What did the Early Church Fathers write about the return of Christ during 70 AD?

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

See between the dotted lines below what Polycarp, and Ignatius, and Ireneaus, and Barnabus, and Justin Martyr, wrote about the return of Christ during 70 AD.

biblestudying.net

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LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
See between the dotted lines below what Polycarp, and Ignatius, and Ireneaus, and Barnabus, and Justin Martyr, wrote about the return of Christ during 70 AD.

biblestudying.net

Were any them there before or during 70AD as Josephus was?

Josephus and Luke 21:11 "fearful signs in heaven/sky" 1st century pre 70AD
=====================================
Here is an early century historian........

Early writing by Eusebius..........
Eusebius of Caesarea
Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine
(263 - 339)

"One of the best known and most accessible of the ancient preterists"

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." (III, 5:4)

(On Acts 1:11)
"But if, on the other hand, we can see the people of Egypt far more patently in actual fact than in mere description, some of them acknowledging the God of the prophets, and for His sake renouncing their ancestral gods, some of them raising political dissension against the converts, some of them even now calling upon their gods and images and them that speak from the ground, who no longer can effect aught, and some throughout all Egypt raising an altar to the Lord of the prophets for each local Church, calling no (d) longer in their troubles and persecutions on beasts or reptiles as their gods, nor on wild animals and unreasoning brutes as their fathers did, but on the Supreme God, retaining Him only and the fear of Him in their minds, praying to Him, and not to the daemons, and promising what men should promise God—how can we deny that the prophecies of long ago have at last been fulfilled? And these foretold that the Lord would come to Egypt not in an unembodied state, but in a light cloud, or better "in light thickness," for such is the meaning of the Hebrew, shewing figuratively His Incarnate state. Therefore the prophecy goes on to call Him a man that is a Saviour, saying, "And (415) the Lord shall send to them a man that is a Saviour." Here again the Hebrew is, "And He shall send to them a Saviour, who shall save them." As the proof is now so clear from this, I consider that there is no question of the time at which the prophecies foretold the Lord's Coming."

(On Fulfillment of Prophecies)
"For as it establishes Christianity on the basis of antecedent prophecies, so it establishes Judaism from the complete fulfillment of its prophecies." (Proof of the Gospel, Twin Brooks Series, I, p.5)

(On the Seventy Weeks)
"And all these things were fulfilled when the seventy weeks were completed at the date of our Saviour's Coming
..============================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! --

This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"
======================
Revelation 18:
4 And I heard another Voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth out of Her My people! that ye should not be joint partakers<4790> Her sins, and out of the blows/stripes<4127> of Her that no ye may be receiving.

16 and saying,
Woe! woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed<4016> with
fine linen,<1039> and purple,<4210> [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:12]
and scarlet,<2847> and have been gilded<5558> in gold <5553> and precious<2093> stone and pearls<3135>
That to one hour was desolated<2049> the so much riches.
18 And they cried<2896>, observing the smoke of Her firing<4451>, saying, "What like to the great City?"
===================================
Early Church Fathers on the Apocalypse
Irenaeus. Adv. Haer. 5.30-35
Justin Martyr Dial. 80-81
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.13.1-3.18.4 (The Emperor Domitian and John of Patmos, called here "the Evangelist")
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.24.17-3.25.7 (Revelation and the NT Canon)
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.39.1-12 (Papias)
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 7.24-25 (Dionysius of Alexandria on Nepos's interpretation of the Apocalypse and on the authorship of the Apocalypse)
Tertullian Adv. Marc. 3.25 (vision of the New Jerusalem)
Lactantius Div. Inst. 7.24-26
Commodianus Inst. 41 (the time of the Antichrist)
Clement Paed. 2.13 (on jewelry and the Heavenly Jerusalem)
Origen De Princ. 2.11.2-3 (spiritual vs. physical pleasures in the New Jerusalem)
Augustine Civ. Dei 20.7-17

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Were any them there before or during 70AD as Josephus was?

