Top Three

keras · Oct 21, 2019

GingerBeer said:
That implies that all who are "in Christ" go to heaven because they are in Christ who is the one who came from there.

This verse is quite clear; NO ONE goes to heaven...
Backed up by John 17:15, John 8:21-23, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, Revelation 5:10, +

GingerBeer · Oct 22, 2019

keras said:
This verse is quite clear; NO ONE goes to heaven...
Backed up by John 17:15, John 8:21-23, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, Revelation 5:10, +

So you say. The facts differ. Enoch went to heaven, Jesus too, And Elijah. So too do the 24 elders and the souls of those martyred under the altar in heaven.

Brian Mcnamee · Oct 22, 2019

Daniel9v9 said:
In my youth, I used to hold to Premillennialism and was quite passionate about it. Now hold to what I suppose you could call it Amillennialism (that is, a rejection of Millennialism). These would be the top 3 reasons as to why:

1. Scripturally - Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father; He is Lord of all and reigns now. Satan was defeated at the cross by the person and works of Jesus Christ, and the Gospel is made known throughout the world. This constitutes His kingdom, and so we are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and this is apprehended through faith in God and in His grace.

2. Historically - Though there were Chiliasts in the early Church, Millenial teachings in our day are different from those ideas; Millennialism that is popular in our day is unhistorical, of questionable origin and have a clear history of development. The teachings are marked by poor, confused and arbitrary exegesis.

3. Practically - Millennialism clashes with the Gospel. It mixes ancient Jewish messianic expectations with modern revelation and ideas, which is contrary to the words of our Lord. Millenial doctrines shape the whole theological system which ultimately distracts from the Gospel and creates different expectations and different missions.

Hi I note your 1st point and want you to consider what psalm 110 says in light of your idea of Jesus at the right hand of the father.

1 The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

In this psalm the LORD said to David's Lord sit at my right hand until....until what? I make your enemies your footstool. This transition is tied to the judgment of nations and the dead bodies filling up is what is described when the kingdom comes. Psalm 2 clarifies this.
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break[fn] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,[fn] lest He[fn] be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

you see in psalm 110 speaks of the same day that the son takes the nations as his inheritance. This is future and jesus is not reigning now over the nations. Imagine the abortion rate and the rampant genocide as well as the gay and trans sexual revolution happening when Jesus rules with a rod of iron? it is crazy to consider current conditions with Jesus as the head. It is perfectly aligned with Satanic philosophy and that is evidence Satan is not yet bound and the kingdom is still to come.

klutedavid · Oct 22, 2019

JM said:
What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I believe Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead, futurist.

I also believe we are firmly in the era of the Gentiles. This current Gentile era is rapidly closing now due to an array of increasing problems in the world.

I do not interpret the scripture, so I do not have a defined eschatology, other than, Jesus will return soon enough.

Daniel9v9 · Oct 22, 2019

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi I note your 1st point and want you to consider what psalm 110 says in light of your idea of Jesus at the right hand of the father.

1 The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

In this psalm the LORD said to David's Lord sit at my right hand until....until what? I make your enemies your footstool. This transition is tied to the judgment of nations and the dead bodies filling up is what is described when the kingdom comes. Psalm 2 clarifies this.
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break[fn] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,[fn] lest He[fn] be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

you see in psalm 110 speaks of the same day that the son takes the nations as his inheritance. This is future and jesus is not reigning now over the nations. Imagine the abortion rate and the rampant genocide as well as the gay and trans sexual revolution happening when Jesus rules with a rod of iron? it is crazy to consider current conditions with Jesus as the head. It is perfectly aligned with Satanic philosophy and that is evidence Satan is not yet bound and the kingdom is still to come.

Christ is already seated at the right hand of the Father and rules now. It will culminate in the second coming, but that does not mean or imply another earthly reign apart from this current reign.

Acts 5:30-32 reads: "The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

And Acts 7:55-56: "But he (Stephen), full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

Matthew 28:18-20: "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

These are just a few verses, but they all speak of a true reign right now.

Notice how in the Psalms, the world is called to repent and believe in Christ, which is the Gospel. It's not talking about a future possible repentance after the second coming.

Christ's current reign does not bring peace on earth, but rather divides (Matthew 10).

Tolworth John · Oct 22, 2019

JM said:
What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

There are only two reasons.
Jesus said he will come again, so he will.
He also said no one knows when he will come again so all schemes theroies that seek to say how and when are automaticly wrong.

Douggg · Oct 22, 2019

JM said:
What are the top three reasons you hold to the eschatological position you have now? If you feel up to it please state your position (example Premil, Pretrib, Futurist, etc) This is open to all, to anyone willing to share their theological reflections, thanks in advance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Love and fear God, be meek and humble before the Lord and walk with Him.

Futurist, anytime rapture view - rapture could happen pre-70th week or it may not, but has to happen before the Day of the Lord begins.

Dave L · Oct 22, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Again, I'm not going to argue it with you, the timing, the precedence, or your imaginary 'top dogs'.

It's DOCUMENTED fact. Published, in print.

