What did the Early Church Fathers write about the return of Christ during 70 AD?

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BABerean2

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Correction - the text says "coming IN the clouds" (Revelation says "with the clouds") and led into the presence of the Ancient of Days. This isn't "seen" with our eyeballs.

Daniel 7:13 ~ In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.


Daniel 7:13

(KJV+) I sawH1934 H2370 in the nightH3916 visions,H2376 and, behold,H718 one like the SonH1247 of manH606 cameH1934 H858 withH5974 the cloudsH6050 of heaven,H8065 and cameH4291 toH5705 the AncientH6268 of days,H3118 and they brought him nearH7127 beforeH6925 him.


H5974
עִם
‛im
eem
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5973: - by, from, like, to (-ward), with.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

H5705
עַד
‛ad
ad
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5704: - X and, at, for, [hither-] to, on, till, (un-) to, until, within.
Total KJV occurrences: 35


.
 
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BABerean2

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Ask the Jews of today that still visit a wall that was built around a pagan Roman Fortress..............


The symbol of the scorpion, which was the symbol of the 10th Roman Legion, can now be seen underground on that wall and proves the wall is a part of Fort Antonia.


.
 
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Biblewriter

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What? I've never heard/read that claim. Please cite your source of that.

That math doesn't even make sense. Isn't John an "early Christian writer"? Barnabus is believed to have written in 100 A.D. How do we go from 400 A.D. (300 + 100) and leap all the way to 2000 A.D.?

If that's true - then what was fulfilled in the year 2000? Or is that a failed prophecy and we should all just quit and go home?
If you add up all the time periods explicitly stated in the Masoretic text of the Old Testament, we find that they add up to exactly 4000 years from the creation of Adam to the birth of Christ. The text of the Septuagint adds 100 years to a number of the time periods, making this same time period last approximately 5500 years. (I do not remember the exact number.) You can find information about this at many websites.

When I said in the year 2000, I ignored the detail that most historians have concluded that when the Gregorian calendar (the one we use) was first set up, they made a four year error. So most of them think our Lord was actually born in 4 BC, by our calendar. And that would make the actual six thousandth year 1996, not 2000.

Of course, nothing in the line of Christ's return happened at that time. So we know one of two things is true. Either the 6000 year prediction is wrong (of which I am certain is the real answer) or neither or the two ancient texts correctly states the actual chronology, as originally recorded by the holy Spirit.
 
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mkgal1

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Thank you. I was able to find all of them except that one. If that quotation is correct, then Tertullian, as well as Clement, and later Julius Africanus, explicitly taught that the seventy weeks had been fulfilled. The rest of them only spoke of the Daniel's prophecy indicating when Christ would come
This is the quote of Origen's "The weeks of years up to the time of Christ the leader that Daniel the prophet predicted were fulfilled" (TPR, IV:1:5). That's fulfillment.

An idea of a pause or parenthetical period of time (Chiliasm) was rejected as heresy by the early church.

Quote: The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century. It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom. And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.


"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."​

As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:



"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."​

This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. Observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was "something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels." Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.


Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. I now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher. Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John, [Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28).

Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."


"Cerinthus required his followers to worship the supreme God.... He promised them a resurrection of their bodies, which would be succeeded by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ.... For Cerinthus supposed that Christ would hereafter return . . . and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine." (Mosheim's Eccl. Hist., Page 50)

"Cerinthus required his followers to retain part of the Mosaical law, but to regulate their lives by the example of Christ: and taught that after the resurrection Christ would reign upon earth, with his faithful disciples, a thousand years, which would be spent in the highest sensual indulgences. This mixture of Judaism and Oriental philosophy was calculated to make many converts, and this sect soon became very numerous. They admitted a part of St. Matthew's Gospel but rejected the rest, and held the epistles of St. Paul in great abhorrence." (Gregory and Ruter's Church History., Page 30)

"Even though the floods of the nations and the vain superstitions of heretics should revolt against their true faith, they are overcome, and shall be dissolved as the foam, because Christ is the rock by which, and on which, the church is founded. And thus it is overcome by no [16] traces of maddened men. Therefore they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years; who think, that is to say, with the heretic Cerinthus. For the kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints." (From a commentary on the Apocalypse, by Victorinus, Ante-Nicene Fathers)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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yeshuaslavejeff said:
Like Babylon. (which has been around a lot longer than Christianity)
So ?
So respond to post #47..................
Post 47
yeshuaslavejeff said:
Like Babylon. (which has been around a lot longer than Christianity)
So ?

