Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

gradyll said:

that is turning from trying to save yourself.

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Peter said,


Paul said,


Peter said,

gradyll said:

sir basic Biblical interpretation requires us to interpret the minority of verses based on the majority.

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Did you really do any extensive study and count all the NT grace verses and compare them with the NT Progressive Sanctification verses?

You said:

For example if the majority says we are saved by grace through faith (with repentance, and that not of ourselves, but a gift), then it is true.

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But your definition on repentance is not exactly clear and or accurate. What exactly is turning away from sin and turning towards GOD look like? Is this a passive thing or an active thing that requires work on our part? If it requires work then you are saving yourself by works of some kind. In fact, any action you take in an effort to do good (Which would be going the direction towards GOD) is a good work. So what does turning to GOD mean? Just passively in stopping to sin? What if a person is involved in idolatry? Should they not actively work at throwing away their idols in their home? Is that not a good work or deed to throw out idols?

Besides, loving your brother is a part of eternal life. Both Jesus and the apostle John taught this Scriptural fact (See: Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 10:28-29, 1 John 1:7 & then compare with 1 John 2:9-11, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15.). Loving your brother is a good work because it is shown by one's good deeds of love towards their brother.

You said:

If one or two other verses say something different, then we interpret the minority of verses in light of the majority. Again this is basic Biblical interpretation. But this is for others that are reading this thread.

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I gave you a list of verses that show that Sanctification is a part of salvation, but you just labeled them and you really did not explain them. If you truly are of the understanding that you are correct here, then by all means you would have explained at least a few of them by now. But am I am so confident that neither you or any other Eternal Security proponent will not be able to refute the plain meaning of these verses in what they say because this is not my first rodeo. I have had this discussion about almost 8 years (on various forums), and I have challenged Eternal Security proponents like yourself to make good on their claim in defending their view by explaining the verses I put forth to them, and they either come up with some odd view that goes beyond what the text plainly says or they ignore the text altogether and do not give me an explanation.

I don't expect you to understand.

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How am I to understand what you believe if you do not defend the verses I put forth to you that demolish your belief in Eternal Security and Belief Alone-ism?

Sure you can point to some verses that appear to support Belief Alone-ism (like Ephesians 2:8-9) (Romans 4:1-4) (Galatians 3), but there are also a good number of verses that supports that Sanctification also plays a part in our salvation, too (Like Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:13, James 2:24, Hebrews 12:14, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Luke 10:28-30, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 22:12-15, etc.).

You said:

You don't need to be like me, but the doctrine you are teaching is devilish.

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Actually, James says that Belief Alone-ism is devilish because he says even the demons believe and tremble (See: James 2:19). Yes, we cannot be saved without God's grace. That is where salvation starts and rests ultimately. But doing good is of GOD. For God does the good work through us by our surrendering our lives to Him. How can this kind of doing good be bad? In fact, Jesus says that the one who does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27). Jesus says that a branch that does not bear fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire (See John 15:5-6).

You said:

That we can save ourselves. Again basic logic dictates otherwise, do you lust after other women? Are you 100 percent pure in this way? or are you a work in progress like each of us? If you are a work in progress than you need grace, and grace is opposite of works. So if you cannot even save yourself by works, why should we believe that we need to be saved by works?

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Again, I do not believe it is biblical to confide in those who do not believe as I do because (even though they think they may care) I do not believe they do not have my best interests at heart in leading me to true holiness as described in the Bible. You said the Carnal Christian is saved. So this means that believers can commit grievous or serious sin and still be saved while doing so (on some level). The Bible says we are saved by having a belief in the truth and by Sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). It's not one or the other alone. You keep wanting it to be one way or the other. It is both. You have yet to reconcile how the two can work in harmony together. But they do. The Bible teaches that God's grace leads to holy living. For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). How can you live godly and righteously if you believe that no believer can walk righteously or godly in this present world in the fact that you question other believers that they cannot overcome sins of lust? Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason Christ died for us was for the purpose so as to sanctify and wash us with the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (also compare with 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living) and not unrighteous living (See Romans 5:21). For... "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" (1 John 3:10). For all who do evil hate the light (See John 3:20). Anyone who commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

gradyll said:

Yes sir I have many times, there are over a hundred verses that speak of repentance during salvation.

