Taxing the rich to help poor is theft

FenderTL5 said:

I see.
Actually, that's not true. I can't grasp a mindset such as yours.

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What's not true? Please be specific.

renniks said:

Jesus told that man that for a reason, because he was trusting in his money. It's not something you can apply across the board. It's also something that has to be voluntary to matter. Taxes aren't voluntary.

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Taxes aren't voluntary, but there are voluntary measures for raising government capital.

LoveOurNeighbor said:

Well...what did Jesus say?

18A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ a ”

21“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”


This wasn't 10, 20. 30, 40 , 95% but ALL
So was Jesus the 1st thief of the rich?

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You're forgetting one big thing here...Jesus DID NOT say, "Government officials go and tax the rich man regardless of his will!"

timewerx said:

Most Christians (love to) assume, that it only applied to that particular poor rich guy (pardon the pun!), lol!

But then we also have this verse:

1 John 3:16-18
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

And let's not forget about Zacchaeus.

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Yes that's an exhortation to be generous and helpful if you have the means. It is not a mandate for worldly leaders go ahead and tax anybody who has anything into the ground.

durangodawood said:

I think that if taxation was "theft" Jesus would have spoken against it when he took on that topic specifically.

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You can find he potentially did when he stated about having wealth you need to understand....not to have your faith put in what you've got stored up for the worldly system can break into it where moth and rust does corrupt and where thieves can break in and steal. Matt 6:19

First it all depends on what you mean by taxation. God is all in favour of services given would rightly need to be provided for...(in modern setting today the paying for essential services...police, teachers, road repair, and the list can go on. When people work they deserve pay....HOWEVER rolling out the candies at election time providing all free things violates others principles of God which says if a man doesn't work neither than should he eat. 2 Thess 3:10

So the question is...what do you mean by taxation? Forcing people to give up wealth and have it dished out to individuals from which the other didn't benefit any way from them providing a service? That's a whole different ball park than the other and thus does become thievery. That's NOT TO SAY the wealthy shouldn't help those in need who haven't provided a service but it's a heart thing of giving from FREE WILL. Not a force thing by government demanding.

98cwitr said:

What's not true? Please be specific.

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It's not true that "I see".

FenderTL5 said:

It's not true that "I see".

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Why should we be forced to pay for programs that we may or may not use, even programs that we may or may not agree with? Giving to the disadvantaged is something every Christian should do in one way or another, but if it's compulsory, or if a lot of the funds go to government bureaucrats, that's a whole other issue.

renniks said:

Why should we be forced to pay for programs that we may or may not use, even programs that we may or may not agree with? Giving to the disadvantaged is something every Christian should do in one way or another, but if it's compulsory, or if a lot of the funds go to government bureaucrats, that's a whole other issue.

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Good question. But if the government stopped funding programs that some individuals disagreed with we wouldn't have any programs at all.

Speedwell said:

Good question. But if the government stopped funding programs that some individuals disagreed with we wouldn't have any programs at all.

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I think that's the point.

Bobber said:

You can find he potentially did when he stated about having wealth you need to understand....not to have your faith put in what you've got stored up for the worldly system can break into it where moth and rust does corrupt and where thieves can break in and steal. Matt 6:19

First it all depends on what you mean by taxation. God is all in favour of services given would rightly need to be provided for...(in modern setting today the paying for essential services...police, teachers, road repair, and the list can go on. When people work they deserve pay....HOWEVER rolling out the candies at election time providing all free things violates others principles of God which says if a man doesn't work neither than should he eat. 2 Thess 3:10

So the question is...what do you mean by taxation? Forcing people to give up wealth and have it dished out to individuals from which the other didn't benefit any way from them providing a service? That's a whole different ball park than the other and thus does become thievery. That's NOT TO SAY the wealthy shouldn't help those in need who haven't provided a service but it's a heart thing of giving from FREE WILL. Not a force thing by government demanding.

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I dunno.

There was a time when I didnt pay taxes (during college) but I was getting a ton of benefits from taxpayers in the form of a functioning legal system, infrastructure, national defense, childhood education, etc, etc. I got those from taxpayers while I was contributing nothing. I didnt work. But I sure "ate" those things. And I'm not embarrassed in the slightest to say it.

