From CATCH-22 | meaning in the Cambridge English DictionaryWhat matters isn't what man says or claims to believe; what matters is what God says. He does give us a systematic breakdown of soteriology.
Man is in a “catch 22” in being saved. It is written that
I don't really see any catch 22 in any of these verses., “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:44. “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’” - John 6:65. Some who believe in free will to choose salvation add to the Scriptures something that is not there, that Jesus gives us a choice to come unto Him. But as is also written, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” - John 14:6. So we cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God.
Man has another “catch 22” to salvation. It is written that we all have a will, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.” - Romans 7:18. So, we are not robots. And our mind is against God, “7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” - Romans 8:7-8. And none does seek after God, 11 “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” - Romans 3:11-12. We will not find God if we do not seek Him, and yet we don't. How then are we saved?
John 4:23-24 - “23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” God seeks His chosen out, it is not the other way around. We cannot worship in spirit and in truth if we do not believe the Scriptures. We can only believe the Scriptures and come to Jesus for salvation if or when the Father gives us that saving grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
It is not Arminius or Calvin, but the truth of God's own word that matters.
From CATCH-22 | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
"an impossible situation where you are prevented from doing one thing until you have done another thing that you cannot do until you have done the first thing"
I don't really see any catch 22 in any of these verses.
Could you explain how salvation is a catch 22?
Thanks.
It is impossible for us to come to Jesus and be saved of our own will because our will is against God. No one seeks after God, no, not one. the Bible tells us it is impossible:We cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God.
What is true is the doctrine of total depravity. But unlike reformed theology, total depravity doesn't include an inability to believe.It is impossible for us to come to Jesus and be saved of our own will because our will is against God. No one seeks after God, no, not one.
What is impossible is for man to save himself. He cannot do that. That's what is impossible for man to do.the Bible tells us it is impossible:
Mark 10:26-27 - “26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, ‘Who then can be saved?’
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, ‘With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.’”
First, good for you in writing to GTY with a question about reconciling what MacArthur teaches with what can be clearly read in the Word.Here's a copy of a letter I sent to Grace to You. I have yet to receive a response. Perhaps someone who believes in election here would care to respond?
I hope GTY will respond. If they do, please share their response in this thread.Dear Grace to You,
I am writing in the hopes you can help me. I have been listening to Dr. Macarthur's teaching on election (aka predestination) and have found it very troubling with what I read in my Lord's Holy word. I was hoping you could maybe help me to reconcile the teaching of election with these specific verses.
In Acts 20:26-27 Paul said: "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."
This seems like an odd statement from someone who affirmed the doctrine of Election. The flip side to this coin is that Paul believed had he not proclaimed the whole counsel of God that he would have been guilty of the blood of all men. Clearly this implies that he believes the choice is up to the hearers and his actions of presenting the choice frees him of any guilt to rather or not they accept the truth.
Then in 1Timothy 2:3-4 Paul writes: " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
The problem I have is that if according to scripture God desires "ALL" men to be saved but only elects a certain small few to be saved, then doesn't that turn God into a schizophrenia who claims to desire one thing however "elects" to do something quite different?
Likewise in 2Peter 3:9 Peter writes: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
Here Peter tells us that God's will is that not any should perish but should come to repentance. Again if that is really the "will" of God and yet He "elects" to only save some while not giving the majority even the ability to repent and escape perishing, what does that say about God?
In Ezekiel 18:23 God makes it clear that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He prefers that they should repent and live. Apparently this would indicate the choice is theirs apart from so-called election. In 1st Corinthians 9:22 Paul makes it clear that he believes the things that he does do indeed have an Eternal effect on the destination of others. This seems to me to fly in the face of the doctrine of election. In Matthew 22 Jesus gives us a parable of the great wedding feast and at the end of this parable he said many are called but few are chosen. At the wedding feast in the parable the call went out to whosoever Will however the ones who were chosen to remain at the feast where those who chose to respond, and to respond in the way the king expected by wearing the Kings wedding garments.
I agree that no one can come to the father except the father draws him, however in John 12: 32 Jesus made it clear that if he be lifted up He will draw all men. Many other scriptures I read that conflict with the doctrine of election. However these are the really big ones I need help reconciling.
First, good for you in writing to GTY with a question about reconciling what MacArthur teaches with what can be clearly read in the Word.
Second, I believe in election, but not the Calvinist version. Calvinists believe that God elects people to salvation by regenerating the "elect", which allows them to believe.
So, in effect, God chooses who will believe. That is definitely not found in the Bible.
The biblical doctrine of election is about being chosen for service. In fact, God has chosen every believer for service. This is found in Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Paul identifies who the "us" in v.4 are in v.19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength
So, v.4 is saying that "God elects believers...to be holy and blameless. That is service.
Here are all the examples of who God has elected:
Examples of Election
1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."
2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him… v.19 defines “us” as “those who believe”. 1 Pet 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nations people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.
5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.
Apostles: John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” {Judas was chosen to betray the Lord}
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.
1 Cor 1:27-28 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
What is obvious is that all of these examples represent being chosen or elected for service, and none were chosen for salvation.
I hope GTY will respond. If they do, please share their response in this thread.
