Peter the Rock / Protestant and Catholic

James Murphy said:

In my experience, people who have problems with the idea off Eternal Security, at the heart of the matter, are really having issues with the concept of salvation by Grace alone through Faith alone.

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BNR32FAN said:

Who’s them?

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Verse 29 simply means that no one can take away our salvation. It does not teach that we cannot walk away from God or be cast away as mentioned in John 15:2 and 15:6

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Albion said:

That's one theory, but it doesn't fit very well with the idea that God does not choose and/or that salvation can be lost. For instance, we often say that the devil is at work deceiving people. Well, in your theory, he has nothing to do with that.

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James Murphy said:

, are really having issues with the concept of salvation by Grace alone through Faith alone.

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Albion said:

That's one theory, but it doesn't fit very well with the idea that God does not choose and/or that salvation can be lost. For instance, we often say that the devil is at work deceiving people. Well, in your theory, he has nothing to do with that.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

You, like most reformed protestants drop blanket statements assuming that Lutherans are "just like every other protestant". We are not (at least the confessional synods). This is not something that protestants want to hear. But, since you have no desire to read a document as small as the Augsburg Confession; I am certain that you don't want to listen to me make a few quotes. I have spent enough time trying to pee up a rope with close minded people.

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BNR32FAN said:

I think Luther was caught up too much with refuting Roman Catholicism that he focused too much on refuting as much as he possibly could about its teachings and in the process lost so much of the apostolic teachings. I would agree that the RCC is way closer to the apostolic teaching than most Protestant Churches.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

Sounds to me like you don't really know much about Confessional Lutheranism. If you read Luther's Augsburg Confession and the "Apology" or Explanation of the Augsburg Confession you will note that both documents were conciliatory, and you might be very surprised to find out just how catholic the Confessional Synods remain to this very day.

Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord
Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

Read these, then we can talk about it.

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BNR32FAN said:

I have no idea why you are assuming that I think Lutherans are like every other Protestant denomination. I have made absolutely no statement to support that presumptuous accusation. Furthermore I think it’s best we just forget about this entire discussion as you refuse to elaborate on exactly which doctrines you claim that I do not understand. How am I supposed to look for evidence of something when I don’t even fully understand exactly what I’m being accused of? Have a blessed day friend.

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BNR32FAN said:

Ok your overlooking key verses that refute eternal security here that I specifically provided. John 15:2 Jesus says The Father cuts off every branch in Me that doesn’t bear fruit. Branches who are in Christ can be cut off by The Father for not bearing fruit. Matthew 25:31-46 and Luke 13:6-9 are two prime examples of this. Then He says to His 11 faithful apostles abide in Me and I in you for without Me you can do nothing. This is an indication that even His 11 faithful apostles were capable of failing to abide in Him. If they were incapable of failing to abide in Him there would be no reason to tell them to abide. They still, just like everyone else, had the free will to either choose to obey God or to reject Him. At no time does anyone lose their free will after receiving the Holy Spirit. In John 15:6 Jesus explains to them the consequences of failing to abide in Him. Anyone who does not abide in Me will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. The word abide means to stay, remain, or continue. This can only refer to believers who are or were in Christ because a person cannot stay or remain somewhere they’ve never been and they can’t continue something they’ve never begun. The word anyone does not exclude believers. Then in verse 7 again Jesus indicates the possibility that His faithful 11 apostles can fail to abide in Him by saying “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” Again in verse 10 He implies the same thing. “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.” All of this is a clear indication that even Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles had a choice to make throughout their life to continue to abide in Christ or not. There was no guarantee of their salvation simply by a one time confession of faith or acknowledgment of Jesus Christ. That’s why Jesus is The Way. He is a way of life not a one time act or belief.

Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted into the Olive Tree (God’s Covenant) that they can be broken off for being conceited or for unbelief and even those who have been broken off can be grafted back in. It is God who grafts people in and breaks them off. We can not graft ourselves in. When we are grafted into God’s covenant He has expectations of His children. Ephesians 5:1-6 is a prime example of this. Notice the letter to the Ephesians is addressed to “the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:” as per Ephesians 1:1. Now notice the warning Paul gives to these saints who are faithful in Christ at the end of chapter 4 and continues into chapter 5.


“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30-32‬ ‭NASB

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Despite the fact that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption we can still grieve the Holy Spirit. Notice in chapter 5 Paul begins with the word “Therefore”. This indicates that he is reiterating on his previous statement. He is telling the faithful saints who are in Christ that God has expectations of them and warning them not to turn back to a sinful way of life otherwise they will receive the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is that they will lose their inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.

You quoted 1 John 2:19

“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:19-24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This does not refer to all believers. Paul says “They went out from us”. Who is “They”? They are antichrists who deny that Jesus is the Son of God and spread lies about God. This does not pertain to everyone who falls from grace by turning back to a sinful way of life or by not abiding in Christ. This is referring to a specific group of people not everyone in general. Look at what he said in verse 24.

“As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Paul says to the believers “let (allow) that abide in you”. I’m Again another indication of a choice that must be made by every believer. Also he say “If what you heard from the beginning abides in you” Again another condition to abiding in Christ which is absolutely crucial to receiving eternal life.

You quoted John 6:37.

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The Greek word translated to the highlighted word comes or cometh is ONLY used in the present or imperfect tense. This means that those who presently and continuously come to Him He will not cast out. We’ve already seen that in John 15 those in Christ who do not bear fruit are cast out and those who do not abide in Christ are cast into the fire. Now some will say that is works based salvation but it’s not. We are justified by faith. What does the word justified mean? It means to be counted, rendered, shown, or evinced as being righteous by God. Once we have been justified by God thru our faith He has forgiven our sins and no longer looks upon our sins which is why our works are no longer filthy rags in His presence because they are of Christ not of us. Christ is abiding in us and working thru us if we allow Him to by adhering to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and don’t grieve the Holy Spirit.