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We were talking about your claim before about how there are hundreds of verses for grace received as a gift, and not your version of repentance.

But to shortly address your version of repentance (that is foggy at best), you said that before repentance means to turn to GOD and away from sin. I will ask again: What exactly does that mean? Is that saying "no" to sin? You appear to say before that there is a love gospel out there and we cannot sin and just believe in the gospel. So what sin exactly is this? Is it sins like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.? If so, then turning away from these sins (that appear to be passive) rests on the two greatest commandments, which is to love GOD, and to love your neighbor. For Jesus said all the Law and the prophets hang on these two commands. Clearly loving GOD, and loving your neighbor takes effort or work. So if you are passively saying "no" to sin as a part of your version of repentance, then you are acting in love towards your neighbor and you are doing a good work as a part of loving your neighbor by actively setting out not to harm them or hurt them. In fact, Jesus even lumped "loving your neighbor" in with the other commands like: "Do not steal, do not covet, etc." in those commands that we are to keep so as to enter into life (See: Matthew 19:17-19).

Also, the words, "turn away" from something suggests active effort. If I turn away from chocolate, I have to (a) Throw out any chocolate in my home (b) refuse and fight against the temptation of chocolate. This is active effort or a good work on my part. Work is any action taken towards doing that which is good. John the Baptist defined what kind of works we need to do as befitting or worthy of repentance. John said that if we have a second coat, give it to the one you see who does not have one. If you have meat, give it to the one you see who does not have any. John said that the axe is laid to the root of the tree. This means that they are about to be cut down and throw it into the fire (Just as Jesus warned with us being the branches in John 15:5-6).

You said:

Nothing is described as working for salvation accept in one or two places, out of the entire hundred or so passages. Grace is spoken of in dozens of times.

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Well, first I want to thank you. I was offering you a commentary on my list of verses on Sanctification (works) for salvation, and I caught a few that should not be in that list. I have updated my list in Post #150 on Sanctification for salvation and I filtered out some of the verses from my original list (you replied to) that are not exactly talking about how works save and I either added them as supplementary verses or I removed them. I also added a few more verses, and so far to my count, I have 30 verses that clearly teach that you need works (Sanctification) as the second work of GOD done through the believer (after a person is saved by GOD's grace - which is the 1st work of GOD). In other words, it is not true that there is only 2 places in Scripture that talk about works in relation to salvation. My new updated list shows 30 points or places in Scripture. Do you care to take a shot at explaining at least a few of them (by giving me a word for word commentary on them)?

You said:

Like I said we must interpret the minority of verses in relation to the majority. Not the other way around.

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No. Both sets of verses are true. One set of verses do not undo the other set of verses. If you and or some other Eternal Security proponent were correct, you would have offered a rational explanation as to what those verses plainly say in the Sanctification for salvation category. I have been having this discussion for about 8 years now with many on various Christian forums, and they have yet to offer a rational explanation that does justice to the verses they ignore in regards to how salvation is conditional. In regards to my list of verses on Sanctification for works: There are 30 to my count so far, and not 2 (and I am sure there are more). So far, you appear to think of them as a mystery. For me: I am able to easily harmonize both sets of verses with no problem and I am able to explain both sets of verses with no problems. In fact, there are even verses that talk about the harmonization of God's grace and Sanctification (works) (See again Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:11-12, Romans 5:21, and 1 Corinthians 15:10).

You said:

If I was to believe we are saved by works, that contradicts all dozen or so grace passages, and allows me only to honor one or two. That would not be the wisest way to interpret scripture.

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The best way to help you to understand how we are saved by Grace and Works is by way of a real world example (of which Jesus gave many times by way of his parables).

For example: If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

But do you need a verse for this?

If you do, read James 2:18.

gradyll said:

Salvation is and always will be a gift of a gracious God and not a paycheck for upright behavior ...