Josephus and Luke 21:11 "fearful signs in heaven/sky" 1st century pre 70AD
=====================================
Here is an early century historian........

Early writing by Eusebius..........
Eusebius of Caesarea
Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine
(263 - 339)

"One of the best known and most accessible of the ancient preterists"

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." (III, 5:4)

(On Acts 1:11)
"But if, on the other hand, we can see the people of Egypt far more patently in actual fact than in mere description, some of them acknowledging the God of the prophets, and for His sake renouncing their ancestral gods, some of them raising political dissension against the converts, some of them even now calling upon their gods and images and them that speak from the ground, who no longer can effect aught, and some throughout all Egypt raising an altar to the Lord of the prophets for each local Church, calling no (d) longer in their troubles and persecutions on beasts or reptiles as their gods, nor on wild animals and unreasoning brutes as their fathers did, but on the Supreme God, retaining Him only and the fear of Him in their minds, praying to Him, and not to the daemons, and promising what men should promise God—how can we deny that the prophecies of long ago have at last been fulfilled? And these foretold that the Lord would come to Egypt not in an unembodied state, but in a light cloud, or better "in light thickness," for such is the meaning of the Hebrew, shewing figuratively His Incarnate state. Therefore the prophecy goes on to call Him a man that is a Saviour, saying, "And (415) the Lord shall send to them a man that is a Saviour." Here again the Hebrew is, "And He shall send to them a Saviour, who shall save them." As the proof is now so clear from this, I consider that there is no question of the time at which the prophecies foretold the Lord's Coming."

(On Fulfillment of Prophecies)
"For as it establishes Christianity on the basis of antecedent prophecies, so it establishes Judaism from the complete fulfillment of its prophecies." (Proof of the Gospel, Twin Brooks Series, I, p.5)

(On the Seventy Weeks)
"And all these things were fulfilled when the seventy weeks were completed at the date of our Saviour's Coming
..============================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! --

This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"
======================
Revelation 18:
4 And I heard another Voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth out of Her My people! that ye should not be joint partakers<4790> Her sins, and out of the blows/stripes<4127> of Her that no ye may be receiving.

16 and saying,
Woe! woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed<4016> with
fine linen,<1039> and purple,<4210> [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:12]
and scarlet,<2847> and have been gilded<5558> in gold <5553> and precious<2093> stone and pearls<3135>
That to one hour was desolated<2049> the so much riches.
18 And they cried<2896>, observing the smoke of Her firing<4451>, saying, "What like to the great City?"
===================================
Early Church Fathers on the Apocalypse
Irenaeus. Adv. Haer. 5.30-35
Justin Martyr Dial. 80-81
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.13.1-3.18.4 (The Emperor Domitian and John of Patmos, called here "the Evangelist")
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.24.17-3.25.7 (Revelation and the NT Canon)
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.39.1-12 (Papias)
Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 7.24-25 (Dionysius of Alexandria on Nepos's interpretation of the Apocalypse and on the authorship of the Apocalypse)
Tertullian Adv. Marc. 3.25 (vision of the New Jerusalem)
Lactantius Div. Inst. 7.24-26
Commodianus Inst. 41 (the time of the Antichrist)
Clement Paed. 2.13 (on jewelry and the Heavenly Jerusalem)
Origen De Princ. 2.11.2-3 (spiritual vs. physical pleasures in the New Jerusalem)
Augustine Civ. Dei 20.7-17

How many saw Jesus Christ during 70 AD?
The answer is found below.
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.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
How many saw Jesus Christ during 70 AD?
.

How many of the early Church commentators were around pre 70AD?
I and others can bring up just as many Preterist/Amill commentators as you can Futurist commentators.....I notice futurists tend to shy away from Josephus in conjunction with the O D and Revelation......