When the Jesus briefly mentioned taxation, I wonder if he also said other things about "but not for a fund for widows and children, etc" that didnt make it into the bible?

renniks said:

Why should we be forced to pay for programs that we may or may not use..

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In order to have adequate funding when that "may use" becomes the reality.

98cwitr said:

By that logic, then jack the tax rate to 100% and give all the cash back to the government.

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If that's what they ask then that's what I'd give. They printed/coined it, it's ultimately theirs. They can devalue it if they really want to.

98cwitr said:

I am a bit taken back that you think I'm listening to people and being brainwashed. I arrived at these conclusions on my own, and they simply happened to be supported by others.

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I wouldn't and didn't say you're being brainwashed but rather just listening to others. I felt that was better than thinking you came up with this on your own as it would absolve you from the responsibility for it, so I was actually trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. In either case you do agree with a lot of those folks.

98cwitr said:

I fight for the prosperity and freedom of others, including the poor and those who are trying to make ends meet. They do not deserve to have their labor stripped from them. I am fighting against the oppression of socialism, which seeks to place the state equal to God and bring about the 2nd coming of Christ without Him present. I will never bow to fallible man, I will never become a subject.

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If you want to fight for true prosperity and freedom of others then use God's Word which is sharper than any two-edged sword. The "oppression of socialism" is not a real thing in the US so you're tilting at windmills and being distracted from serving God by fighting imaginary boogie men.

98cwitr said:

The Imperial Tax, in the context of Matthew 22, was levied against non-Roman subjects (ie: The Jews), whereas Roman citizens did not have to pay the tax. This is why I preface that we are citizens and not subjects.

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Completely irrelevant. The semantics of "subject" vs. "citizen" are not relevant - all people, including citizens, are subject to their governmental authority. However that authority chooses to tax them is up to that authority and all who are subject to them are bound to comply. God's Word teaches us in that pesky Romans chapter 13 that we are to be subject to these authorities and to pay tax to them for that service they provide us.

Like it or not, you ARE a subject, even as a citizen. You don't like it? Go find a piece of unclaimed land that is not protected or served by any other governmental authority and set up your own libertarian paradise. Good luck with that. (Of course you won't - you're perfectly content with how God has it set up with you being a subject of the USA's government but you will leverage your libertarian propaganda in an effort to remove responsibility from yourself and shift it to others, which is the ultimate goal of libertarianism in reality).

98cwitr said:

1 Corinthians 9

One cannot cheerfully give by force. If the state takes from me under threat, then that is theft. If the state seeks to offer me a service which I can choose to participate in or not, then my willfully donations to my churches and charities are cheerfully given.

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I think you mean 2 Corinthians 9 (or as Trump would say, "two Corinthians..." LOL)

You're wrong again. God's Word does not instruct on having a choice or options. It simply states to subject yourself to the authorities that God has placed above you because they are His ministers to justice AND that you must pay the tax demanded of you because this is their compensation. It's very clear, black and white, right there in the Word of God.

98cwitr said:

Your tactic a rhetoric is the same used by 19th century slave holders to justify slavery. Those running the state are my equal; they are everyone's equal. Therefore I shall be subject to no man, and only to God.

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This is a load of malarkey. If you are subject to God then you would obey Him and if you obey Him then you would be subject to the earthly authorities He has placed above you.

Once more, from the Word of God:
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

You buck against this clear instruction from God and He says right here that by resisting you "resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

You are in grave error. If you want to be libertarian in your politics then have at it, but don't pretend it's in line with Christianity when God's Word provides clear and direct instruction that goes directly AGAINST your libertarian viewpoint and message.

Historically, periods when the wealthiest citizens control more than 25% of the country's wealth caused the Great Depression (1929) and the Great Recession (2008). The wealthiest Americans do far better economically (and so does everyone else) when the middle class earns living wages and has economic security against hard times--unemployment insurance, short and long term disability, medical coverage, retirement benefits. Yes, even things like SNAP and Pell Grants.