LittleLambofJesus said:
So respond to post #47..................
Post 47
yeshuaslavejeff said:
No. If you have a question, ask it plainly.
There was no question in that post ;)

Jesus' famous post "Last Supper" Garden Discourse.....

Jhn 16:25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 29 His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech!

1Co 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
LittleLambofJesus said:
There was no question in that post ;)

Jhn 16:25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 29 His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech!

1Co 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
When did plain figure of speech escape understanding ?
Why remain in something that is carnal / not from Scripture ?

What "profit" , what "use", what possible "benefit" is there in opposing Jesus' and His Word, willingly to accept something men (or demons?) thought up in place of God's Word (as Jesus exposed man's traditions not being good to place over God's Word) ?
Ask the Jews of today that still visit a wall that was built around a pagan Roman Fortress..............

Jesus never mentioned walls in His 70AD Jerusalem/Temple Discourse..........
The Sanctuary and Temple was the heart and soul of OC Jerusalem......not the walls

Matthew 24:

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these? Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”
Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings. Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>
Luke 21:6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>
[Luke 19:44]
==================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

Three celebrated walls surrounded the city
on every side, except that which was deemed inaccessible, and there it was defended by one wall only. The most ancient of these walls was remarkable for its great strength, and was, moreover, erected on a hanging rock, and fortified by sixty towers. on the middle wall there were fourteen towers only ; but on the third, which was also distinguished by the extraordinary merit of its architecture, there were no less than ninety. The celebrated tower of Psephinos, before which Titus at first encamped, was erected on this latter wall, and even excelled it in the superior style of its architecture : it was seventy cubits high and had eight angles, each of which commanded most extensive and beautiful prospects. In clear weather, the spectator had from them a view of the Mediterranean sea, of Arabia, and of the whole extent of the Jewish dominions. Besides this there were three other towers of great magnitude, named Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne. The two former, famed for their strength and grandeur, were nearly ninety cubits high ; the latter, for its valuable curiosities, beauty and elegance, was about fifty five cubits. They were all built of white marble ; and so exquisite was the workmanship, that each of them appeared as if it had been hewn out of an immense single block of it...........

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory. There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection.
=======================================
New Evidence that "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Roman Fort Antonia

071b37f3e9095e8b7acef5473508df62.jpg


maxresdefault.jpg


So people today don't know ?
Just like people in century one, two, three, four, ... ... ... through the twentieth century ?
Don't the Jews know? After all, it was their Temple and Sanctuary that got decimated in 70AD.......

What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.
 
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mkgal1

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proves the wall is a part of Fort Antonia.
Which is a a pagan Roman Fortress, right (Roman army barracks)?


While overlooking Jerusalem, the Antonia Fortress was garrisoned with 600 Roman soldiers, who watched over the Temple courts in order to preserve order. The Bible spoke about the Antonia Fortress as a barracks (Acts 21:37), and it was here that Paul gave an address to the people (Acts 22:1-21). Paul was held in the fortress in protective custody until a military escort took him to Caesarea (Acts 23:12-24, 31-35). ~ The Antonia Fortress Roman Soldier Barracks - Bible History Online
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal said:
Correction - the text says "coming IN/with the clouds" (Revelation says "with the clouds") and led into the presence of the Ancient of Days. This isn't "seen" with our eyeballs.

Daniel 7:13 ~ In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.


Daniel 7:13

(KJV+) I sawH1934 H2370 in the nightH3916 visions,H2376 and, behold,H718 one like the SonH1247 of manH606 cameH1934 H858 withH5974 the cloudsH6050 of heaven,H8065 and cameH4291 toH5705 the AncientH6268 of days,H3118 and they brought him nearH7127 beforeH6925 him.


H5974
עִם
‛im
eem
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5973: - by, from, like, to (-ward), with.
Total KJV occurrences: 23


H5705
עַד
‛ad
ad
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5704: - X and, at, for, [hither-] to, on, till, (un-) to, until, within.
Total KJV occurrences: 35


.
Maybe you don't recognize it - but that supports MY assertion not yours. You'd stated "on the clouds" as if Jesus was riding clouds. That's not what the text conveys (or else עַד would have been used) . Thanks for the support.

