the work of God and OSAS are they exclusive of each other

You skipped questions in the following and chose to change the subject instead of giving direct answers, and that's fine but it tells us all something. More importantly, please ask yourself why you skipped them?

And what do you make of the following, are we obligated to do good and not evil in order to not be condemned to Hell or are we released from that once saved?

***********

Who is bragging? You just made yourself co-redeemer it’s in both your hands is about as bragging as you can do dressing it up like your claim is humility and righteousness when the truth is you rob the Lord of part of His Glory.

Being obedient to God is still a good thing and no one is bragging about it. Honestly, you've been duped, and are following what you have been taught, not the bible You repeat what others claim, those who have chosen to try to make others feel guilty for doing the right thing...a common trick of Satan. I "make myself" nothing, I only try to do what is required by the Father...be obedient. The questions you skipped showed we must do things/have a hand in it all, and your answer to them would have made wrong what you are telling me here, but you couldn't have that so you simply changed the subject. It's easy to see that is an absolute fact, that is, unless one has been blinded, and it's too late for them.

To make it even more simple, "Do" good, go to heaven, do evil and don't. We must "do", it's right there in Jesus's own words, and there is no way one can honestly interpret something so simple any other way, the very reason you skipped it and changed the subject. You saw what Danial C tried to do with it, so at least you only changed the subject instead of doing the same.

OSAS is a much easier way, the very reason so many like it, just that simple. Once one gets caught up in it enough, it's near impossible to get the to see the truth, just one reason teaching it is so dangerous. It's very sad when people can no longer see, but it's our own fault, because we wanted something easy over Gods word, and to make things worse, it gets taught over gods word, then, IMO, God gives those that do, over to reprobate mind. Yet we still try to keep them from going down.

On a completely different note:

I understand you just don't know how yet but it's difficult to reply to your posts the way you are posting, especially because I'm color blind. If you will highlight that which you wish to reply to, you will get a "quote" option under the highlighted. Once you have selected and click "quote" for all you wish to reply to, go to the bottom of the page, and click on insert quotes (or whatever it states) Once inserted you can reply underneath each one separately (just see how out posts appear)

Hope that helps and if you have any questions just ask

redleghunter said:

Where does the text indicate they were "Christians?" There were no Christians when Jesus spoke those words and there is no indication who Jesus is talking about are His chosen who are then unchosen and punished. You have injected that idea into the text.

What the text plainly indicates is that not everyone who proclaims the Name of the Lord are His sheep.


You are making that up. And there is no theological Reformed term "OSAS." That is a made up term as well. It is called the perseverance of the saints and preservation of the saints. As in:

Romans 8: NASB

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Where in the text does it indicate those were Christians? Are you kidding? The text reads they are performing ceremonial religious acts in the name of Christ? Do you know anyone that does that who is not claiming to be a Christian?

You yourself claimed them false teachers didn't you? Well they are not teaching Buddhism if they are teaching in the name of Christ. WAKE UP, and stop presenting illogical arguments in attempts to prove your point.

God predestined SOME OF US, to his kingdom because he sees the future. He saw what we did and will do before we were born. Your teaching that you just admitted is not named in scripture harms others, preventing some from being God's elect, because you teach our actions have nothing to do with our salvation. THAT'S A LIE. It's proven wrong by the whole Bible. I suggest you stop teaching it.

The idea to just believe in Christ, as we usually understand the meaning of belief, and then we are saved because of his death is a lie. The demons believe in Christ in the way that word believe is usually used. Scriptures teach it means do Christ's will. Now that you've seen those there is no excuse for you to continue that teaching. For it is against Christ's will. MATTHEW 7:15-27

I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating: The objection to Eternal Security is really just a symptom of a larger issue. What's really being objected to is, ultimately, salvation by Grace Alone through Faith Alone.

James Murphy said:

I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating: The objection to Eternal Security is really just a symptom of a larger issue. What's really being objected to is, ultimately, salvation by Grace Alone through Faith Alone.

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I don't believe what is objected to is salvation by grace. At least I haven't read anyone's statement on this site claiming that. Salvation by grace and accountability to God are two entirety separate issues in scripture. Merging them and claiming accountability before God doesn't exist because we are saved because of his undeserved kindness is apostasy, as it teaches against scripture. God gave us 1300 or so written pages to make the message clear that we are accountable for our actions to him.