Dave L · Oct 22, 2019

keras said:
I am a futurist, I believe we Christians have an amazing future! We must stand firm in our faith and trust the Lord for our protection during the fiery trial ahead. 1 Peter 4:12
What WILL happen:

The enemies of the Lord gather - Micah 4:11-12, Ezekiel 36:2

They conspire to attack Israel - Psalms 83:1-8, Isaiah 21:2

They prepare their weapons - Psalms 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14 [as is the situation right NOW]

At the moment of attack, God will use His Creation: the sun to send fire - Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-43, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17

The sun will explode with an extremely bright flash and the moon will reflect bright red - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Habakkuk 3:4-5

The Lord will make their weapons recoil upon themselves, the Electro-Magnetic Pulse hit will cause them to explode - Psalms 7:13-16, Joel 3:4, Obadiah 15

Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection - Psalms 18:11-12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Amos 8:9

A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earth – Joel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18

Everyone on earth will be shocked and terrified - Jeremiah 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Revelation 6:15-17

The atmosphere will be pushed aside – Revelation 6:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4

The whole earth will be enveloped by fire - Isaiah 66:15, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

Only a remnant will survive in the Holy Land - Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13

He will judge the nations, the wicked will die - Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27

His enemies will become ashes - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:2, Matthew 3:12b

Millions will die around the world - Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 13:12

The Lord will protect those who call to Him - Isaiah 43:2, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

But most people will take shelter until it passes. Isaiah 2:19, Revelation 6:15

The survivors will form a One World Govt. - Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12

The Holy Land will be regenerated - Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 33:12-14

And the Lord's faithful Christian people will gather there. - Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9-14

They will become the new nation of Beulah - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jer. 31

They will build a new Temple – Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48

The attack by a Northern army will be won by the Lord – Ezekiel 38:22, Joel 2:20

The leaders of Beulah will sign a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:15

At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah -Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

This commences the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation - Rev 8:2-

Those who kept their faith in God will be taken to a safe place on earth. Daniel 11:32b, Revelation 12:14

3.5 years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign - Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-4

The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them - Jeremiah 4:28

There are plenty more prophesies and details to prove this scenario.
Believe it or not; up to everyone to decide! Psalms 19:11-12, Isaiah 48:6

Your main problem is in determining who Israel is. If God removed the unbelievers from Israel in Romans 11, into whom are those who later accept Christ (believe) reattached to if they are Israel?

SeventyOne · Oct 22, 2019

Dave L said:
It's DOCUMENTED fact. Published, in print.

It should be obvious, but just because something is published doesn't make it fact. Neither does it make the one who did so an expert, or 'top dog', in the subject matter. All you did on that thread was assign or perpetuate an 'expert' status to a couple people then assume everyone would fall into line with what they said.

Dave L · Oct 22, 2019

SeventyOne said:
It should be obvious, but just because something is published doesn't make it fact. Neither does it make the one who did so an expert, or 'top dog', in the subject matter. All you did on that thread was assign or perpetuate an 'expert' status to a couple people then assume everyone would fall into line with what they said.

It's a false doctrine. But published making it a fact the top dogs propagated it.

SeventyOne · Oct 22, 2019

Dave L said:
It's a false doctrine. But published making it a fact the top dogs propagated it.

Ok. Again, I'm not going to argue with you about your fictional 'top dogs'.

Dave L · Oct 22, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Ok. Again, I'm not going to argue with you about your fictional 'top dogs'.

The copy I quoted is in print. It is documented.

BABerean2 · Oct 22, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Pre-trib, because both Isaiah 26 and Revelation 12 give us a glimpse at the rapture, one prior to God's wrath on the whole earth, and the other prior to Satan's wrath on Israel.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

SeventyOne · Oct 22, 2019

Dave L said:
The copy I quoted is in print. It is documented.

Which means nothing about it's validity.

SeventyOne · Oct 22, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

Over the many months, I've seen your posts and watched the plethora of videos you'd provide, but the one hallmark of it all was that I was left with the distinct realization that there was only superficial understanding of the doctrine it was all designed to refute. So, I'll stick with what I have.

Dave L · Oct 22, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Which means nothing about it's validity.

The top dogs wrote their claims and I quoted them if you re-read the OP.

SeventyOne · Oct 22, 2019

Dave L said:
The top dogs wrote their claims and I quoted them if you re-read the OP.

You are trapped in your own little 'top dog' bubble, there aren't any 'top dogs'. I'm sorry you've confused yourself, but now it's time for you to go away.

Dave L · Oct 22, 2019

SeventyOne said:
You are trapped in your own little 'top dog' bubble, there aren't any 'top dogs'. I'm sorry you've confused yourself, but now it's time for you to go away.

Who are the main spokespersons for the rapture heresy? These are your Top Dogs.

BABerean2 · Oct 22, 2019

SeventyOne said:
Over the many months, I've seen your posts and watched the plethora of videos you'd provide, but the one hallmark of it all was that I was left with the distinct realization that there was only superficial understanding of the doctrine it was all designed to refute.

I produced the following video for YouTube, after I discovered the original source of this modern doctrine.
I was surprised that those teaching the doctrine in my church failed to tell those of us sitting in the pews that the doctrine was less than 200 years old.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology

If you truly desire a more complete history of the doctrine, it is found below from other sources.
They will confirm the above.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

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