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I agree salvation is not a paycheck for upright behavior alone. In Romans 4, Paul's point is "Works ALONE Salvationism" undoes the grace of GOD. It is why he asked in Romans 3:1 what profit is there in circumcision? Paul said this because Christians were being deceived by a certain sect of Jews on how they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved. In fact, if you were to read Romans 4 again, you will see Paul talking about the order of circumcision as a part of his point. He said Abraham FIRST believed GOD and then later he was circumcised. But the Jews were saying these Christians needed to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved, thereby implying that they did not have to trust in Christ by faith for their salvation first and or as their ultimate rest and or foundation for their faith (in being saved) (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). In short, if believers thought they had to be circumcised first to be saved, this would be making the Law or Works Alone the foundation for their faith, and it would undo having faith in Jesus Christ as their entrance to salvation and as their foundation of salvation.

Paul is arguing against Works Alone Salvationism (of which I disagree with). Paul is arguing against trying to be justified by the Law of Moses (of which is no longer in effect as a package deal; Note: Yes, certain commands have repeated into the New Covenant, but the Old Law, the 613 commands as a whole is no more). Anyways, there was a long time ago that I ran into a self professing Christian guy who appeared to deny God's grace and he pushed how we must do works. This of course is wrong, and I exhorted him with Scripture that his view is not correct. For a person cannot be saved without God's grace because they need to wipe their past slate of sin clean. If a believer happens to stumble into a sin on rare occasion, they have God's grace that they can go to (i.e. they can confess of their sin to be forgiven again or to maintain their forgiveness). But after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, we build upon this foundation a building of good works.

Anyways, the analogy is that if Rick received a free car as a gift, that does not mean he can ignore the responsibilities in owning that gift. Rick cannot run red lights, hit pedestrians, and or drive drunk and expect to keep his gift. There are works of responsibility that he has to do to keep that gift. But does that mean Rick has to work at a job to pay for the car? No. It was a gift. So just because he did not have to work to receive the gift, he does have to be responsible with that gift in order to keep it.

@gradyll

In other words, there is a huge difference between


Paul was arguing against Option #1., and he was not arguing against Option #2.
Arguing against "Works" in general is to confuse the issue, and it is a common mistake many make when they read Paul (Which would sort of be like this picture below):





Many think Paul is easy to understand. But he is not. Even Peter says this of Paul's writings,

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In other words, people misunderstood Paul even back during the early church years and they used his words as a license to live as they please (living in sin by doing what they want) instead of being in service to the Lord.

"And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." (Luke 8:21).

19 "What? know ye not that... ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

How do we glorify GOD in our body and in our spirit?

By good works.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

Many today think that they glorify GOD by just believing in the finished work of the cross, but 1 Corinthians 6:20 and Matthew 5:16 tell a different story.

Jesus said that the person who DOES NOT DO what He says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27).

But many will cry that it is impossible to obey the LORD.



Meaning, that GOD can make it possible for a person to not desire in being rich. GOD can change a person's heart. GOD can help a person to overcome greed (or the over accumulation of wealth) and or other sins.

In fact, the Old Testament stories had various different battles where God's people overcame insurmountable odds. The Israelites should have lost because they were outnumbered, but GOD was on their side to win the battle. Today, we do not fight physical battles as God's people, but we fight a spiritual battle in overcoming grievous sin within our lives. The odds may seem against us in obeying the LORD's commands within the New Testament or New Covenant, but with GOD all things are possible.

For in 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

By the statements made by Eternal Security proponents and or Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone Proponents over the years, I do not see how they can honestly believe this above verse at face value. They have to change it and make it say something completely different. Who am I going to believe? Them or Scripture? I choose Scripture.

Salvation has always been, and will always be (as long as time continues), by grace, through faith.

I am not an Arminian, I am not a Calvinist, I just believe what the Scripture says.

Yes, we must repent. But we must understand what the word "repent" means.

Dr. Jack said:

Salvation has always been, and will always be (as long as time continues), by grace, through faith.

I am not an Arminian, I am not a Calvinist, I just believe what the Scripture says.

Yes, we must repent. But we must understand what the word "repent" means.

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A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:


#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

Bible Highlighter said:

A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

Click to expand...

That's real nice, but I want to ask you tw honest questions; 1)Do you understand the use of the comma (,) in English grammar?; 2) Do you understand the preposition "for" has two meanings?

The first meaning is "in order to"; as in, "I went to the store FOR a loaf of bread.

The second meaning is "because of"; as in, I went to jail FOR stealing a loaf of bread.

