the work of God and OSAS are they exclusive of each other
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Carl Emerson
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(Foreword: Forgive me for the length of this, but this is not something I can answer briefly in a way that is satisfactory for a debate that has continued for 2000 years, and this is actually much shorter than my full answer to this question. But for grace to the eyes, here is my most condensed explanation.)
There is a key and simple point that is often missed in understanding the relationship between works and salvation in the Gospel that causes the incessant unnecessary confusions: The Holy Spirit’s power and the new birth that power produces, which entails an inevitable and consequential new nature. Speaking to Nicodemus, Jesus declared: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).” And further, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6).” The problem with the common understanding of the language being used to communicate spiritual matters is that people (often including Christians) begin to think of spiritual truths as sentimental statements or metaphors rather than literal facts or events. This is because, whether consciously or unconsciously, the spiritual is often associated with the figurative and the physical is associated with the literal, which is absurd when you understand that we are substantially (as in literally in substance) a spirit that inhabits a body. Thus, though existing physically, we are not merely or even primarily physical.
The problem that arises from this is the ostensible “change without a difference” when discussing the distinction between salvation by works and salvation by believing the Gospel. When one asks, "So I am saved without works?" and you correctly respond affirmatively, and they then ask, "So I can be saved and go on sinning?" and you rightly deny that possibility, the audience often becomes confused. It results in the branching of many false doctrines, including salvation by works, salvation by grace but its continuity by works, or salvation with no connection to works, among others. However, the simple and abundantly designated solution in Scripture is to understand the new birth, and that the new birth is spiritual but not figurative or sentimental but literal; it is a literal-spiritual event.
This is so important to comprehend because when one recognizes this, the new nature which necessarily entails new desires and consequently new correspondent actions clarifies the relationship between salvation and works; it clarifies why one can not attain salvation by works but why they can not claim salvation concurrent with no works. They have a new nature! They literally are a new creation! As Paul exclaimed: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here (2 Corinthians 5:17)!”
This is so important to comprehend because when one recognizes this, the new nature which necessarily entails new desires and consequently new correspondent actions clarifies the relationship between salvation and works; it clarifies why one can not attain salvation by works but why they can not claim salvation concurrent with no works. They have a new nature! They literally are a new creation! As Paul exclaimed: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here (2 Corinthians 5:17)!”
Your first, physical nature entailed physical desires that produced physical works: Hunger causes eating, fatigue inclines us to rest, social desire causes communication, boredom rouses activity, a desire for honour produces ambition, etc. Everything we do in the body that is of the body is because of that body that was received at birth with its nature. If one is born-again, a spiritual but literal event, they will have a new birth with a new nature that entails new desires, ambitions, appetites and actions. You will have spiritual hunger to consume the Word of God (Matthew 4:4), spiritual fatigue that needs to rest in Christ, a spiritual need to commune with the Spirit of God, a spiritual discontentment that needs more of God, and a desire for God's glory that makes you ambitious to glorify His name.
No one is perfect, and any who claims to be without sin is actually himself a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 1:8). However, a seed that does not grow is dead, a baby that neither moves nor grows is dead and a "faith" without works is dead (James 2:17, James 2:26) because these things by their very nature, when alive, grow and move and act. Just like a miscarried child has not been born, so one who hears the Gospel and claims to receive it but does not grow (in righteousness), nor move (towards Christ), nor act (according to God’s will) has never been born-again. In 1 John 3:7-10 we are told: “Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.”
In conclusion, the Bible is clear (with many more verses than I even shared here) that salvation is a new-creation event in which a person is born by the will of God with a new nature and empowered by the Holy Spirit of God to live the Christian life. Thus, once saved always saved is true, because the person is not being unborn then reborn ad infinitum every time they sin then stop sinning (which implies the absurd notion Jesus corrected Nicodemus about concerning the nature of this birth). Rather, a person either is a new wineskin with new wine, or an old wineskin with new wine, ready to burst when put to the test. So a true Christian will fail, but by nature ultimately repent and grow. Conversely, a false convert will succeed sometimes, but by nature ultimately fail and depart.
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Guojing
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Like many things in the 4 Gospels, we often read and interpret them from Paul's perspective. We often forget the audience that Jesus was preaching to in the 4 Gospels.
Jesus was only preaching to the Jews then, and they all follow the Law. They also needed to believe that Jesus was their Promised Messiah, in order to complete their salvation process.
Just because Jesus did not mention the Law in those verses, it does not mean he is saying that believing in him is sufficient for salvation, i.e. following the Law was not also required.