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

PREFACE

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it ; but the fruits of their labours are, for the most part, contained in large and expensive works, out of the reach of numbers, to whom the discussion might prove equally interesting and improving. For the use and gratification of such, the present Treatise, in a more accessible and familiar form, is diffidently offered to the public. In order that it might be better adapted for the general reader, critical inquiries and tedious details are equally avoided ; but it has been the care of the writer not to omit any important fact or argument that, in his opinion, tended to elucidate the subject. Countenanced by the example of many respectable names, he has ventured to introduce the extraordinary prodigies, which, according to Josephus, preceded the destruction of the Holy City. He has also added a few sentences in their defense, but he does not intend thereby to express his unqualified admission of their genuineness.

Upon the execution of the tract, generally, the public will determine. Usefulness is the writer's main object ; and if a perusal of it shall contribute, under the DIVINE BLESSING, to confirm the wavering faith of only one Christian, or to shake the vain confidence of a single Unbeliever, his labour will be abundantly rewarded.

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
How many of the early Church commentators were around pre 70AD?

Polycarp

.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Polycarp

.

He wasn't in or around Jerusalem in 70AD.......He was born in Smyrna......
So that still leaves only Josephus as a witness............

Polycarp - Wikipedia

Polycarp (/ˈpɒlikɑːrp/; Greek: Πολύκαρπος, Polýkarpos; Latin: Polycarpus; AD 69 – 155) was a 2nd-century Christian bishop of Smyrna.[1] According to the Martyrdom of Polycarp he died a martyr, bound and burned at the stake, then stabbed when the fire failed to consume his body.[2] Polycarp is regarded as a saint and Church Father in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran churches. His name 'Polycarp' means 'much fruit' in Greek.

Josephus

The romanticized engraving of Flavius Josephus appearing in William Whiston's translation of his works
Born
Yosef ben Matityahu
37 CE
Jerusalem, Roman Judea
Died c. 100 CE (aged c. 63)
Spouse(s) Captured Jewish woman
Alexandrian Jewish woman
Greek Jewish woman from Crete
Children Flavius Hyrcanus
Flavius Simonides Agrippa
Flavius Justus
Parent(s) Matthias
Jewish noblewoman

Academic background
Influences

Academic work
Era Hellenistic Judaism
Main interests

Notable works

Influenced

Titus Flavius Josephus (/dʒoʊˈsiːfəs/;[2] Greek: Φλάβιος Ἰώσηπος; 37 – c. 100),[3] born Yosef ben Matityahu (Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu; Greek: Ἰώσηπος Ματθίου παῖς),[4][5][6] was a first-century Romano-Jewish historian who was born in Jerusalem—then part of Roman Judea—to a father of priestly descent and a mother who claimed royal ancestry
========================
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
SMYRNA

Revelation 2:8 "And to The Messenger of the Assembly in Smyrna, write!.................

The T-R appears to deviate from the other 3 texts in this verse.

Only YLT uses the word "Smyrneans" and the order is reversed:
'And to the *messenger of the assembly" of the Smyrneans write

Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The word "myrrh" is only used 2 times in the NT.
At the birth of Jesus and at His burial

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him,
and having opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,
John 39:
18 and Nicodemus also came -- who came unto Jesus by night at the first --
bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, as it were, a hundred pounds.
19 They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial

Call me Nic · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
He wasn't in or around Jerusalem in 70AD.......He was born in Smyrna......
So that still leaves only Josephus as a witness............

Polycarp - Wikipedia

Polycarp (/ˈpɒlikɑːrp/; Greek: Πολύκαρπος, Polýkarpos; Latin: Polycarpus; AD 69 – 155) was a 2nd-century Christian bishop of Smyrna.[1] According to the Martyrdom of Polycarp he died a martyr, bound and burned at the stake, then stabbed when the fire failed to consume his body.[2] Polycarp is regarded as a saint and Church Father in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran churches. His name 'Polycarp' means 'much fruit' in Greek.
========================
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
SMYRNA

Revelation 2:8 "And to The Messenger of the Assembly in Smyrna, write!.................