Unless you believe in Baptismal regeneration, (salvation is contingent on baptism in deep water), you would understand that you get baptized BECAUSE you are already saved.

The same is true in the case of FOR the remission of sins. It isn't repentance IN ORDER TO get remission of sin; it's repentance BECAUSE I already have repentance of sin.

The word "repentance" simply means to have a change of mind.

Was God "sorry for sin" in any of the following?:

21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite. 1 Chronicles

6:4 That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;7:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.7:2 And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.7:4 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.7:5 Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD. Amos

3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah

Repentance means that we change our minds, or change the way we think about what we believe concerning God.

Repentance

Jesus said the following:
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke

The Holy Spirit had Paul write the following:
7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

The Holy Spirit also had Paul write the following : 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians

And … 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans

3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians
So we have the following facts:
1) We must repent, in order not to perish.
2) “godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation"
3) We are saved by the grace of God.
4) We are not to “live" in sin.
5) We start with grace, we continue in grace.

1) Repentance: Repentance is a change of mind. Prior to salvation, we ‘think' we can ‘abstain’ from sin (live according to the law) to obtain salvation. God, providing evidence of Himself, allows us to change our mind to having faith in the grace of God to save us, rather than our own works of righteousness.
2) “godly sorrow": “godly sorrow is the result of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that it is our sin that put Christ on the cross.
3) We are saved by the grace of God: Grace is when we get something we do not deserve. Our sin makes us deserve Hell; but because God loves us, He graciously saves us.
4) We are not to “live" in sin: We as Christians must understand that even if we had the ability to stop sinning, it would not erase the fact that we still deserve Hell. The fact is, sin caused us to deserve Hell prior to getting saved by grace; sin still causes us to deserve Hell after we get save.
5) We start with grace, we continue in grace: When we first come to Christ, we depend upon His grace, for we are all too aware of our sinful condition. However, after receiving our salvation, (by grace), we tend to feel the need to revert back to living according to the law, in order to ‘maintain’ our salvation. How can we, by ‘obedience’ to the law, maintain that (our salvation), which we could not obtain, in that same manner?

That is the question Paul is asking the Galatians: “having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” The answer is, No! Does this give us a license to sin? This is the question of Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul is asking a rhetorical question! Think about it … we are saved by grace … and kept by grace.

Dr. Jack said:

That's real nice, but I want to ask you tw honest questions; 1)Do you understand the use of the comma (,) in English grammar?; 2) Do you understand the preposition "for" has two meanings?

The first meaning is "in order to"; as in, "I went to the store FOR a loaf of bread.

The second meaning is "because of"; as in, I went to jail FOR stealing a loaf of bread.

Unless you believe in Baptismal regeneration, (salvation is contingent on baptism in deep water), you would understand that you get baptized BECAUSE you are already saved.

The same is true in the case of FOR the remission of sins. It isn't repentance IN ORDER TO get remission of sin; it's repentance BECAUSE I already have repentance of sin.

The word "repentance" simply means to have a change of mind.

Was God "sorry for sin" in any of the following?:

21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite. 1 Chronicles

6:4 That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;7:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.7:2 And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.7:4 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.7:5 Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD. Amos

3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah

Repentance means that we change our minds, or change the way we think about what we believe concerning God.

Repentance

Jesus said the following:
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke

The Holy Spirit had Paul write the following:
7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2 Corinthians

The Holy Spirit also had Paul write the following : 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians

And … 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans

3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians
So we have the following facts:
1) We must repent, in order not to perish.
2) “godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation"
3) We are saved by the grace of God.
4) We are not to “live" in sin.
5) We start with grace, we continue in grace.