Yes, that means taxes are higher, and that the wealthy bear a larger portion of the tax burden. But they also benefit disproportionately. They need to lift their eyes up from their stock portfolios to see the truth: a strong middle class is the greatest boon for prosperity for any country--but that means that business owners and the wealthy have to stop complaining about higher minimum wages, universal health care, etc. If they want their businesses to prosper, they need to support safety net programs and fair wages for everyone else because that's what gives them CUSTOMERS.

To be biblical, God said "render to Caesar." God told a parable about a man who stockpiled his grain--which gave him no protection against death and final judgment.

What is the point of holding on to your money and complaining about how "tax is theft" if it hurts not only others' economic security (which you might not necessarily care about) and also your own???

Many of the posts here are very disheartening. While I don't think that they represent the teachings of Jesus personally, I fear that some people will think they do and that that will weaken their faith. I hate seeing the Gospel interpreted in a way that does not promote the common good.

Fantine said:

Many of the posts here are very disheartening. While I don't think that they represent the teachings of Jesus personally, I fear that some people will think they do and that that will weaken their faith. I hate seeing the Gospel interpreted in a way that does not promote the common good.

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Where if anywhere in Scripture does Yahuweh the Creator OR Jesus "promote the common good" as opposed to working all things for
the good of all those who love God and who are called according to His Purpose ?

Personally, I think it is just the worse that my tax money may be used to fund a school lunch program. I mean sure, my church supports a food bank program. But the ONLY money that should EVER go to helping others, is money that I say it should.

I help people through my church! Stop taking away so much tax so I can get two more McDonald's breakfasts a month!!

Google Image Result for https://c7.alamy.com/comp/APR9DD/tongue-in-cheek-APR9DD.jpg

We saw how private charity worked for 5000.years or more--with disastrous results.
The government supports your charitable taxdonations by making them tax deductible. They are basically Revenue sharing with you when you make a deductible contribution. And they allow the tax deduction even when churches make people listen to sermons or attend services in order to get the aid. In my town children had to have their feet washed by do-gooders, some of whom.are self-righteous, in order to get school supplies. That makes me sick. God reveals himself to different people in different ways. and what I know for sure is that God would never want me or anyone else to use the Bible to justify selfishness or to let children go hungry in school.

ArmenianJohn said:

If that's what they ask then that's what I'd give. They printed/coined it, it's ultimately theirs. They can devalue it if they really want to.

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That would be the Federal Reserve, not the "government." Are you familiar with how fiat currencies work?

I wouldn't and didn't say you're being brainwashed but rather just listening to others. I felt that was better than thinking you came up with this on your own as it would absolve you from the responsibility for it, so I was actually trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. In either case you do agree with a lot of those folks.

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Well I'm sorry because it seems I've disappointed you. Nevertheless, this are my own thoughts, supported and echoed by others like me.

If you want to fight for true prosperity and freedom of others then use God's Word which is sharper than any two-edged sword. The "oppression of socialism" is not a real thing in the US so you're tilting at windmills and being distracted from serving God by fighting imaginary boogie men.

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So you say, yet you've got most of the DNC parroting virtue signals that speak of nationalizing particular industry, which is the definition of socialism. So what you call an "imaginary boogie man" I'm seeing clear as day and in the flesh.

Completely irrelevant. The semantics of "subject" vs. "citizen" are not relevant - all people, including citizens, are subject to their governmental authority. However that authority chooses to tax them is up to that authority and all who are subject to them are bound to comply. God's Word teaches us in that pesky Romans chapter 13 that we are to be subject to these authorities and to pay tax to them for that service they provide us.

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I am not a subject. Subjects have no rights, no freedoms, and are slaves to the state:

Before the Declaration of Independence, "subject" and "denizen" 2were the terms most frequently used in the United States in connections where "citizen" would now be the proper word. This was the natural usage in what then were British colonies, endowed with all the trimmings of the British legal order. Even after the Declaration of Independence, some states enacted constitutions designating as "subjects"the status which others identified by the term "inhabitants," while still others used "citizens" and "subjects" indiscriminately.' "Subjects" of the United States of America were referred to in the treaties signed by the Continental Congress with France (February 6, 1778) 4and the Netherlands (October 8, 1782).

https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4474&context=ylj

Like it or not, you ARE a subject, even as a citizen. You don't like it? Go find a piece of unclaimed land that is not protected or served by any other governmental authority and set up your own libertarian paradise. Good luck with that. (Of course you won't - you're perfectly content with how God has it set up with you being a subject of the USA's government but you will leverage your libertarian propaganda in an effort to remove responsibility from yourself and shift it to others, which is the ultimate goal of libertarianism in reality).