The T-R appears to deviate from the other 3 texts in this verse.

Only YLT uses the word "Smyrneans" and the order is reversed:
'And to the *messenger of the assembly" of the Smyrneans write

Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The word "myrrh" is only used 2 times in the NT.
At the birth of Jesus and at His burial

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and having fallen down they bowed to him,
and having opened their treasures, they presented to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,
John 39:
18 and Nicodemus also came -- who came unto Jesus by night at the first --
bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, as it were, a hundred pounds.
19 They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial

Jesus hasn't come back yet.

Call me Nic · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
See between the dotted lines below what Polycarp, and Ignatius, and Ireneaus, and Barnabus, and Justin Martyr, wrote about the return of Christ during 70 AD.

biblestudying.net

.............................................................................................

.................................................................................................

Hey that website that had the article you posted here is really good. I've been looking at it and wanted to thank you for sharing it. I'm going to keep looking into more articles and things they have to say.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
Jesus hasn't come back yet.

Were you there back there in 70AD like Josephus was?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

Call me Nic · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Were you there back there in 70AD like Josephus was?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars

Gary DeMar: Flavius Josephus and Preterism (2013)

Flavius Josephus and Preterism
By Gary DeMar
2013

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus
Administrative | Factional | Military | Theological | Topographical

James Hamilton, representing a hybrid view of historical premillenialism, said something like the following during the Symposium that he, Sam Waldron, and I participated in on February 23, 2013 in Reno, Nevada: “If preterists didn’t have Josephus, they wouldn’t be preterists.”

Who cares what some random person says? John the Apostle wrote the epistle of 1 John after 70 A.D and in that epistle he himself says Christ hasn't come back yet, but when he does come, we will be like him. None of us are like him yet, so Christ therefore hasn't come back yet. Also, John was speaking of it in the future tense. John the Apostle himself said Christ hadn't come back after 70 A.D had already come and gone... so Jesus hasn't come back yet.

I think you're putting your faith in too many non-biblical sources.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
Who cares what some random person says? John the Apostle wrote the epistle of 1 John after 70 A.D and in that epistle he himself says Christ hasn't come back yet, but when he does come, we will be like him. None of us are like him yet, so Christ therefore hasn't come back yet. Also, John was speaking of it in the future tense. John the Apostle himself said Christ hadn't come back after 70 A.D had already come and gone... so Jesus hasn't come back yet.
I think you're putting your faith in too many non-biblical sources.

That is a whole different topic.........
I am sure there are some threads hanging around somewhere concerning that......

Preterism and the Date of Revelation
Dating of the Apocalypse

12/14/12: Preterism Review – Did Fitzmeyer and Bruce endorse the early date for Revelation?
Nathaniel Lardner: Lardner on the Date of the Apocalypse (1788 PDF)
J.D. Michaelis – The Apocalypse (1801 English Edition PDF) “the Apocalypse contains prophecies with which the very persons to whom it was sent were immediately concerned. But if none of these prophecies were designed to be completed till long after their death, those persons were not immediately concerned with them, and the author would surely not have said that they were blessed in reading prophecies of which the time was at hand, if those prophecies were not to be fulfilled till after the lapse of many ages”
Bernard Henderson – The Life and Principate of Emperor Nero (1903 PDF) “The verses (of Revelation) 17. 10, can be differently explained. Almost certainly Caesar is not the first, but Augustus, so we have “five fallen,” “one is,” “one is not yet come and is to continue a short space,” and ” the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is of the seven ” (certainly = Nero, cf. 13. 3 ; 17. 8). The list then is, on the two rival theories, (a) Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero = the five. Galba = he who is; Galba’s successor (naturally unknown ex hyp.) = the one to come, but he can only last a short time because the end is fast approaching, and besides the pseudo-Nero is already active. Nero again = the eighth. (b) Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero = the five. Vespasian = he who is. His successor is undefined because ” the writer did not like to say the reigning Emperor would be overthrown.” Nero again = the eighth. For the Domitian theory I fail to see any possibility of a satisfactory list at all.”