1) Repentance: Repentance is a change of mind. Prior to salvation, we ‘think' we can ‘abstain’ from sin (live according to the law) to obtain salvation. God, providing evidence of Himself, allows us to change our mind to having faith in the grace of God to save us, rather than our own works of righteousness.
2) “godly sorrow": “godly sorrow is the result of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that it is our sin that put Christ on the cross.
3) We are saved by the grace of God: Grace is when we get something we do not deserve. Our sin makes us deserve Hell; but because God loves us, He graciously saves us.
4) We are not to “live" in sin: We as Christians must understand that even if we had the ability to stop sinning, it would not erase the fact that we still deserve Hell. The fact is, sin caused us to deserve Hell prior to getting saved by grace; sin still causes us to deserve Hell after we get save.
5) We start with grace, we continue in grace: When we first come to Christ, we depend upon His grace, for we are all too aware of our sinful condition. However, after receiving our salvation, (by grace), we tend to feel the need to revert back to living according to the law, in order to ‘maintain’ our salvation. How can we, by ‘obedience’ to the law, maintain that (our salvation), which we could not obtain, in that same manner?

That is the question Paul is asking the Galatians: “having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” The answer is, No! Does this give us a license to sin? This is the question of Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul is asking a rhetorical question! Think about it … we are saved by grace … and kept by grace.

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You didn't read my post. I said that repentance is seeking forgiveness with GOD (i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ). If you look at the points I made in Scripture, this must be the inescapable conclusion you must make (if you want to be fair in what the text plainly says). My points in Scripture pretty much disproves any notion that repentance is merely a change of mind alone.

I do not believe water baptism is done for salvation. I believe it was an Old Covenant ritual that was slowly being faded out until Spirit baptism would eventually take over with the laying on of hands and or by a person merely accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. Water baptism was merely a picture or symbol type ritual that showed one's inner baptism into Christ.

I also not against grace. I believe we cannot be saved without God's grace, and I believe we have to continue in His grace. I believe we continue in his grace by walking in the light (See 1 John 1:7). We also can continue in his grace via by confession of sin so as to be forgiven of sin if so happen to stumble in a sin on rare occasion (See 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

But respectfully, I believe you misunderstand what Paul meant about his condemnation in regards to the Law and or works, my friend. Paul was referring to the whole of the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 laws as a whole given to Israel). This does not mean certain commands have not repeated in the New Testament or New Covenant that was given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. We are not saved by following the Torah or the Old Law. For example: The ceremonial laws in the OT have not carried over into the NT. There is no Saturday Sabbath command, or circumcision command, etc. in the New Covenant.

As for sin:

Sin still leads to spiritual death (even for a believer).
For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

Bible Highlighter said:

You didn't read my post. I said that repentance is seeking forgiveness with GOD (i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ). If you look at the points I made in Scripture, this must be the inescapable conclusion you must make (if you want to be fair in what the text plainly says). My points in Scripture pretty much disproves any notion that repentance is merely a change of mind alone.

I do not believe water baptism is done for salvation. I believe it was an Old Covenant ritual that was slowly being faded out until Spirit baptism would eventually take over with the laying on of hands and or by a person merely accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. Water baptism was merely a picture or symbol type ritual that showed one's inner baptism into Christ.

I also not against grace. I believe we cannot be saved without God's grace, and I believe we have to continue in His grace. I believe we continue in his grace by walking in the light (See 1 John 1:7). We also can continue in his grace via by confession of sin so as to be forgiven of sin if so happen to stumble in a sin on rare occasion (See 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

But respectfully, I believe you misunderstand what Paul meant about his condemnation in regards to the Law and or works, my friend. Paul was referring to the whole of the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 laws as a whole given to Israel). This does not mean certain commands have not repeated in the New Testament or New Covenant that was given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. We are not saved by following the Torah or the Old Law. For example: The ceremonial laws in the OT have not carried over into the NT. There is no Saturday Sabbath command, or circumcision command, etc. in the New Covenant.

As for sin:

Sin still leads to spiritual death (even for a believer).
For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

Click to expand...

1) I actually DID read your post.
I also know the lexical meaning of words. Irregardless of what you may think, the lecicon (produced by those who study the use of words in Scripture ... kind of like the dictionary), gives "repent" a different definition.

It literally means, "to think differently afterwards".
Hence, to change our mind.

Here is a link that shows this precisely ...

G3340 μετανοέω - Strong's Greek Lexicon

The English "repent" must concur to the Greek meaning of μετανοέω from which it is rendered.

Neither my opinion, nor your opinion matters; we must follow the established lexical meaning of the Greek, μετανοέω, and therefore the English "repent".

Altering that definition is to alter any theological views we stand upon.