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While I see your point that reason suggests we are "subjected" to laws and taxes, what makes me not a subject in the term is that I have a voice to oppose them.

I think you mean 2 Corinthians 9 (or as Trump would say, "two Corinthians..." LOL)

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Ah yes, than you for correcting my typo.

You're wrong again. God's Word does not instruct on having a choice or options. It simply states to subject yourself to the authorities that God has placed above you because they are His ministers to justice AND that you must pay the tax demanded of you because this is their compensation. It's very clear, black and white, right there in the Word of God.

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But they aren't in our contemporary case. They're mostly atheist. They cannot minister a message of a Being they don't believe in.

This is a load of malarkey. If you are subject to God then you would obey Him and if you obey Him then you would be subject to the earthly authorities He has placed above you.

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I disagree. That said, I pay my taxes, but I am not going to tolerate my labors being usurped from either myself, you, or my neighbors.

Once more, from the Word of God:
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

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If we had not opposed Britain in 1776, America would not exist. If we had not opposed Stalin, Lenin, or Hilter; their evils would have prevailed further. Therefore, your understanding of this MUST be found further in the context.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

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Who is "the power?"

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

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So Evil rulers do not fit the context. Now we're getting somewhere

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

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Atheists cannot be ministers of God. So your narrative shows that our current atheist leaders need not apply here. And what is their message? Disarmament, higher taxation, continued oppression of the poor, and open borders. Whatever evils shall come from their mouths we should oppose, for they are in opposition to the inalienable rights provided to us by God.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

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This is why I don't commit tax evasion.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

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Again, not in the case of evil rulers.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

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I do, but there is no provision here that prevents me from speaking out against their injustices.

You buck against this clear instruction from God and He says right here that by resisting you "resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

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Just proved I do not. Reject the evil from among us!

You are in grave error. If you want to be libertarian in your politics then have at it, but don't pretend it's in line with Christianity when God's Word provides clear and direct instruction that goes directly AGAINST your libertarian viewpoint and message.

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Show me where they are ministers of God; workers of good according to His Word, and I will yield. Otherwise, drop this falsehood.

Fantine said:

We saw how private charity worked for 5000.years or more--with disastrous results.
The government supports your charitable taxdonations by making them tax deductible. They are basically Revenue sharing with you when you make a deductible contribution. And they allow the tax deduction even when churches make people listen to sermons or attend services in order to get the aid. In my town children had to have their feet washed by do-gooders, some of whom.are self-righteous, in order to get school supplies. That makes me sick. God reveals himself to different people in different ways. and what I know for sure is that God would never want me or anyone else to use the Bible to justify selfishness or to let children go hungry in school.

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Hold the parents accountable.

Fantine said:

Many of the posts here are very disheartening. While I don't think that they represent the teachings of Jesus personally, I fear that some people will think they do and that that will weaken their faith. I hate seeing the Gospel interpreted in a way that does not promote the common good.

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Do you believe that the United States should become a theocracy, ousting the non-religous from government, and establish a Christian monarchy before Jesus returns? If not, do you believe that we should use the government to establish and force Christian values onto the populous?

I'm all for promoting the common good, but that should be the message in and out of our churches and charities. At what point did we decide this was a role of (failing, corrupt, and inefficient) government?

98cwitr said:

Atheists cannot be ministers of God. So your narrative shows that our current atheist leaders need not apply here. And what is their message? Disarmament, higher taxation, continued oppression of the poor, and open borders. Whatever evils shall come from their mouths we should oppose, for they are in opposition to the inalienable rights provided to us by God.

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Atheist leaders? Who are they?