WHEN WAS THE BOOK OF REVELATION WRITTEN?
About A.D. 95. 51% | Before A.D.70 38% | Other 2% | Don’t Know 10%

“I realize the Covenant Theology Preterist group will select before A.D. 70, but the Book of Revelation was written by John on the isle of Patmos in A.D. 95. I have read the preterist view point and find the scholarship very lacking. The Dispensational, futurist view of Bible prophecy is correct. :doh:

There is plenty of scholarship to prove it.” (Armageddonbooks Prophecy Poll)

solid_core · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Were you there back there in 70AD like Josephus was?

How close to real Josephus is the oldest copy of his work you have?

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

solid_core said:
How close to real Josephus is the oldest copy of his work you have?

The sites below have a fairly extensive study on Josephus........
If anyone can come up with another earlier Church Historian than him as a witness to the 1st century Jewish Wars and 70AD, please present it..

The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Works of Josephus – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Preterist Perspectives on Josephus' Wars of the Jews

Flavius Josephus

Study Archive

The Wars of the Jews Library ﻩ Exhaustive Bibliography ﻩ Visual Timeline | Works of Flavius Josephus ﻩ Josephus in Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia ﻩ Ancient Histories of Flavius Josephus ﻩ Flavius Josephus Home ﻩ PACE ﻩ Josephus, the Primary Source ﻩ Scientific Dating ﻩ Governmental Administrations ﻩ First Century Jerusalem ﻩ Historical Maps ﻩ Maps of Jerusalem

Flavius Josephus : Credibility and Importance : Steve Mason ﻩ Stebbing's Essay | The Credibility Of Josephus ﻩ The Jewish millionaire who surrendered to the Romans ﻩ David Chilton's Synopsis

Preterist Perspectives ﻩ Effects of the Fall of Jerusalem on Christianity ﻩ Did Jerusalem Christians Flee to Pella? | Josephus and Jesus ﻩ Revelation and Josephus

solid_core · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
The sites below have a fairly extensive study on Josephus........
If anyone can come up with another earlier Church Historian than him as a witness to the 1st century Jewish Wars and 70AD, please present it..

The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Works of Josephus – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Preterist Perspectives on Josephus' Wars of the Jews

Flavius Josephus

Study Archive

The Wars of the Jews Library ﻩ Exhaustive Bibliography ﻩ Visual Timeline | Works of Flavius Josephus ﻩ Josephus in Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia ﻩ Ancient Histories of Flavius Josephus ﻩ Flavius Josephus Home ﻩ PACE ﻩ Josephus, the Primary Source ﻩ Scientific Dating ﻩ Governmental Administrations ﻩ First Century Jerusalem ﻩ Historical Maps ﻩ Maps of Jerusalem

Flavius Josephus : Credibility and Importance : Steve Mason ﻩ Stebbing's Essay | The Credibility Of Josephus ﻩ The Jewish millionaire who surrendered to the Romans ﻩ David Chilton's Synopsis

Preterist Perspectives ﻩ Effects of the Fall of Jerusalem on Christianity ﻩ Did Jerusalem Christians Flee to Pella? | Josephus and Jesus ﻩ Revelation and Josephus

What I mean is - how do you know that the texts you refer to are really his and not some later fiction?

Did apostolic fathers (famous Christian teachers living in the 2nd century) refer to the 70AD in the same way Josephus did? Ignatius, Clement, Polykarp, Didaché etc.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The sites below have a fairly extensive study on Josephus........
If anyone can come up with another earlier Church Historian than him as a witness to the 1st century Jewish Wars and 70AD, please present it.

solid_core said:
What I mean is - how do you know that the texts you refer to are really his and not some later fiction?

That's avoiding answering my and the OPs post.

Are there any other actual historical writings from witnesses that were present in the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem? If anything, there would surely be at least some Jewish historians who witnessed it and wrote about it.