Speaking for myself only, as a participant, my objection to your teaching OSAS is stated in my post directly above here. Precisely it is not taught in scripture, and it is harmful in that it keeps some from receiving salvation because it claims Christians can live as THEY see fit. It is what Satan told Eve.

Woke said:

Where in the text does it indicate those were Christians? Are you kidding?

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I kid you not.

Woke said:

The text reads they are performing ceremonial religious acts in the name of Christ?

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I agree there is some "performance" involved.

Woke said:

Do you know anyone that does that who is not claiming to be a Christian?

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Yes they are claiming to belong to Christ. That's the point. Jesus says He never knew them. So they are not His sheep.

Woke said:

God predestined SOME OF US, to his kingdom because he sees the future.

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It is true Almighty God YHWH created time, space and matter and is Master over His Creation and can see beginning to end in time because, Alas, He created all. However, the Scriptures do not teach God 'peers' into the future and sees us accepting Him and then choosing us. In fact the Scriptures teach otherwise. God chose His elect before the foundations of the earth. To indicate God chooses us because sometime in the future we choose Him 'first' would make God respond to our actions. Which in effect robs God of His Glory and Sovereignty.

James Murphy said:

I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating: The objection to Eternal Security is really just a symptom of a larger issue. What's really being objected to is, ultimately, salvation by Grace Alone through Faith Alone.

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No, because I believe in both of those and not in eternal security.

redleghunter said:

The term OSAS no of course not. However the Scriptures testify that those who God chooses to be His people, when they have sinned they are led to repentance and restored. I gave two examples above.

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From the 1689 conf of faith;
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;

and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

ICONO'CLAST said:

From the 1689 conf of faith;
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;

and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

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Those who find themselves objecting to this truth above find themselves in the same condemnation as those Paul condemned in the book of Galatians

redleghunter said:

I kid you not.


I agree there is some "performance" involved.


Yes they are claiming to belong to Christ. That's the point. Jesus says He never knew them. So they are not His sheep.


It is true Almighty God YHWH created time, space and matter and is Master over His Creation and can see beginning to end in time because, Alas, He created all. However, the Scriptures do not teach God 'peers' into the future and sees us accepting Him and then choosing us. In fact the Scriptures teach otherwise. God chose His elect before the foundations of the earth. To indicate God chooses us because sometime in the future we choose Him 'first' would make God respond to our actions. Which in effect robs God of His Glory and Sovereignty.

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You present a lot of points that are off topic. But the one admission you did make denies your teaching OSAS. BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE THEY ARE HIS SHEEP AS MUCH AS YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE. CHRIST CLAIMS THEY ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T FOLLOW GOD. NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN SALVATION IS GIVEN BY GOD'S GRACE. You might keep posting off topic points. But your fundamental argument is destroyed by your own admission. Again I urge you to stop teaching it.

ICONO'CLAST said:

From the 1689 conf of faith;
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;

and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

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You're quoting a document made up by fallible men.
Why would I accept it over the scripture?

renniks said:

No, because I believe in both of those and not in eternal security.

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So you believe in temporary or temporal salvation?

MDC said:

Those who find themselves objecting to this truth above find themselves in the same condemnation as those Paul condemned in the book of Galatians

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Yes.

Galatians 3: NASB

1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed ascrucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Woke said:

You present a lot of points that are off topic. But the one admission you did make denies your teaching OSAS. BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE THEY ARE HIS SHEEP AS MUCH AS YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE. CHRIST CLAIMS THEY ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T FOLLOW GOD. NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN SALVATION IS GIVEN BY GOD'S GRACE. You might keep posting off topic points. But your fundamental argument is destroyed by your own admission. Again I urge you to stop teaching it.

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It’s not off topic. Jesus told His disciples the tares would grow along with the wheat until the harvest.

redleghunter said:

So you believe in temporary or temporal salvation?

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I don't care what you call it. I believe we are eternally secure as long as we are in the faith. But there's too much scripture about apostasy to just dismiss it. Obviously one can be truly saved and then fall into error and unbelief, and forfeit their salvation.

renniks said:

I don't care what you call it. I believe we are eternally secure as long as we are in the faith. But there's too much scripture about apostasy to just dismiss it. Obviously one can be truly saved and then fall into error and unbelief, and forfeit their salvation.

