW it would be the first thousand years of it. There are some problems with this view though, that I'm still trying to iron out. I'm convinced the NHNE occur at the beginning of Christ's return, and I'm convinced there is a thousand year period following Christ's return. I could just switch to Amil since that position also has the NHNE occur at the beginning of Christ's return, but then I'm presented with a whole lot of things that can't fit with Amil. Such as Zechariah 14:16-19. If that's meaning post the 2nd coming, it can't fit Amil, but it can fit Premil. Because clearly these in Zechariah 14:16-19 can't be meaning saved believers. Saved believers would not be in opposition to Christ. Clearly these in Zechariah 14:16-19 would be in opposition to Christ if they might refuse to come up like commanded.

DavidPT said:

We would be in agreement here.



We would be in agreement here as well.






It would mean the new Jerusalem. But not in the here and now spiritually, but in the NHNE literally. IOW this speaks of the next age post the 2nd coming, IOW the everlasting age.




We would be in agreement here as well.



If the timing is meaning post the 2nd coming, how is it even logical they can be believers? Do you think immortal believers will be under the threat of being punished with plagues for refusing to come up to Jerusalem? And not only that, it would have to mean for forever it will be like this. But if one places a thousand years and a little season at the beginning of the everlasting age, this problem goes away entirely. Plus, instead of something nonsensical, that these are immortal believers, they are unsaved mortals instead.






If the timing of Zechariah 14:16-19 is post the 2nd coming, none of what you proposed above makes any sense of the texts involved, if that were the case.

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Is the "feast" described in the passage the New Covenant feast of the Lord's Supper, or is it an Old Covenant feast?

Is the "tabernacle" in the passage a rebuilt temple in earthly Jerusalem, or is it the New Covenant temple of Jesus Christ?

Which interpretation makes sense based on Matthew 26:28, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Colossians 2:16-17, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Paul said the feasts were a shadow of Christ. There is only one New Covenant feast, which is the Lord's Supper.

When Christ returns, will the emphasis be on keeping Old Covenant feasts, or will it be on the Son of God?

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DavidPT said:

You're the one that needs to explain how Jesus can destroy all of the unsaved at His coming, leaving nothing but immortal saints, then there still being these unsaved survivors in Zechariah 14:16-19 post the 2nd coming. Where I come from that sounds like a contradiction, and not something that is squaring in both testaments.

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How then do you square the continued existence of the Immoral, dogs, sorcerers, adulterers and those who practice Lying, just outside the gates of the New Jerusalem in the New earth:

Revelation 22:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

And How do youe square the fact that the Nations are in need of perpetual healing there, and the passing of time able to be marked by Months??

Revelation 22:
2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

And how do you square the continuing existence of Human Procreation, Ageing, Vocations, the need for Shelter, the need to plant and eat food, Sinners and Death in the New heavens and earth period as Isaiah testifies?

Isaiah 65:
17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

20“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

parousia70 said:

And how do you square the continuing existence of Human Procreation, Ageing, Vocations, the need for Shelter, the need to plant and eat food, Sinners and Death in the New heavens and earth period as Isaiah testifies?

Isaiah 65:
17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

20“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

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Those outside are in hell.
See Matthew 25:31-46.

Revelation 22:15

(CJB) Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

(ESV) Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

(Geneva) For without shall be dogges and enchanters, and whoremongers, and murtherers, and idolaters, and whosoeuer loueth or maketh lies.

(Greek NT TR) εξω δε οι κυνες και οι φαρμακοι και οι πορνοι και οι φονεις και οι ειδωλολατραι και πας ο φιλων και ποιων ψευδος

(GW) Outside are dogs, sorcerers, sexual sinners, murderers, idolaters, and all who lie in what they say and what they do.

(LITV-TSP) But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving a lie, and making it.

(KJV) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

(KJV+) ForG1161 withoutG1854 are dogs,G2965 andG2532 sorcerers,G5333 andG2532 whoremongers,G4205 andG2532 murderers,G5406 andG2532 idolaters,G1496 andG2532 whosoeverG3956 lovethG5368 andG2532 makethG4160 a lie.G5579

(NKJV) But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

(NLT) Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

(YLT) and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

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Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Do we still have crying today?

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.


Verse 20 begins with a negative statement. Nothing that comes after will be found in the New Heavens, and the New Earth.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
(Act_2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.)

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

We find the removal of the curse in the last verse.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

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If we are now living in the eternal New Heavens, and New Earth, what happens when the sun runs out of Hydgrogen fuel?

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BABerean2 said:

Verse 20 begins with a negative statement. Nothing that comes after will be found in the New Heavens, and the New Earth.

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So what do you do with the double negatives then?

There shall be no more They shall not build, they shall not plant, They shall not labour in vain,

There shall be no more NOT building, NOT planting, NOT Labouring?

BABerean2 said:

If we are now living in the eternal New Heavens, and New Earth, what happens when the sun runs out of Hydgrogen fuel?

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Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

I'm fully confident God can supply our sun with perpetual hydrogen Fuel as He desires.