So for now we still have just Josephus..............

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Shall be tormented with fire and brimstone [Rev. xiv. 9-11]: these words may, indeed, very aptly signify torments after the resurrection. But as similar language occurs, [Rev.] chapter xix. 10, where no reference is had to that period, as is evident from what follows, it appears that an interpretation should here also be adopted, applicable to that people; -- that conscience should be understood as burning within them, in the presence of Christ and his angels: this would be somewhat like dwelling in gehenna. Thus have the poets represented the bosoms of men to be burned before the faces of the furies. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth, &c.: the memory of the afflictions they have suffered shall continually remain. Words often burst forth from the impious, testifying the anguish of their minds; as from Tiberius, in his epistle, found in Tacitus, and Suetonius. - Hugo Grotius

Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?

John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)

Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's
==========================
Josephus Parallels? Revelation 16:19 and Wars of the Jews 5:1:1

Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)

Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)
==============================
Josephus Parallels? Revelation 16:21 and Wars of the Jews 5:6:3

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)....................
===============================
http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction...pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
======================
This is perhaps the best video I have seen concerning Josephus' Jewish Wars coinciding with Matt

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
==================

solid_core · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
That's avoiding answering my and the OPs post.

Are there any other actual historical writings from witnesses that were present in the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem? If anything, there would surely be at least some Jewish historians who witnessed it and wrote about it.
So for now we just have Josephus..............

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology

Shall be tormented with fire and brimstone [Rev. xiv. 9-11]: these words may, indeed, very aptly signify torments after the resurrection. But as similar language occurs, [Rev.] chapter xix. 10, where no reference is had to that period, as is evident from what follows, it appears that an interpretation should here also be adopted, applicable to that people; -- that conscience should be understood as burning within them, in the presence of Christ and his angels: this would be somewhat like dwelling in gehenna. Thus have the poets represented the bosoms of men to be burned before the faces of the furies. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth, &c.: the memory of the afflictions they have suffered shall continually remain. Words often burst forth from the impious, testifying the anguish of their minds; as from Tiberius, in his epistle, found in Tacitus, and Suetonius. - Hugo Grotius

Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?

John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)

Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's
==========================
Josephus Parallels? Revelation 16:19 and Wars of the Jews 5:1:1

Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)

Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)
==============================
Josephus Parallels? Revelation 16:21 and Wars of the Jews 5:6:3

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)....................
===============================
http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction...pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
======================
This is perhaps the best video I have seen concerning Josephus' Jewish Wars coinciding with Matt

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
==================

So you do not know if Josephus really wrote something like that and the church of that era is totally silent about the topic which is really suspicious if something so big happened.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The sites below have a fairly extensive study on Josephus....
If anyone can come up with another earlier Church Historian than him as a witness to the 1st century Jewish Wars and 70AD, please present it.

solid_core said: ↑
What I mean is - how do you know that the texts you refer to are really his and not some later fiction?

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
That's avoiding answering my and the OPs post.

Are there any other actual historical writings from witnesses that were present in the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem? If anything, there would surely be at least some Jewish historians who witnessed it and wrote about it.

solid_core said:
So you do not know if Josephus really wrote something like that and the church of that era is totally silent about the topic which is really suspicious if something so big happened.

You're still being evasive.............
What is your own personal view of him and have you actually studied his writings on the 1st century Jewish Wars and 70AD? I am going to wait for others to respond before I go any further and no one has yet come up with anyone that was a witness in 70Ad........

With that said, here is a thread where you can vote on whether or not he was a reliable witness or not:

Was Josephus a reliable witness to Jerusalem 70ad?
Edit

*
Yes, it appears he was
15 vote(s)
93.8%
I don't think he was
1 vote(s)
6.3%
I have not read anything by him
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Who was Josephus?
0 vote(s)
0.0%
I don't know
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Other
0 vote(s)
0.0%
*
Josephus was correct concerning the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse
2 vote(s)
12.5%
Josephus viewed Revelation as mostly fulfilled
0 vote(s)
0.0%

solid_core · Oct 20, 2019

No point, you have no answers to my questions so you are not helpful for me.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

solid_core said:
No point, you have no answers to my questions so you are not helpful for me.

