Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
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What did the Early Church Fathers write about the return of Christ during 70 AD?
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Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
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Which is pointing to Daniel 7 (as the early church fathers wrote of). Look at where this scene takes place:
Daniel 7:13-14 ~ In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
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I don't limit His comings - but I don't have any problem with this passage. He was taken with the clouds (but Christ is Spirit - He's not limited to physical boundaries). "Clouds" in the Hebrew text are those created symbols of transcendence and imminence.
I thought this was interesting:
Quoting from link: The first place where clouds play a prominent role in redemptive history is in the flood narrative. No sooner had Noah and his family stepped off of the Ark that the LORD placed his bow in the clouds--a sacramental reminder of the covenant mercy that He was promising in preparation for the coming Redeemer. ~ A Biblical Theology of Clouds
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DavidPT
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It's def connected with Daniel 7, but not in the way you are connecting it.
In Daniel 7:13-14 it is not until after He arrives that He is then presented with power and great glory. In the coming shown in Luke 21:27 He is seen coming already possessing power and great glory. Obviously then, the coming in Daniel 7:13-14 is not the same coming seen in Luke 21:27. But because of the coming in Daniel 7:13-14, which is meaning His acension back into heaven where He was then presented with power and great glory after having arrived, and the fact He has to return at some point, why wouldn't He be returning already possessing power and great glory? He for sure wasn't already possessing those things before He arrived during the time of His ascension.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
This obviously occurs first----one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven---meaning He is traveling at this point.
This obviously occurs next----and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed----meaning once He has reached His destination.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
In this coming He is seen coming already possessing power and great glory.
one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven
the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory
No way can these be the same coming. Impossible. The former mentions zero about coming and already possessing power and great glory upon arrival.
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Do you have a disagreement with what Dr. Luke recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11?
Are you calling Dr. Luke "carnal"?
Does quoting that passage of scripture make a person a "zionist"?
The identity of the "candlesticks" from Revelation chapter 11 is found in Revelation 1:20, and the identity of the "olive trees" in Revelation 11 is found in Romans 11:24.
Dispensational Futurism is a ditch on the side of the road of Bible prophecy, and some forms of Preterism are the ditch on the opposite side of the road.
Those who truly believe in "Partial-Preterism" would also have to believe in "Partial-Futurism".
Are you a "Partial-Futurist"?
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Can you explain how the facts above change what Dr. Luke recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11?
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Just an observation...
This thread points us in the direction of the actual differences between dispensationalism and covenant theology. It's not the often cited emphasis on the role of the Jews in the end times or the rapture of the church. Those are the cause and effect.
The real differences between dispensationalism and covenant theology is the way in which the fans of the systems view the actual words of the Holy Bible. When a prediction is made on a future event, is it considered fulfilled if a historical event somewhat resembles the prediction or do the details of the prediction matter, should we expect an actual literal fulfillment?
Does Jehovah have the ability or even the desire to give man through the Scriptures enough fine detail on future events to allow us to determine if those events have come to pass or are we expected to fabricate a complex and/or vague scenario that allows us to feel satisfied that we have it right? It really in my opinion comes down to our definition of faith, faith in the Bible as the Word of God. Is it trustworthy or is it a general guidebook? It's the liberal/conservative battle but on a different front.
In other words, do details in Scripture matter or are they nice to have but not really necessary?
This thread points us in the direction of the actual differences between dispensationalism and covenant theology. It's not the often cited emphasis on the role of the Jews in the end times or the rapture of the church. Those are the cause and effect.
The real differences between dispensationalism and covenant theology is the way in which the fans of the systems view the actual words of the Holy Bible. When a prediction is made on a future event, is it considered fulfilled if a historical event somewhat resembles the prediction or do the details of the prediction matter, should we expect an actual literal fulfillment?
Does Jehovah have the ability or even the desire to give man through the Scriptures enough fine detail on future events to allow us to determine if those events have come to pass or are we expected to fabricate a complex and/or vague scenario that allows us to feel satisfied that we have it right? It really in my opinion comes down to our definition of faith, faith in the Bible as the Word of God. Is it trustworthy or is it a general guidebook? It's the liberal/conservative battle but on a different front.
In other words, do details in Scripture matter or are they nice to have but not really necessary?
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Often times, it is those details which reveal man-made Bible doctrines for what they really are.
Proponents of those doctrines must ignore the scripture which kills their doctrine.
They are like a used car salesman saying... "Look here, but don't look over there."
Some of those commenting here try to ignore, Matthew 12:42, because it kills their 70 AD doctrine.
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so you're both right?
70 AD witnessed Jesus Christ coming into God's Throne Room in heaven, and given glory as all those who caused the Crucifixion -- Jerusalem and the line of Julius Caesar -- were toppled by the conflict
we still await the 2C of JC in God's Throne Room coming back to earth
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Where was Christ between the time below and 70 AD?
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
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Stephen saw Jesus STANDING in judgement, against the Jews, at the right side of GOD....this event was pre 70ad.......
Stoning of Stephen against the Law?
Acts 6:10 And not they were strong/iscuon <2480> (5707) to withstand to the Wisdom and to the Spirit to which he talked.
Acts 7:1 And the High-priest said, "are these things so?"
54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
56 and he said, "behold! I see the heavens having been opened/ διηνοιγμένους<455> and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
58 and dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. His accusers took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul
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Matt 26:64 High Priest "ye shall be seeing Son of Man upon clouds of the heaven"
Matt 26:
63 Yet Jesus was silent.
And the high priest answering said to Him, “I am putting under oath<1844> Thee according of the living God that to us Thou may be saying if Thou are being the Christ, the Son of the God.”
64 “Jesus is saying to him "thou say”.
“Moreover I am saying to ye, from present/now ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of the rights of the Power and coming upon the clouds of the heaven.
65 Then the High Priest rents his garments saying that, “He blasphemes!
What still need we are having of witnesses? Look! now ye hear the blasphemy of Him.
66 What to ye is seeming?”
Yet answering they said “He is deserving of death.
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Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
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Actually, they systematically taught that the end of the present system would come in "earth's six thousandth year," but that the world itself would last for at least another thousand years beyond that time.
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As I said, standing in judgement against those murderous wicked 1st century Jews, which I also view in Revelation.......
70AD Jerusalem is in Revelation 18.............
Acts 7:55 and being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked stedfastly to the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Rev 14:7
saying in a great voice, 'Fear ye God, and give to Him glory, because come did the hour of His judgment, and bow ye before Him who did make the heaven, and the land, and sea, and fountains of waters.'
Rev 15:8
and filled was the Sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power,
and no one was able to enter into the Sanctuary till the seven plagues/blows of the seven messengers may be finished.
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Please visit my 70AD Herod's Temple, Sanctuary and Court thread............
What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY
Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/Fold<833>[Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961>forty two months.
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STRONGS NT 3485: ναός ναός, ναοῦ, ὁ (ναίω to dwell),
the Sept. for הֵיכָל, used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies (in classical Greek used of the sanctuary or cell of a temple, where the image of the god was placed, called also δόμος, σηκός, which is to be distinguished from τό ἱερόν, the whole temple, the entire consecrated enclosure; this distinction is observed also in the Bible;
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Berean Tim
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16Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to [c]Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascendedto My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascendingto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”
18Mary Magdalene came and told the [d]disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.
Insert Daniel 7 here - Jesus ascended, was seated and appeared to the disciples in the evening the same day.
19Then, the same day at evening,being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were [e]assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
For more details search Youtube - Robert Morris Dominion
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