Dr. Jack said:

1) I actually DID read your post.
I also know the lexical meaning of words. Irregardless of what you may think, the lecicon (produced by those who study the use of words in Scripture ... kind of like the dictionary), gives "repent" a different definition.

It literally means, "to think differently afterwards".
Hence, to change our mind.

Here is a link that shows this precisely ...

G3340 μετανοέω - Strong's Greek Lexicon

The English "repent" must concur to the Greek meaning of μετανοέω from which it is rendered.

Neither my opinion, nor your opinion matters; we must follow the established lexical meaning of the Greek, μετανοέω, and therefore the English "repent".

Altering that definition is to alter any theological views we stand upon.

Click to expand...

The English is translated from the original languages. So to say that the English has a different meaning is to trust a Lexicon or scholar over what the Bible plainly says in our language. I choose the Bible because God says that He preserved His Word for us today. So there is no basis for a discussion or debate if the foundation of the basis for what we consider to be God's Word is removed. I just read and believe the Bible plainly. You don't read Lexicons and Concordances in life for other written works in English.

I am simple and I know I will stand before GOD in what it simply said and not in some group of religious dudes thought that the Bible said with the creation of a Lexicon and Concordance. Yes, a Lexicon and Concordance can be helpful tools sometimes, but they should not be a replacement for the Bible. There is no special filter for understanding His Word. Just read it, and believe it. That's it. So then, how do we define a word? By the context or by looking at the surrounding words. Leave the word in question in a blank space (kind of like fill in the blank with the best word) to fit the rest of what the text says. This is how to understand what the Bible says in regards to its words. The interpretation you use for "repent" is nonsensical, friend. It does not fit the context and it reads like mumbo jumbo in certain passages. For "repent" does not exclusively meaning a change of mind. That would render many passages as being meaningless or confusing. But you are free to believe as you wish, of course.

gradyll said:

There is an abundant, unconditional flow of His grace available to you right now. Don't try to earn it, just reach out and receive it ...

Click to expand...

"When you say "just reach out," it sounds like your quoting the actor who played Bill Graham from the Unbroken: Path to Redemption movie. Unfortunately, the real Billy believed in Eternal Security. For I believe this to be a false doctrine. I believe Eternal Security is wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. If there is one false belief that makes my blood boil the most, it is Eternal Security. To me, it is against everything that GOD and Jesus stand for. Eternal Security is not only easily disproven by Scripture in numerous ways, but it is disproven easily based on a person doing a basic morality test or check by way of real world example. Eternal Security can be disproven by the fact that there are tons of verses that talk about falling away. It can be disproven by looking at verses that use the word "if" in relation to our standing with GOD. It can be disproven by looking at the verses on how works play a part in the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. It is disproven by looking at those verses that say we are to continue in God's grace, continue in the faith, and continue in His goodness. It is disproven by looking at the verses that talk about how sin can separate a believer from GOD from Genesis to Revelation. So I am not even remotely interested in buying' in what our selling. To me it is like your offering stinky garbage as good food or something. Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone-ism (Free Will Baptism) is no different. Both Eternal Security and the Free Will Baptist belief justify the idea that one can sin and still be saved on some level. For you yourself have admitted that the carnal Christian is saved and you have implied that it sounds impossible that a believer can overcome certain sins like lusting after women, and they cannot help the poor, or they cannot give away a good amount of their possessions, etc. For you seem to be in disbelief that we cannot give a second coat to the poor (as if to sound like it is unreasonable or something) by your criticism of the Google document you provided to me. The problem is that it makes it appear like you are not believing what Jesus and His followers told us to do. You say it is impossible. But with GOD, all things are possible.

gradyll said:

There is an abundant, unconditional flow of His grace available to you right now. Don't try to earn it, just reach out and receive it ...

Click to expand...

I also do not believe grace is as you say. Sin does not allow for the existence of the Carnal Christian to be saved. That would be a clear violation of basic morality. Neither do I subscribe to your label that I work or earn my salvation as an exclusive thing alone. As I told you before, I believe the Bible teaches that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But seeing God's grace is not a license for immorality and or to live as you please or as your own god, we do actually have to be followers of Jesus and obey the most important things that He says for us to do. For we are not our own, and we are bought and paid for with a price.