Perhaps others do.
G'night

mkgal1 · Oct 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
See between the dotted lines below what Polycarp, and Ignatius, and Ireneaus, and Barnabus, and Justin Martyr, wrote about the return of Christ during 70 AD.

BABerean2 said:
How many saw Jesus Christ during 70 AD?
The answer is found below.

BABerean - I know that I, personally, have posted in response to your posts multiple times over the last few months - pointing out that there is a difference between "the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven" and the return of Christ. Using the law of first mention:

"The Son of Man coming with the clouds" is a reference to Daniel's prophecy:

Daniel 7:13-14 ~ In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

solid_core said:
Did apostolic fathers (famous Christian teachers living in the 2nd century) refer to the 70AD in the same way Josephus did? Ignatius, Clement, Polykarp, Didaché etc.

Josephus wrote from a historical perspective (as far as I know) - but the early church fathers did write about the destruction of Jerusalem being fulfillment of Scripture (specifically Daniel's prophecy).

Quoting from linked article:

Bishop Kouri has added a new resource to Lesson 5, The Apostles’ Revelation: The Jewish Age, Behind, Not Ahead of The Church. Discover what the Post Apostolic Church fathers really believed about the Seventy Weeks of Daniel and the End of the Jewish Age.

AD250 The Non-Negotiables of Apostolic Christianity

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS AND THE LAST DAYS OF THE JEWISH AGE

BARNABAS:

Written anonymously around 100 AD, the “Epistle of Barnabas” is the earliest extra-Canonical source we have. Although not included in the Canon of the New Testament, it is an incredibly early documentation of the early Church’s beliefs about the last days. The Apostle John was probably alive when it was written. And although the authorship is disputed, we will refer to Barnabas as the author.

The Epistle of Barnabas sets forth the common view held by the early Church that the seventieth week of Daniel ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, as Messiah’s Day dawned and Christ’s Church was born. Barnabas writes, "For it is written, ‘And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built...in the name of the Lord.’ I find...that a temple does exist. Having received the forgiveness of sins…in our habitation God dwells in us….This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord." (EOB, 16:6)

Barnabas uses the expression "the week," but does not mention Daniel. Yet scholars agree from the context that this is definitely a reference to Daniel’s 70th week. And it is assumed by many scholars that the prophecy of Daniel’s seventy weeks was so well known and so widely expounded in the early Church that it needed no further explanation. The early Church did not avoid Daniel’s prophecy.

This early Christian writer connects Daniel’s vision of seventy weeks with the prophecy of Haggai 2:7-9 and the building of a "spiritual temple," the Church. The author of the Epistle of Barnabas obviously believed that Daniel’s 70th week was fulfilled with Christ’s first advent. This was when the Old Temple was destroyed and the new “spiritual temple” was initially established. Writing in 100 AD he clearly believed the 70th week of Daniel was already completed.

It seems clear from this passage in the Epistle of Barnabas that less than a century after Christ’s passion (remember that according to Daniel the Messiah would be cut off in the middle of the 70th week), it was the widespread belief of the Church that the 70th week of Daniel was completed. It is certain that Barnabas placed the end of the 70th week no later than 70 AD. His mention of the building of the Church (which was able to grow largely unimpeded after 70AD) makes it probable that Barnabas saw 67 to 70 AD and the destruction of Herod’s Temple as the end of the Jewish or Old Covenant Age and the dawning of Messiah’s Day. As David B. Currie writes in his book, Rapture, The End-Times Error That Leaves The Bible Behind, "He (Barnabas) assumes his readers will agree that the events of ‘the week’ led to the building of the Church.” (Page 422)

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDREA

Within a century of Barnabas, Clement became bishop of Alexandria until his death in 215 AD. Clement taught that the blessings of the New Covenant required the end of biblical Judaism within the 70 weeks of Daniel. Clement writes of the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD in the prophetic language of Daniel’s seventy weeks, "Vespasian rose to the supreme power (Emperor of Rome) and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place” (STO, XXI, 142-143).

