the work of God and OSAS are they exclusive of each other

redleghunter

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You didn't prove anything about it. You falsified the statement. You took something the scripture claims those people did, they claimed they did works for God, and then you claimed the scripture says Christ killed them for putting their trust in that. That was a lie. The scripture says Christ killed them only because they were lawless, while they were not listening to his voice or his father's voice. I suggest you make your points without deception.
MATTHEW 7:21-27
REVELATION 22:11-15
Sure let’s put the passage in the proper context. Which is false teachers.

Matthew 7:


15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’​


God says He never knew them. Who is that? False teachers who performed things they attributed to the works of God.
 
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redleghunter

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The scripture does not read he killed them for that. Either wake up or get honest. If you are honest quote that scripture for all readers yourself and point out exactly in it why Christ says they are judged.
He did not say He was killing them. He said depart from Me. Meaning this is the condemnation and eternal separation and punishment.
 
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redleghunter

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But, you failed to answer my questions. Does being dead to sin mean you can't sin? Of course not. Does being dead in sin mean we can't respond to the Holy Spirit's call? Of course not.
Why do we have to stand firm? Because, going back to trying to be saved by works would mean that Christ is of no use to us. Over and over in this Chapter, Paul emphasizes our freedom, but you keep saying we are slaves and have no such freedom. And if this didn't include the freedom to fall away, why warn us against falling back into living by the flesh?

Roman 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why the constant admonitions to live by the Spirit if the Spirit has made us a slave and we can't do otherwise?
It’s your turn. You quoted a verse without context. I want to see the context you seem to be pointing at.
 
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redleghunter

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Why the constant admonitions to live by the Spirit if the Spirit has made us a slave and we can't do otherwise?
Because before becoming a new creation we cannot live by the Spirit. The regeneration is the freedom. And Paul calls that freedom being a slave to righteousness.
 
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redleghunter

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Roman 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I believe you meant Galatians 5:19. Here's the entire chapter presented so you can make your point.

Galatians 5: NASB

1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
 
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redleghunter

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Falling away is also a choice. A bad one, but one we can make.
Point out where the text includes falling away. How do you quantify this? Is there a possible return or a done deal once 'falling away?' Do you consider some sins as 'falling away' and others not yet 'falling away.' Where can we find in the NT the explicit teaching on falling away? What does it look like. What's supposed to happen if we do? Or is it any sin at any time of the day? Does it mean we completely deny Christ and the Gospel?

I guess the million dollar question is "when does a pastor or church know when a congregant has 'fallen away?' And do these sins have to be physically manifested or just the thought of them?
 
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renniks

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Because before becoming a new creation we cannot live by the Spirit. The regeneration is the freedom. And Paul calls that freedom being a slave to righteousness.
That makes zero sense. He was talking to Christians, telling them to live by the Spirit, so they don't fall into error, not unregenerate people.
 
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renniks

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Point out where the text includes falling away. How do you quantify this? Is there a possible return or a done deal once 'falling away?' Do you consider some sins as 'falling away' and others not yet 'falling away.' Where can we find in the NT the explicit teaching on falling away? What does it look like. What's supposed to happen if we do? Or is it any sin at any time of the day? Does it mean we completely deny Christ and the Gospel?

I guess the million dollar question is "when does a pastor or church know when a congregant has 'fallen away?' And do these sins have to be physically manifested or just the thought of them?

I never claimed anything but unbelief causes falling away. I think you have me confused with someone preaching works salvation. When Paul says that Christ will be of no use to you if you go back to the law, that is one warning that we can fall away from Christ into believing that we save ourselves by works. When Paul warns of the sins of the flesh causing us not to inherit that kingdom, that is another warning that we can sin ourselves into the loss of our faith. Again, I'm not saying the sins themselves are our doom, but that they can lead us to a place where we no longer hear the Spirit, and begin to doubt, and doubt leads to unbelief. We see this all the time. Christian kids go off toe college, get too busy and too caught up in a new environment where God is just a vague concept, and they become atheists or agnostic. It's not that they weren't ever saved, it's that they failed to remain in the vine and that cost them their faith.
 
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redleghunter

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That makes zero sense. He was talking to Christians, telling them to live by the Spirit, so they don't fall into error, not unregenerate people.
He is speaking to the church in Rome in Romans 6. Which we know from Christ's own parables would be an admixture of wheat and tares. However, yes he is speaking of those who are regenerated. Before becoming new creations we do not have the Holy Spirit. What Paul is making clear here is we either serve one master or the other. Christ is Savior indeed and Lord indeed. With Christ as Lord we are slaves in Christ. Meaning doing what He commands us. The freedom Paul speaks of in Romans 6-7 is from the condemnation of the Law.