Daniel 7:13 Lexicon: "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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yeshuaslavejeff said:
When did plain figure of speech escape understanding ?
Why remain in something that is carnal / not from Scripture ?

What "profit" , what "use", what possible "benefit" is there in opposing Jesus' and His Word, willingly to accept something men (or demons?) thought up in place of God's Word (as Jesus exposed man's traditions not being good to place over God's Word) ?
LittleLambofJesus said:
Ask the Jews of today that still visit a wall that was built around a pagan Roman Fortress..............
The symbol of the scorpion, which was the symbol of the 10th Roman Legion, can now be seen underground on that wall and proves the wall is a part of Fort Antonia.
.
Great info BAB.

The "scorpion" appears to also be the name of the Roman catapults that helped bring down the walls of 70AD Jerusalem as mentioned by Josephus and the "great hail" in Revelation 16.......

It seems they shot both arrows and slung boulders......

Revelation 16:21 "..great HAIL fell on men as a talent weight.." Josephus

Revelation 9:5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months, and their torment<929> [is] as the torment<929> of a scorpion<4651>, when it may strike a man;
10 They had tails<3769> like scorpions<4651>, and there were stings<2759> in their tails<3769>. Their power was to hurt men five months.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
.........The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation. This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.
Revelation 16:21 And Hail, great as talent-weight<5006>, is descending out of the Heaven upon the Men, and the men blaspheme the God out of the blow of the Hail, that great is the blow of it, tremendous. [# 5464 used in Ezekiel 38:22]
==========================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


.................As a consequence, the legions were able to build their redoubts almost without any trouble; soon, their catapults started to throw heavy stones into the city. Under cover of this artillery fire, the Roman soldiers could start to bash the northern wall with their battering-rams.


Uncovered ancient city wall in Jerusalem tells story of great Jewish

An archaeological dig has revealed Roman ammunition that is thought have been used to help break through a protective city wall prior to the destruction of the Second Temple.

1018316866.jpg


Roman-Engines-of-War.jpg




Bible-Only-Revelation-Commentary-Roman-Catapult-arrows-Rev8-7-hail-fire-blood-First-Jewish-War-destruction-Jerusalem-70AD.jpg


Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

IBSS - The Bible - Revelation

100 lb. Hailstones
Revelation 16:21 tells how huge hailstones fell from heaven weighing a talent which is about 100 pounds. Josephus describes 100 lb. white stones coming from Roman catapults down on the Jews in Jerusalem (Jewish Wars, Book 5.6.3).

https://www.kennethgentry.com/catalog/apocalypse.htm
The prophecy of the talent weight hailstones has found a similar fulfillment in the siege of Jerusalem, according to the preterist. Josephus states of the catapults of the Roman tenth legion: "the stones that were cast, were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further.... As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color" (Wars 5:6:3). These stones not only had the weight required by John, but were the same color as hail.
The Babylon of Revelation is Referring to Jerusalem

Great hail weighing one talent is said to fall upon men there (Revelation 16:21).
Josephus tells of the Roman catapults being used to cast whitewashed boulders over the walls of Jerusalem and they each weighed one talent.
====================================
Go to 1 minute mark for catapults [best viewed full screen]

 
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Christopher0121

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Futurism has been so popular we have at least two or three generations of Christians that don't realize that 90% percent of commentary prior to the rise of Dispensationalism connected the Olivet Discourse with the Roman siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. For example commentators such as Albert Barnes, Matthew Henry, Ethelbert William Bullinger, Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, ... and the list could go on and on and on.

For the majority of Christian history, commentators, historians, etc. have connected the Olivet Discourse to the events of AD 70. However, most were in a "Historicist" eschatological framework.

The Futurist notions held by most modern Evangelical Dispensationalists is really quite new, if truth be told.

Now, Preterists and Partial Preterists see the Olivet Discourse much the same as the historical Historicists. However, Preterists do not speculate over the past 2,000 years of history to connect events with alleged prophecies. Nor to Preterists speculate over current events in newspapers to connect events with alleged prophecies. Preterists focus in on the immediate events unfolding with the destruction of Jerusalem and elaborate on the reality of Christ coming in judgment against the rebellious and blasphemous Jewish system that betrayed their Lord and had Him crucified.