Clement of Alexandrea believed the Jewish Age, the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and the great tribulation were behind, not ahead of the Church.

ORIGEN (185-254 AD)

A student of Clement of Alexandrea, Origen agreed that the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD marked the end of the Jewish Age and the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy regarding the 70 weeks. Origen writes, "The weeks of years up to the time of Christ the leader that Daniel the prophet predicted were fulfilled" (TPR, IV:1:5).

Like Clement, Origen also believed the Jewish Age, the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and the great tribulation were behind the Church, not ahead of it.

TERTULLIAN

In 203 AD Tertullian wrote his famous treatise Against The Jews. This early Church father also taught that Daniel’s 70th week had been fulfilled in 70 AD: "Vespasian vanquished the Jews…and so by the date of his storming Jerusalem, the Jews had completed the seventy weeks foretold by Daniel” (AAJ, VII; CID).

Contrary to modern postponement preachers and teachers, Tertullian believed the Jewish age, the abomination of desolation, and the great tribulation was behind, not ahead of the Church.

ATHANASIUS

Athanasius was bishop of Alexandria from 326 to 373 AD. Like the early Church fathers before him, he also taught that the 70 weeks of Daniel culminated and the Jewish Age ended in 70 AD: "Jerusalem is to stand till His coming (Daniel’s reference to Messiah’s appearing in His First Advent), and thenceforth, prophet and vision cease in Israel (the end of the Old Covenant or Jewish Age). This is why Jerusalem stood till then…that they might be exercised in the types as a preparation for the reality…but from that time forth all prophecy is sealed and the city and Temple taken" (INC, XXXIX:3-XV:8).

Athanasius clearly reflects the view of the entire early Church: once the Messiah had come, the role of the Temple in Jerusalem would be ended. “Things to be done which belonged to Jerusalem beneath…were fulfilled, and those which belonged to the shadows had passed away” (FEL, IV:3-4).

This important early Church father clearly believed that the Jewish age ended in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

IRENAEUS AND HIPPOLYTUS

Irenaeus was a contemporary of Clement of Alexandrea whose widely held view we dealt with above. Irenaeus and his pupil Hippolytus are the only two writers from the early Church period who believed in a still-future fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week. They both placed the 70th week at the end of the gospel age and so are the first interpreters to postulate a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks (AG, V). Both predicted a specific date for the second coming that has long since come and gone.

But their belief in a future 70th week was never widely accepted! St. Jerome specifically pointed out that the number of years in their system did not coincide with the historical events they purported to cover. He wrote, "If by any chance those of future generations should not see these predictions of his (Irenaeus) fulfilled at the time he (Irenaeus) set, then they will be forced to seek for some other solution and to convict the teacher himself (Irenaeus) of erroneous interpretation” (CID)

David B. Currie points out in his scholarly work, "As a point of history, the views of Irenaeus did give seed to premillennialism. But the early fathers of the Church strongly and universally denounced this concept. The early Church understood the presumptuous-parenthesis theory that rapturists employ…but they resoundingly rejected it.” (David B. Currie, Rapture, page 425)

The prevailing view of the early Church fathers was that Daniel’s vision of the 70 weeks was fulfilled in 70 AD. The final or 70th week began with the baptism of Jesus and his presentation to Israel by John the Baptist. The Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week when Jesus was crucified. The abomination of desolation and the great tribulation spoken of by Daniel were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD.

These events marked the end of the Jewish age and the dawning of Messiah’s Day.

~ The Early Church Fathers and the Last Days of the Jewish Age

The timeline of Daniel's 70 weeks from the Orthodox Church:

What did the Early Church Fathers write about the return of Christ during 70 AD?

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