Romans 6: NASB

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
 
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redleghunter

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I never claimed anything but unbelief causes falling away.
Good because unbelief in the Person of Christ as our sacrifice for sins and source of Righteousness (God's own Righteousness that is) is exactly what defines an unbeliever. Someone who is not a new creation in Jesus Christ.
 
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redleghunter

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When Paul warns of the sins of the flesh causing us not to inherit that kingdom, that is another warning that we can sin ourselves into the loss of our faith.
I see your logic here, I do. But would not that sinning be showing what we truly trust? Parable of the soils come to mind. Only one soil was prepared to receive the seed to produce abundances. One had no chance, the others harbored a good feeling and excitement but was not suitable soil for producing an abundance.

I think we have had over 100 years of an easy-believism type of 'conversion experience' where many are claimed to be 'saved' by saying a few words. I can't argue against a sinners prayer because repentance is clearly part of the "ordo salutis", and whether one uses Psalm 51 or a Biblically solid 'sinners prayer', just saying it is not going to force God's Hand. That is why the regeneration, or the new creation is the assurance to Christians they are children of God.

So I guess we can discuss that. Meaning what you wrote above my response would be that one who 'loses faith' or stops 'believing' (I'm not speaking of periods of doubt, I think everyone goes through those times to various degrees) would be to point to the parable of the soils and see if the ground the seed fell upon was ever going to produce abundance and then look at:

1 John 2: NASB

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
 
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renniks

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I see your logic here, I do. But would not that sinning be showing what we truly trust? Parable of the soils come to mind. Only one soil was prepared to receive the seed to produce abundances. One had no chance, the others harbored a good feeling and excitement but was not suitable soil for producing an abundance.

I think we have had over 100 years of an easy-believism type of 'conversion experience' where many are claimed to be 'saved' by saying a few words. I can't argue against a sinners prayer because repentance is clearly part of the "ordo salutis", and whether one uses Psalm 51 or a Biblically solid 'sinners prayer', just saying it is not going to force God's Hand. That is why the regeneration, or the new creation is the assurance to Christians they are children of God.

So I guess we can discuss that. Meaning what you wrote above my response would be that one who 'loses faith' or stops 'believing' (I'm not speaking of periods of doubt, I think everyone goes through those times to various degrees) would be to point to the parable of the soils and see if the ground the seed fell upon was ever going to produce abundance and then look at:

1 John 2: NASB

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
Thanks for another passage that proves my point. First, those that went out from among us, were not of us at the Time. It doesn't say they were never of us.
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Another verse warning us to hold onto the truth. "If" indicates that it is possible not to abide in Christ. Suppose I tell you," if you paddle this boat correctly, you will not capsize." You would surely assume that it was possible to capsize if you did something really dumb.
 
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redleghunter

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Why read into the text what is not there.
Thanks for another passage that proves my point. First, those that went out from among us, were not of us at the Time. It doesn't say they were never of us.
The text says: "but they were not really of us" which is clear they were not really of us and he gives proof of this as them going out. There is no "at the time" in the text nor even suggested.

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Another verse warning us to hold onto the truth. "If" indicates that it is possible not to abide in Christ. Suppose I tell you," if you paddle this boat correctly, you will not capsize." You would surely assume that it was possible to capsize if you did something really dumb.

Again, it's concrete and not ambiguous. The text as you quote it above says "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

It does not say if it abides in you and you somehow lost it. Again very concrete, an "either or" when compared to other Scriptures brings us back to whether or not 'what abides' was received in the first place. Remember the soils...only one was prepared to accept the seed and produce an abundance.


Suppose I tell you," if you paddle this boat correctly, you will not capsize." You would surely assume that it was possible to capsize if you did something really dumb.

But the point is "IF" you have a boat to begin with.

 
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Woke

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Sure let’s put the passage in the proper context. Which is false teachers.

Matthew 7:


15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’​


God says He never knew them. Who is that? False teachers who performed things they attributed to the works of God.
So you prove that point I made, which is not as important as your statement disproves OSAS. Christ doesn't just say they were false teachers, he also specifically claims they did not do the will of his father, neither did they obey Christ's words. Now if all that was because they were only false CHRISTIAN teachers so be it. You just agreed with scripture that Christ rejects them, though they are Christian, because they sinned by being a false teacher. That proves the works of a Christian can get him rejected, even though in his mind he serves God and is saved. Those thinking that here clearly were not saved. They were rejected due to their behavior.

