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Redwingfan9

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I'm post-mil. I am such because the great commission makes no sense but for Christ returning victorious over sin and death, which Revelations clearly teaches. That and it's pretty clear that Satan is bound in Rev. 20 and that 1000 years isn't literal. It merely means a long timer period.
 
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His student

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But Jesus said that no one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13
Actually, you are mistaken. He didn't say that at all.

You are reading into the verse something that clearly isn't there. Nor can you logically show what you say is true from applying logic to the verse.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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if you read the new covenant promised in Jer 31 and match it up with Jesus day indeed we can agree that the old covenant is no more and the new one Jesus made in His blood is established. With this in agreement I can point to the error where you are taking the wrong fork in the road. Jer 31 says the new covenant is replacing the one made with Israel when they were taken from Egypt. The covenant with Abraham for the land was unconditional covenant and the one with Moses was conditional. Jer 31 states in it the Israel will never cease to be a nation in Gods eyes as long as the sun and moon endure. That is followed up by God declaring
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD. The heavens cannot be measured so the LORD is saying He will not cast off Israel for all they have done.
There is no mistake that the LORD in prophecy understood that Israel would reject Jesus and He would be the sacrifice for all mankind. God also knew that 70 AD was around the corner and the it would appear Israel had ceased to be a nation. There is an obvious purpose to placing these statements in this exact place in scripture. This idea that they will still be a nation is followed up by a prophecy of the city Jerusalem being rebuilt again after a time when the dead bodies are all around and it will not be thrown down ever again.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.” The context of this chapter destroys the notion that the church is now Israel in prophecy. The thing you have right is those who are born again are spiritual Israel and at the end of the 1000 years it will truly be only spiritual Israel that enters the new Jerusalem.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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I'm post-mil. I am such because the great commission makes no sense but for Christ returning victorious over sin and death, which Revelations clearly teaches. That and it's pretty clear that Satan is bound in Rev. 20 and that 1000 years isn't literal. It merely means a long timer period.
Satan is bound when the LORD comes and not bound until after the battle of Armageddon. The two witnesses need to arrive and this one who was the beast needs to have a false prophet rise up along side of him. In every account of the the 2nd coming Jerusalem is being overrun and the then the LORD comes and saves and that is the onset of the kingdom. If Satan is bound why is the world acting as it is? Where is the everlasting righteousness and the rod of iron that Jesus is to rule with? He certainly won't need a rod of iron when the new Jerusalem comes as it will be inhabited only by those who have no more a corrupt nature.
 
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rockytopva

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Pre-Trib

I do enjoy the cruise. In recent years people are getting more fanatical on passports. It used to be they did not check you before entering neighboring countries. I can imagine that there will be some type of identification that they will want to put on our hand where they can swipe, as one swipes a passport, and they will let you in. I can imagine the mark first being on the hand for travel, and then for purchases. This will be required in the coming decades, it looks about 20 years off...

Pre-Trib...

1. The mark is not that far off
2. I cannot imagine us being able to survive without it
3. Christ says his coming will be unannounced
 
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BABerean2

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if you read the new covenant promised in Jer 31 and match it up with Jesus day indeed we can agree that the old covenant is no more and the new one Jesus made in His blood is established. With this in agreement I can point to the error where you are taking the wrong fork in the road. Jer 31 says the new covenant is replacing the one made with Israel when they were taken from Egypt. The covenant with Abraham for the land was unconditional covenant and the one with Moses was conditional. Jer 31 states in it the Israel will never cease to be a nation in Gods eyes as long as the sun and moon endure. That is followed up by God declaring
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD. The heavens cannot be measured so the LORD is saying He will not cast off Israel for all they have done.
There is no mistake that the LORD in prophecy understood that Israel would reject Jesus and He would be the sacrifice for all mankind. God also knew that 70 AD was around the corner and the it would appear Israel had ceased to be a nation. There is an obvious purpose to placing these statements in this exact place in scripture. This idea that they will still be a nation is followed up by a prophecy of the city Jerusalem being rebuilt again after a time when the dead bodies are all around and it will not be thrown down ever again.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.” The context of this chapter destroys the notion that the church is now Israel in prophecy. The thing you have right is those who are born again are spiritual Israel and at the end of the 1000 years it will truly be only spiritual Israel that enters the new Jerusalem.


If you were correct about the land promise to Israel, the passage below would not be in the Bible.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Paul does not try to disconnect faithful Israel from the Church, in the passage below.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



James did not try to disconnect faithful Israel from the Church in the passage below.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.