Thanks
I agree with this. Also, Arminians think if we have the freedom to choose Christ, we have the same freedom to lose salvation, which is even worse.Yes that is the kind of election the Bible teaches and I strongly hold to. Thank you so much for your comments. John A. and others seem to be motivated under the premise that if we have the freedom to choose to receive Christ, then we will have grounds to boast in heaven. Is that your impression as well?
Amen to that!I find that to be a ridiculous argument.
And to you as well!! It's always a pleasure to find other believers who understand Scripture and aren't led astray by false theologies!The very nature of a gift is that it must be freely received. However the recipient has no grounds to boast over his reception of the gift. I can't imagine anyone in heaven bragging about how good they are at receiving God's gift.
God's blessings to you my friend.
Brad
I agree with this. Also, Arminians think if we have the freedom to choose Christ, we have the same freedom to lose salvation, which is even worse.
Amen to that!
And to you as well!! It's always a pleasure to find other believers who understand Scripture and aren't led astray by false theologies!
Amen to that!!Yes I lived the first ten years of my Christian walk believing I could slip and lose my salvation. Until one day God quickened 1 Peter 1:5 to me. I am kept by the power of the one who spoke the universe into existence, not by the power of me. The Lord showed me I am like a man who was drowning in the ocean and the coast guard rescuer swooped in and reached out His nail scarred hand saying "take my hand and live." I freely took His hand and the rest was up to Him. He pulled me out and wisked me off to safety. I am now on dry land. I may stumble or fall, but there's no chance I would end up back in the middle of the ocean.
What matters isn't what man says or claims to believe; what matters is what God says. He does give us a systematic breakdown of soteriology.
Man is in a “catch 22” in being saved. It is written that, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:44. “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’” - John 6:65. Some who believe in free will to choose salvation add to the Scriptures something that is not there, that Jesus gives us a choice to come unto Him. But as is also written, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.” - John 14:6. So we cannot come to the Father except by Jesus, and we cannot come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father. How then are we saved? We are saved by God’s having chosen His saints from the foundation of the world; not by man’s choosing God.
Man has another “catch 22” to salvation. It is written that we all have a will, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.” - Romans 7:18. So, we are not robots. And our mind is against God, “7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” - Romans 8:7-8. And none does seek after God, 11 “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” - Romans 3:11-12. We will not find God if we do not seek Him, and yet we don't. How then are we saved?
John 4:23-24 - “23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” God seeks His chosen out, it is not the other way around. We cannot worship in spirit and in truth if we do not believe the Scriptures. We can only believe the Scriptures and come to Jesus for salvation if or when the Father gives us that saving grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
It is not Arminius or Calvin, but the truth of God's own word that matters.
I haven't commented in a while, so here we go again.It is impossible for us to come to Jesus and be saved of our own will because our will is against God. No one seeks after God, no, not one. the Bible tells us it is impossible:
Mark 10:26-27 - “26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, ‘Who then can be saved?’
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, ‘With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.’”
Maybe you can 'indentify' ""you folks"?To answer each of the posts on this page alone would require a lengthy post, in order to address each point being made. I would be repeating myself from earlier posts I made in this thread. People don't generally read lengthy posts. What I have posted from the Bible should be sufficient, but with you folks, it is not.
That is quite an assertion ... Could you please support that assertion with credible evidence?You simply don't believe in ALMIGHTY GOD.
I seem to recall several texts in which we are told to choose. Additionally Jesus said,You call Him a liar and impotent with your free will beliefs.
Why can one notvhave OSAS with free will choice?Some of you are conflicted, saying you can lose your salvation OR OSAS, but with free will. One cannot have OSAS with free will choice.
Ageed.The Bible teaches OSAS.
Actually, I say it is NOT predestination, it is "free will", and it is OSAS.Some say it is both predestination and free will.
That isn't me, no I need not address it. (At this time.)Those of you in those beliefs are confused because you don not believe what the Bible blatantly points out, that God has chosen His saints from the beginning, and is not just sitting there in heaven filling out the Lamb's Book of Life.
Now you have moved the goal posts. First you said there is no free will, now you are qualifying free will. Not a good way to present a solid argument.If any of you would be interested in such a long post showing the error of your thinking regarding free will, I may consider putting in such Scriptures that show that the choices we are told to make are with regard to life are ON EARTH, not pertinent to eternal life, and that God knew from the beginning who would choose life, regarding those OT examples of God telling us to choose life, such as in Deuteronomy 30 or Joshua 24.
Agreed.We are not saved by works, even when we do God's will. We are saved by grace through faith, which is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Please explain yourself. I believe that God created man with a free will. So how is that making Him a liar and/or impotent? Your claim doesn't make sense.You call Him a liar and impotent with your free will beliefs.
Please explain yourself again. How are they incompatible? I have no problem with both being true.One cannot have OSAS with free will choice.
Of course the Bible "blatantly points out that God has chosen His saints from the beginning". What you don't complete is the REASON for which they were chosen.Those of you in those beliefs are confused because you don not believe what the Bible blatantly points out, that God has chosen His saints from the beginning
Amen to that!![We are not saved by works, even when we do God's will. We are saved by grace through faith, which is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 - "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Not even Eph 1:4 is about being chosen for salvation. It is easily explained.