Some Preterists believe that Christ's 2nd Coming was in spirit at this time and from that moment forward the dead are glorified in spirit and taken to Heaven for eternity and that it will be this way until the end of humanity. Some Preterists believe that this coming in judgment wasn't the 2nd Coming, which they hold to be a bodily coming. These Preterists are often Amillennial or Post Millennial in their eschatology and are also called, "Partial Preterists".

When I first became a Christian I was really into Futurism. I was constantly watching the news and looking at current events for "signs" of the end times. Preachers I knew and loved would preach on the end times and have us so prepared to see the "soon coming of the Lord". We feared Gorbachev's birth mark as being the mark of the beast. We feared the computer in Bussels. We feared the EU. We feared the United Nations. We feared FEMA. With every new current event, the prophetic "possibilities" changed and shifted. The Beast was supposed to be from Europe, then Russia, then the United Nations, then Washington DC, then the Islamic State... and the shifting never ended. It was fun and exciting trying to connect these things to prophetic events. However, it began to dawn on me... this constant shifting only illustrated a theological instability.

Since becoming a Preterist I see how the Olivet Discourse and most of Revelation were fulfilled and witnessed by that very generation. The judgment and mercy of God is seen in the tapestry of the events as they unfolded. God's fearsome manner of dealing with Jerusalem is a living reminder of how God judges nations that increase in wickedness and rebellion against Him, lending the prophesies to be a dire warning to the United States and the Western world today. And as it relates to future expectation, all that remains to place our faith in is the Blessed Hope of Christ's second coming which might be tonight, tomorrow, or 100 years from now. And when He returns, it's over. Nothing more need to transpire but the cosmos dissolving, a single Judgment for all souls, and the eternal state. It's sweet simplicity really.

For the Full Preterist... the resurrection of the dead (in spirit after death) and the final judgment have been transpiring since AD 70 when Christ came to rule and reign in Spirit (having destroyed the Jewish system). The resurrection and final judgment continues even today as people die and are gathered by the angels to stand before the throne for judgment. Their reward being the eternal state of Heavenly bliss... or the torments of an eternal Hell. No earthly prophecy is expected to be fulfilled beyond dying, judgment, and one's eternal disposition relating to their being placed in either Heaven or Hell.

For the Preterist, and for those who have felt shell shocked by repeated, and constantly revised, extravagant and sensational claims of Futurism that have never materialized, this simplicity brings great peace and assurance.
 
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Biblewriter

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This is the quote of Origen's "The weeks of years up to the time of Christ the leader that Daniel the prophet predicted were fulfilled" (TPR, IV:1:5). That's fulfillment.

An idea of a pause or parenthetical period of time (Chiliasm) was rejected as heresy by the early church.

Quote: The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century. It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom. And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.


"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."​
As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:



"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."​
This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. Observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was "something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels." Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.


Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. I now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher. Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John, [Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28).

Let this be a rebuke to modern Millennial advocates. They claim their doctrine is well founded in the Apocalypse of John. But John called the founder of their theory "that enemy of the truth."


"Cerinthus required his followers to worship the supreme God.... He promised them a resurrection of their bodies, which would be succeeded by exquisite delights in the Millenary reign of Christ.... For Cerinthus supposed that Christ would hereafter return . . . and would reign with his followers a thousand years in Palestine." (Mosheim's Eccl. Hist., Page 50)

"Cerinthus required his followers to retain part of the Mosaical law, but to regulate their lives by the example of Christ: and taught that after the resurrection Christ would reign upon earth, with his faithful disciples, a thousand years, which would be spent in the highest sensual indulgences. This mixture of Judaism and Oriental philosophy was calculated to make many converts, and this sect soon became very numerous. They admitted a part of St. Matthew's Gospel but rejected the rest, and held the epistles of St. Paul in great abhorrence." (Gregory and Ruter's Church History., Page 30)

"Even though the floods of the nations and the vain superstitions of heretics should revolt against their true faith, they are overcome, and shall be dissolved as the foam, because Christ is the rock by which, and on which, the church is founded. And thus it is overcome by no [16] traces of maddened men. Therefore they are not to be heard who assure themselves that there is to be an earthly reign of a thousand years; who think, that is to say, with the heretic Cerinthus. For the kingdom of Christ is now eternal in his saints." (From a commentary on the Apocalypse, by Victorinus, Ante-Nicene Fathers)
While it it true that the heretic Cerinthus taught a future thousand year period. The early chrch did not get their ideas from him. And the rest of what you posted here has been clearly and repeatedly demonstrated to be radically incorrect. Essentially every one of the early teachers clearly taught a thousand year reign, including Victorinus. For, although you correctly quoted the text from the Ante-Nicene Fathers. That text was not written by Victorinus. For the copy included in that book is a copy that was edited by Jerome, who flatly stated that he wrote that part of the document.