I’ll have to continue later something came up that I must do now. Oh and John 6:40 does not say that Jesus will lose none it says that it is God’s will (desire) that Jesus lose none. The same word will is used in 1 Timothy 2:4 in which we all know that even tho it is God’s desire that all will repent and be saved that is not the case. Not everyone will repent and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 also gives a similar example that God does not want any to perish but that all would repent and be saved. So while God desires that Jesus lose none it does not mean that He will lose none.

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Major1 said:

No Sir, you are incorrect. The very 1st reason I would point out to you is that the term Christian must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer or walked down an aisle or been raised in a Christian family. A Christian is not someone who goes to church. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what makes a Christian. A Christian is a person who has fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior and therefore possesses the Holy Spirit.

2 Corth. 5:17 says...…..
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!”

A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.

A Christian is redeemed.

1 Peter 1:18-19...…...
“For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect”.

The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified.

Romans 5:1...……..
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”.

To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.

A Christian cannot lose salvation.

Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29).

A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Scriptures do NOT TEACH that we can lose our salvation. The idea simply comes from a lack of Bible study to know the truth of Gods Word.

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BNR32FAN said:

How do you interpret John 15:2, John 15:6, and Romans 11:17-23 in a way that doesn’t contradict scriptures and doesn’t contradict eternal security?

As for 2 Cor 5:17 Paul said if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. Amen to that. What about those who fail to abide in Christ like I mentioned in my last post? According to John 15 a person is capable of failing to abide in Him. John 15 speaks of those who are in Christ and are cut off by God and who do not remain in Christ. Romans 6:16 Paul teaches that we are a servant of the one whom we serve. Either a servant of obedience resulting in life or a servant of sin resulting in death.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice in verse 17 he indicates that he is speaking to those who are servants of God. And he says to them in verse 19 “so now present your members as slaves to righteousness resulting in sanctification.” Why did he say that? Did he tell them to present themselves as slaves to righteousness because they are incapable of presenting themselves as slaves to sin resulting in death? There are many indications throughout the scriptures that we must endure to the end to receive eternal life. I know many use 1 John 2:19 as evidence that a person who fails to remain in Christ was never in Christ to begin with. But this interpretation would contradict John 15. Jesus Himself specifically states that some will not remain in Him. If He says that then we must accept that those who are in Christ are capable of turning away from Him if they choose to do so. 1 John 2:19 is referring to a specific group of people and not directed towards all believers in general. John said “they went out from us” in reference to antichrists. He did not say if anyone goes out from us they were not of us. He said “They” referring to specific individuals. Typically in many cases we can often infer that what the Bible teaches to be a true scenario about some individuals can also be applied to all but in this particular case that would cause a contradiction of the scriptures.

Concerning 1 Peter 18-19 Peter also emphasizes the importance of obedience in both chapters 1 and 2.

“Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE "; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭10-12‬ ‭NASB

About Romans 5:1, you said that if loss of salvation is true then God would have to revoke His declaration of righteousness. He wouldn’t have to revoke forgiveness for the sins He has forgiven in the past but He could choose not to forgive a person’s sins after their justification.

About Romans 11 the gift grace is irrevocable. No matter how much we stumble God will always accept us IF we repent and turn back to Him. Romans 11:17-23 clearly says that branches that have been grafted in can be broken off and even grafted in again IF THEY REPENT. Salvation is conditional otherwise once a branch is grafted into the olive tree it cannot be broken off by God as Paul clearly stated.

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concretecamper said:

God pours out His grace without us completing a work of faith.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

Except, there is no such thing. Our sinful nature is at odds with God's grace all the time. We can fall away and be lost. If we die in the faith, only then do we have eternal security.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

Except, there is no such thing. Our sinful nature is at odds with God's grace all the time. We can fall away and be lost. If we die in the faith, only then do we have eternal security.

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Major1 said:

However, losing ones salvation is not Scriptural IMO

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Major1 said:

Romans 5:1-2, & 17...……...
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.... For if by one man's offence death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ".

No one is ever saved by his own works or merit.

Scripture says plainely in Isaiah 64:6...…..
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags".

Justification is the cornerstone of grace. To be justified by God means to be "acquitted" - forgiven of all sin and guilt - and to be considered holy and righteous before Him.

No one is justified - that is, he cannot become holy or righteous - by his own works, obedience or faithfulness. Rather, these things are all the result of a justifying faith in the power of Christ's blood to make us acceptable in God's sight: ……...
Ephesians 2:8-9...
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast".

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concretecamper said:

exactly, and you opinion in my opinion is not based on scripture. It seems you are approaching scripture with a certain belief and you are twisting scripture to fit you preconceived beliefs.

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Major1 said:

Since you have rejected Scripture, why do I need to post what you have already rejected.

But since you asked...…...

Hebrews 5:9...……….
"Once made perfect, he [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation for all who OBEY him".

2 Timothy 2:10...........
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."


2 Corth. 1:6.........….
"And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation."

1 John 5:13...…..
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Matt. 25:46..........
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

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Major1 said:

Jesus taught that once a person truly accepted Christ and became part of his sheep they would never perish.

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BNR32FAN said:

No that is not correct. He said in John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow. He didn’t say they heard my voice and followed.

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concretecamper said:

if you could post something that says salvation cannot be lost, it would help

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