The FACT they die, though they are Christian teachers, believing in God, proves your teaching OSAS is dangerous. Because the message you are spreading informs Christians if they believe they are saved because they are Christian then God's grace saves them.

If you qualified your statement by stating God does not accept some Christians practicing sin who feel they are saved you would be in harmony with scriptures.

Not doing so I hear you guys as teaching, become a Christian, believe in Christ, that he can save us, and he does save us, without making any qualifications on Christians other than believing Christ saved them.
 
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renniks

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Again, it's concrete and not ambiguous. The text as you quote it above says "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

It does not say if it abides in you and you somehow lost it. Again very concrete, an "either or" when compared to other Scriptures brings us back to whether or not 'what abides' was received in the first place. Remember the soils...only one was prepared to accept the seed and produce an abundance.
You only read it this way because you don't believe it is possible to lose salvation. Why is there an "if" at all when, as you suppose, there is no possibility of anything but the truth continuing to abide in you? And as far as the seed and soil, you read it backward too. Where does it say anything about the soil being prepared?
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The onus is on the one receiving as to whether he continues and grows or not.
 
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redleghunter

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So you prove that point I made, which is not as important as your statement disproves OSAS. Christ doesn't just say they were false teachers, he also specifically claims they did not do the will of his father, neither did they obey Christ's words. Now if all that was because they were only false CHRISTIAN teachers so be it. You just agreed with scripture that Christ rejects them, though they are Christian, because they sinned by being a false teacher. That proves the works of a Christian can get him rejected, even though in his mind he serves God and is saved. Those thinking that here clearly were not saved. They were rejected due to their behavior.
Where does the text indicate they were "Christians?" There were no Christians when Jesus spoke those words and there is no indication who Jesus is talking about are His chosen who are then unchosen and punished. You have injected that idea into the text.

What the text plainly indicates is that not everyone who proclaims the Name of the Lord are His sheep.

The FACT they die, though they are Christian teachers, believing in God, proves your teaching OSAS is dangerous.
You are making that up. And there is no theological Reformed term "OSAS." That is a made up term as well. It is called the perseverance of the saints and preservation of the saints. As in:

Romans 8: NASB

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”


37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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redleghunter

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The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

How can you fear the Lord if you believe in OSAS?
All those who believe in OSAS do not fear God at all!
False claim not supported by Holy Scriptures. The following is from a Calvinist:

Pray for the Fear of God

Psalm 130:3-4 If you, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand. But there is forgiveness with You that You may be feared. (Note: The fear of God results from forgiveness and it draws us to Him.)

The reason people do not follow Jesus is that they lack a fear of God.

Psalm 36:1-2 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked, there is no fear of God before their eyes; for in their own eyes they flatter themselves too much to detect or hate their sin.

The fear of God has GREAT benefits: Eg. clear instruction for life choices, Intimacy with God Ps. 25:12-14; great goodness Ps. 31:19; keep us from sin Ex. 20:20; experience His great mercy Luke 1:50; and much more.

In light of this I pray for the fear of God – for myself and for my loved ones. When I pray for rulers and all men I pray the fear of God comes on them so that they might hear and understand the gospel and make an informed decision regarding their own eternal destiny.
I think of the fear of God primarily as reverence and awe resulting for believers in humble contrition before His holiness and majesty and power and for those who persist in unbelief, terror and trembling and paralyzing fear. (All will fear God when they see God.)
O God, teach us the fear of God. Amen.---Lauris Shepherd
 
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redleghunter

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The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

How can you fear the Lord if you believe in OSAS?

All those who believe in OSAS do not fear God at all!

The Puritan ministers and theologians were of Reformed Theology believing in the Biblical truth of perseverance and preservation of the saints.

I’m sure you are familiar with Puritan John Bunyan. He wrote an entire work on the fear of the Lord:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/bunyan/A_Treatise_on_the_Fear_of_God_-_John_Bunyan.pdf

Fear of the Lord is a trait God gives His elect.

Jeremiah 32: NASB

40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
 
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Kenny'sID

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So many questions and so scattered. LOL.

Let's keep it simple,I don't believe I can lose my salvation and it's because salvation has been described as the eternal gift of God:

Not at all scattered, that was in direct reply to your comment.

You mean "keep it simple" as in change the subject and walk away from the questions?

Very bad sign.
 
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