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So you only see loss of salvation with regards to apostasy? If you want, you can post for me your exegesis of the Hebrews passages you have in mind.

redleghunter said:

It’s not off topic. Jesus told His disciples the tares would grow along with the wheat until the harvest.

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So you should know not to contribute to making people tares by teaching their salvation isn't dependent on their own personal behavior. The fact that you admit there are wheat and weed Christians growing right alongside each other shows you know that. Because if salvation was not dependent on a Christian's individual behavior there would be no tares. All Christians would be saved.

The false prophets of Matthew 7 are lawless because their teachings contribute to lawlessness in others as much or even more than in themselves.

Saved by grace does not excuse Christians from following Christ. Following Christ means obedience to him and his father.

Look, I know some Christians know they are saved, because God has shown that to them. Paul was one of those. He was also the main Bible writer who wrote to us about saved by grace instead of works-see Romans and Galatians. But he also wrote about the necessity of obeying Christ-see Corinthians.

Also, when Paul wrote he was writing first to Christians that were like him, those who had their salvation made sure. There were some at that time that didn't. Today there are many more of this second group. If they believe all they need to do is believe in Christ, in the way believe is usually meant, then, in their minds, they believe they could practice sin without consequence. So it's not God's will that we teach OSAS, even if that applies to us, and we know it because God has told us. It doesn't apply to all Christians. And we teach to help the ones needing salvation, not those who have obtained it. Since they are mixed in with us, we need to be careful about letting our words appear as if the Bible is giving them license to sin even if that's not what we meant.

I know we are saved by grace. Even the legalistic Christians, which I am not, know that. But saved by grace doesn't give license to sin.

Woke said:

So you should know not to contribute to making people tares by teaching their salvation isn't dependent on their own personal behavior.

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Is our justification before a Holy God based on our personal behavior?

Woke said:

Look, I know some Christians know they are saved, because God has shown that to them. Paul was one of those. He was also the main Bible writer who wrote to us about saved by grace instead of works-see Romans and Galatians. But he also wrote about the necessity of obeying Christ-see Corinthians.

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Indeed. We are to obey our King Jesus. That is very clear. Paul and Peter both exhorted the faithful to live holy lives and to walk as Jesus walked. Paul also says the will of God is our sanctification.

renniks said:

You're quoting a document made up by fallible men.
Why would I accept it over the scripture?

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The numbers on the bottom, are scripture verses?

maybe thats why?
look here;
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62

redleghunter said:

Is our justification before a Holy God based on our personal behavior?

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redleghunter said:

Is our justification before a Holy God based on our personal behavior?

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We are saved due to God's (the Father's and Son's) actions but only if we accept their invitation. And God makes no one do that. He does not stop us from dying due to our own actions, as free moral agents. People are here on Earth now to learn that. Because God wants the saved to fully understand, and appreciate fully, why everyone is not saved, especially since every Christian has relatives who are not. Professing to be a Christians does not make one part of Christ's church; and if that cannot make one part of his church neither can it keep one a part of his church. No one is justified unless they follow Christ. And since we are free moral agents all Christians have the privilege, according to God's will, to start and then stop, if they choose.

Yes some people know they will not stop. Some Christians were shown that by God. But all Christians do not know that, and God has not contacted all Christians. All the weeds didn't start out deciding to be weeds and claiming Christianity only as a pretense. Christ's invitation opened the door to all people who are living to be justified before God, not just present Christians. Yet all people aren't. Why? If it was as easy as only claiming Christianity, why wouldn't everyone do it, even non believers, as a backup plan since it is literally impossible to prove God nonexistent? The reason all people do not do that is because teachings in the Bible make people aware God requires much more than just claiming to believe in Christ.

All that to say, Christ opened the door for us to be justified before God. But if we don't continue to follow him we are not. Just like he does not come into the lives of those who don't invite him, he doesn't stay with those who choose not to follow him. It is Christ , the judge, that makes the determination of who can walk with him, and under what circumstances they can. Even the Father lays no restriction on his decisions about that. The book of John presents Christ's primary message as, "Follow me" (Christ). No one is justifies, sanctified, or set apart, without doing that.

From Romans 6:
1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? 3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. 7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. 10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin control your mortal body so that you obey its desires. 13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.


15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness. 21What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.