Jerome’s letter to Anatolius, which is the prologue to his edition of Victorinus' commentary:

"Those crossing over the perilous seas find different dangers. If a storm of winds has become violent, it is a terror; if the moderate air has calmed the back of the elements, lying calm, they fear traps. Thus is seen in this book which you have sent to me, which is seen to contain the explanation of the Apocalypse by Victorinus. Also, it is dangerous, and opens to the barkings of detractors, to judge the short works of eminent men. For even earlier Papias, the bishop of Hierapolis, and Nepos, the bishop of parts of Egypt, perceived of the kingdom of the thousand years just as Victorinus. And because you are in your letters entreating me, I do not want to delay, but nor do I want to scorn praying. I immediately unwound the books of the greats, and what I found in their commentaries about the kingdom of the thousand years, I added to the little work of Victorinus, erasing from there those things which he perceived according to the letter.

"From the beginning of the book to the sign of the cross, we have corrected things which are the corruptions of inexperience of scribes. Know that from there to the end of the book is added. Now it is yours to judge, and to confirm what pleases. If our life will be made longer and the Lord will give health, for you, our most capable genius will sweat over this book, dearest Anatolius."

source:
Victorinus, In Apocalypsin – biblicalia
also available at:
St. Victorinus of Petau  |  Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism  |   The Preterist Archive www.preteristarchive.com,reformed,partial,orthodoxy,orthodox,futurist,preterism,historicism,fulfillment,apocalypse

Jerome also wrote, in his treatise titled "Lives of Illusterous Men":

“Papias, the pupil of John, bishop of Hierapolis in Asia, wrote only five volumes, which he entitled Exposition of the words of our Lord, in which, when he had asserted in his preface that he did not follow various opinions but had the apostles for authority, he said “I considered what Andrew and Peter said, what Philip, what Thomas, what James, what John, what Matthew or any one else among the disciples of our Lord, what also Aristion and the elder John, disciples of the Lord had said, not so much that I have their books to read, as that their living voice is heard until the present day in the authors themselves.” It appears through this catalogue of names that the John who is placed among the disciples is not the same as the elder John whom he places after Aristion in his enumeration. This we say moreover because of the opinion mentioned above, where we record that it is declared by many that the last two epistles of John are the work not of the apostle but of the presbyter.
He is said to have published a Second coming of Our Lord or Millennium. Irenæus and Apollinaris and others who say that after the resurrection the Lord will reign in the flesh with the saints, follow him. Tertullian also in his work On the hope of the faithful, Victorinus of Petau and Lactantius follow this view.”
NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS
SECOND SERIES
Volume 3
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Futurism has been so popular we have at least two or three generations of Christians that don't realize that 90% percent of commentary prior to the rise of Dispensationalism connected the Olivet Discourse with the Roman siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. For example commentators such as Albert Barnes, Matthew Henry, Ethelbert William Bullinger, Adam Clarke, Thomas Coke, ... and the list could go on and on and on. For the majority of Christian history, commentators, historians, etc. have connected the Olivet Discourse to the events of AD 70. However, most were in a "Historicist" eschatological framework.

The Futurist notions held by most modern Evangelical Dispensationalists is really quite new, if truth be told.

Now, Preterists and Partial Preterists see the Olivet Discourse much the same as the historical Historicists. However, Preterists do not speculate over the past 2,000 years of history to connect events with alleged prophecies. Nor to Preterists speculate over current events in newspapers to connect events with alleged prophecies. Preterists focus in on the immediate events unfolding with the destruction of Jerusalem and elaborate on the reality of Christ coming in judgment against the rebellious and blasphemous Jewish system that betrayed their Lord and had Him crucified.