 
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Brian Mcnamee

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If you were correct about the land promise to Israel, the passage below would not be in the Bible.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Paul does not try to disconnect faithful Israel from the Church, in the passage below.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



James did not try to disconnect faithful Israel from the Church in the passage below.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.


the Jews certainly did miss out on the promises in that day. there are hundreds of promises remaining to be fulfilled. Ezekiel 36-38 Isaiah 61 many many more show the same nation who missed out and were scattered do indeed receive the promises. Where it is was said you are not my people you shall be called sons of the living God.
This is accomplished at the 2nd coming when the LORD comes and delivers Israel this is described in Dan 7, Zech 14 and Rev. all of them have this deliverance at the 2nd coming and from that time on life continues and Israel is given the new heart promised in many other places.
 
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Douggg

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It's a false doctrine. But published making it a fact the top dogs propagated it.
Dave, are you saying that the pre-trib view is false because it mandates a pre-trib (70th week) timing?

Or because you think a pre-trib (70th week) rapture is not possible at all?
 
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Dave L

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Dave, are you saying that the pre-trib view is false because it mandates a pre-trib (70th week) timing?

Or because you think a pre-trib (70th week) rapture is not possible at all?
Because NT scripture places the rapture on the last day after the resurrection.
 
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keras

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Your main problem is in determining who Israel is. If God removed the unbelievers from Israel in Romans 11, into whom are those who later accept Christ (believe) reattached to if they are Israel?
Scripture is clear, ethnicity has nothing to do with who is a child of God. Ephesians 2:11-18, Romans 1:29
The only prophesied thing to happen to the Jewish State of Israel, is their virtual demise, Isaiah 22:14 and only a Christian remnant will survive.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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There is only one bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead found in John 5:27-30, and 2 Timothy 4:1.

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Including this one? Post Trib, Pre Wrath?

Revelation 11:11 And after the three days and half days, a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and great fear falls upon the ones observing them. 12 And they hear a Voice great out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!" And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....
 
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Blade

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Hey JM.. gonna skip the part where I know I'm right and then debate lol. Not sure if I can give top 3 reasons. I don't like to just narrow it .. I like to widen it so to speak. Christ coming in the flesh.. return. I think it all fits in this. I've always came away from reading as He can come any moment. The simple "we that remain". "WE" was Paul and all those right there and then. I never get the "it has to happen PRE MID POST". I can't find that verse. I can SEE how some get there but its always adding to His word.. speculating to some degree. On the same note.. I have read the "1800"... this gets really old. Its know but why some will not search more.. but a man that wrote hymns and preached in 300-400ad.. I saw the scroll read it (not in my hands lol) where he wrote about us being caught up before the great trib.

That proves? NOTHING. Just they did in fact write and believed that Christ would come before the great tribulation. For me thats NOT the word and it for me does not prove it. I wait on Him every moment I walk this earth. This is how I believe He wants us to be. Always watching always ready. As if always thinking watching for Christ is a bad thing. To hope in a day I was never promised.. foolish for me. Sorry didn't want to make this about caught up. Words talking spelling.. not easy for me.

And He comes.. nations gathered..sheep and goats.. then we are with Him for about 1000y (some words not in the bible blah blah blah). Satan loosed.. for a short time. Side note. PLEASE someone ask GOD what a short time is for Him. Well Jesus told us when JOHN was alive "I come quickly".

All comes down to "Scripture". Has to be written. And not how I FEEL or what the masses believe. And always praying Father if I am wrong in ANYTHING change me 1st. Always willing for HIM to be right and me wrong. Always looking up.. I will never miss Him
 
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BABerean2

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Including this one? Post Trib, Pre Wrath?

Revelation 11:11 And after the three days and half days, a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and great fear falls upon the ones observing them. 12 And they hear a Voice great out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!" And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....

Based on Revelation 1:20 (candlesticks), and Romans 11:24 (olive trees), the two witnesses are a symbol of the New Covenant Church.

The event occurs at the Second Coming of Christ, which is also described in Revelation 11:15-18.


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Dave L

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So in your view, there will be only one resurrection of the dead?
Both the wicked and the righteous on the last day in the second resurrection. The first resurrection happens as a result of the New Birth that places believers in Heaven when they die.
 
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Douggg

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Both the wicked and the righteous on the last day in the second resurrection. The first resurrection happens as a result of the New Birth that places believers in Heaven when they die.
Of those two resurrections, when does the 1Thessalonians4:13-18 resurrection/catching up of the living take place?

Your view of the first resurrection happens when?
 
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Douggg

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There is only one bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead found in John 5:27-30, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
What about all the other verses in the new testament regarding resurrections and changing of the living? How do those prove only one bodily resurrection?
 
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BABerean2

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What about all the other verses in the new testament regarding resurrections and changing of the living? How do those prove only one bodily resurrection?


Either Jesus, and Paul were confused, or your interpretation of those other passages is wrong.

.
 
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