Some Preterists believe that Christ's 2nd Coming was in spirit at this time and from that moment forward the dead are glorified in spirit and taken to Heaven for eternity and that it will be this way until the end of humanity. Some Preterists believe that this coming in judgment wasn't the 2nd Coming, which they hold to be a bodily coming. These Preterists are often Amillennial or Post Millennial in their eschatology and are also called, "Partial Preterists".

When I first became a Christian I was really into Futurism. I was constantly watching the news and looking at current events for "signs" of the end times. Preachers I knew and loved would preach on the end times and have us so prepared to see the "soon coming of the Lord". We feared Gorbachev's birth mark as being the mark of the beast. We feared the computer in Bussels. We feared the EU. We feared the United Nations. We feared FEMA. With every new current event, the prophetic "possibilities" changed and shifted. The Beast was supposed to be from Europe, then Russia, then the United Nations, then Washington DC, then the Islamic State... and the shifting never ended. It was fun and exciting trying to connect these things to prophetic events. However, it began to dawn on me... this constant shifting only illustrated a theological instability.

Since becoming a Preterist I see how the Olivet Discourse and most of Revelation were fulfilled and witnessed by that very generation. The judgment and mercy of God is seen in the tapestry of the events as they unfolded. God's fearsome manner of dealing with Jerusalem is a living reminder of how God judges nations that increase in wickedness and rebellion against Him, lending the prophesies to be a dire warning to the United States and the Western world today. And as it relates to future expectation, all that remains to place our faith in is the Blessed Hope of Christ's second coming which might be tonight, tomorrow, or 100 years from now. And when He returns, it's over. Nothing more need to transpire but the cosmos dissolving, a single Judgment for all souls, and the eternal state. It's sweet simplicity really.

For the Full Preterist... the resurrection of the dead (in spirit after death) and the final judgment have been transpiring since AD 70 when Christ came to rule and reign in Spirit (having destroyed the Jewish system). The resurrection and final judgment continues even today as people die and are gathered by the angels to stand before the throne for judgment. Their reward being the eternal state of Heavenly bliss... or the torments of an eternal Hell. No earthly prophecy is expected to be fulfilled beyond dying, judgment, and one's eternal disposition relating to their being placed in either Heaven or Hell.

For the Preterist, and for those who have felt shell shocked by extravagant and sensational claims of Futurism that have never materialized, this brings great peace and assurance.
Excellent! :oldthumbsup:

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Partial Preterism:
Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.

The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Amillennialism:
"no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
==========================
Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
======================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

=======================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
======================================
Hosea 5:2 - The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.


 
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mkgal1

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And the rest of what you posted here has been clearly and repeatedly demonstrated to be radically incorrect.
Nothing has been demonstrated to be radically incorrect (nor do I ever expect that to be the outcome). These debates have gone on for years - and will probably only branch out into more and separate arguments the further away we get from the time when Jesus walked this earth.

We all have our own journey of faith (and ought to respect others in theirs).
 
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Biblewriter

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Nothing has been demonstrated to be radically incorrect (nor do I ever expect that to be the outcome). These debates have gone on for years - and will probably only branch out into more and separate arguments the further away we get from the time when Jesus walked this earth.

We all have our own journey of faith (and ought to respect others in theirs).
Here are some notes from my own personal studies:


The earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy known to modern scholars was Papias, who is thought to have written between 110 and 140 A. D. All of his writings have been lost, but Eusebius said concerning him:

“The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth.” (“The Church History,” by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, sections 12-13.)

The next commentator on prophecy that we know about was Justyn, who is called Justin Martyr, because he died as a martyr. He said:

“And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.” (“Dialogue With Trypho,” by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXXI.)

The next one we know about was Irenaeus, who said concerning “the resurrection of the just:”

“It behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXII, section 1.)

Tertullian expanded on this, saying:

But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem... We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name's sake... After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment:” (“Against Maricon,” by Tertullian, tran. Dr. Holmes, book III, chapter XXV, “Ante-Nicene Fathers,” ed. Alexander Roberts, D.D. and James Donaldson, LL., as revised in the American Edition by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D., vol. 3, pg. 343.)

Hippolytus said:
“And so it is absolutely necessary for six-thousand years to be fulfilled, so that the Sabbath rest may come, the holy day, in which God rested from all his works which he began to do. The Sabbath is a model and an image of the coming kingdom of the saints, when the saints shall coreign with Christ, when he arrives from heaven, as also John in his Apocalypse describes. For a day of the Lord is as a thousand years. And so since in six days God made all things, it is necessary for six thousand years to be fulfilled. For they are not yet fulfilled, as John says, ‘Five have fallen, but one is,’ such is the sixth millennium, ‘the other has not yet come,’ saying ‘the other’ he describes the seventh millenniumnin which there shall be rest.” (“Commentary on Daniel,” by Hippolytus, 23.4-23.6, tran. T.C. Schmidt, pp. 140-141.)

Commodianus said “Of the First Ressurection:”

“They shall come also who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist, and they themselves live for the whole time, and receive blessings because they have suffered evil things; and they themselves marrying, beget for a thousand years. There are prepared all the revenues of the earth, because the earth renewed without end pours forth abundantly... he who is evil is hedged up in torment, for the sake of the nourishment of the righteous. But from the thousand years God will destroy all those evils.” (“The Instructions of Commodianus,” by Commodianus, chapter 24, “Ante-Nicene Fathers,” ed. Alexander Roberts, D.D. and James Donaldson, LL., as revised in the American Edition by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D., vol. 4.)

Lactantius, in speaking of “the Almighty,” said:

“But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command... Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges... About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God.” (“The DivineInstitutes,” by Lactantius, trans. William Fletcher, D.D., chapter 72,“Ante Nicene Fathers,” volume 7.)

In addition to these, Jerome said that Victorinus of Petau and Apollinaris follow “this view,” (“Lives of Illustrious Men,” by Jerome, trans. Ernest Cushing Richardson, Ph.D., chapter XVIII, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers,” Second Series, Philip Schaff, ed. D.D., LL.D. and Henry Wace, D.D..) and Dionysius said many thought that “a certain composition by Nepos,” “demonstrated incontestably that there will be a (temporal) reign of Christ upon the earth.” In the following paragraph Dionysius added that “in the Arsinoitic prefecture... this doctrine was current long ago, and caused such division, that schisms and apostasies took place I in whole churches.” (“On the Promises,” by Dionysius, trans. S. D. F. Salmond, M.A., part 1, paragraphs 1 and 2) This last statement is proof that the doctrine of a temporal “reign of Christ upon the earth” was not only taught, but widely circulated, “long” before the mid third century. (Dionysius is thought to have been Bishop of Alexandria from about 247-265.)
 
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BABerean2

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and the "great hail" in Revelation 16.......


Exo 9:18 Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.
Exo 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.
Exo 9:20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
Exo 9:21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.
Exo 9:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
Exo 9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
Exo 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
Exo 9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.
Exo 9:26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.

.
 
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Hank77

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So you do not know if Josephus really wrote something like that and the church of that era is totally silent about the topic which is really suspicious if something so big happened.
Post #20, refers to writings by the early church fathers.


The Jewish Talmud is not silent about what happened in 70 AD and the Jews do accept the writings to be of Josephus and that they are accurate.

The Talmud recounts the sorry tale of a woman who killed and consumed her own baby, recalling the verse in Leviticus 26:29, "You will eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters you will eat."
Starvation

Josephus and his writing have long been accepted by the Christian church and were referred to by Christian commentators such as Gill, Henry, Clarke, etc.
 
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BABerean2

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Maybe you don't recognize it - but that supports MY assertion not yours. You'd stated "on the clouds" as if Jesus was riding clouds. That's not what the text conveys (or else עַד would have been used) . Thanks for the support.

Daniel 7:13 Lexicon: "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

We will let the unbiased witnesses here celebrate your victory, if you can find any.

So far, you have not been able to answer the question of the thread.

Nobody saw Jesus during 70 AD, because He remained seated at the Father's right hand.


.
 
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mkgal1

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So far, you have not been able to answer the question of the thread.

Nobody saw Jesus during 70 AD.
The problem is that no one has made that claim. So you've set up a straw man argument.

"The son of man coming with the clouds" is Christ Jesus in the presence of God the Father (the Ancient of Days). It's His enthronement IN HEAVEN.

What was "seen" were the signs of that being manifested.
 
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Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[Priests/Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854> and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Gentiles/Nations.
And the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.


In context...

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

What do you have to ignore to make your 70 AD claims work?

What do some forms of Preterism have in common with Dispensationalism?
They both have more than one Second Coming of Christ.


.
 
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