He is saying what are the necessary conditions for salvation in the above verses, which does not contradict what he said to the expert in the Law in Luke 10:25-28
Similarly, one should not use John 3:16 to make an argument that obedience to the Law was not necessary for salvation.
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Carl Emerson
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Some heard Paul preach and started to change their way of thinking. There was a revival in Scotland. Alcoholics heard the preaching. They stopped drinking and the local tavern closed and remained closed for decades. Some continued to study the NT and were changed.
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GraceBro
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God is no longer counting our sins against us (2 Corinthians 5:19; Romans 4:8). Therefore, whatever sin is committed is not separating us from God no matter how severe it may be. This doesn't mean sin is okay. It means sin so terrible that it deserves the death of God as payment, not our bloodless sacrifices that God no longer accepts or requires (Hebrews 9:22; Hebrews 10:17-18). The Gospel is sin, death, forgiveness, and the restoration of the life of God. Because born again Christians now have the life of God indwelling us, made possible through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there is now no sin that can cause us to lose His life because of the eternal consequences of the cross. Therefore, the life we have been given through faith in Jesus Christ is an eternal life that will carry us through the rest of this physical life, past death and on into eternity. Since salvation is the restoration of the life of God and there is no sin counted against us, we have assurance of our salvation (i.e. OSAS). Grace and Peace
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The problem with that teaching is the effect it has on some other people. That is why it is nowhere to be found in scripture. Everyone is and always will be accountable to God. And your idea causes some to believe otherwise.
OSAS is only true in the sense God lives in the future and knows who is his forever. He has shown that to some individuals, but definitely not to everyone. Only to a minority. So the danger of your teaching is that other people can get the idea they can join a church, read a book, know about Christ, and be saved. That's not true.
If that were true God would not have killed millions of other people who claimed to know him. And that will happen again. Many of them will believe they are saved, because of your teaching. Read Matthew 7:13-28. The scripture claims that you don't know what love is if you believe by knowing Christ you can do whatever you wish.
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I understand "believe in" to mean we believe Jesus and all he tells us, as in the verse at the end of this post. And what he tells us is there is no, only "claim" we believe and go to heaven (OSAS) but that believing requires action. The following makes my point and is from the mouth of Christ:
John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
We must make reasonable effort, or else.
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As Christ told Satan, worship your God and serve him only. That is what believe in Christ means. Any other definition is teaching death to the hearers. And why do people accept other ideas? To live as they choose, rebels against God. There is no other reason for it.
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Then our salvation is in our hands and not the Lord's. When the Lord made the Abrahamic Covenant Abrahams part in fulfilling the covenant was to be in a state of death as in while you were dead in your sins. How much does a dead man contribute to anything? They don't. If it is not pure Grace there is room for our bragging and taking what must be His Glory for ourselves.
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yeshuaslavejeff
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No. Not only that, but also
there are (or seem to be ) a lot of hang-ons associated with the various teachings involving so-calles osas, and it seems it is not compatible with the work of Yahuweh (God) nor in line with His Word and Plan in Christ Jesus.
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Are you saying non OSAS is indicating the Lord has nothing to do with our salvation? If so, I'd like to know where you got that idea?
It's in the hands of both us and the Lord.
The giveaway that some preacher came up with that and it is not biblical is that it was "a state" of death, not true death as they insinuate. IOW they aren't really dead in the true sense. A living man, no matter how dead in there sin can contribute a lot once they see the light. Weren't we all dead in our sin at one time? Yet many of us came out of it.
The comment sounds truly wise to those who want to believe OSAS but in the end it's nothing more than tricky.
May I ask where you heard that?
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His student
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Do you know of anyone, who claims to be Christian, - in the forum or anywhere - who teaches that everyone is not accountable to God? If so - would you please provide a link?
I know of no one who teaches such a thing and I have no idea how anyone could get that idea from what I said.
What you say here has nothing to do with God starting a work in a person which He has vowed to complete.
Read the passage again.
It wont happen because of my teaching - but quite the opposite. It will happen because of the teaching that says that the good "Christian" works of a person will justify them before God.
Actually they will believe they are saved because of the teaching that their good works will commend them to God in the end. In spite of all the goodness they will trot out in order to justify themselves, He will tell such people that He has never known them. He obviously never started a good work in them. They started it themselves and their salvation will stand or fall on their works justifying them before God or not.
As commendable as our Christian activities may seem to us, such people will be sadly mistaken.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death."
Proverbs 14:12
Salvation is of God from start to finish.
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Show me.
And you are saying there is no preacher who teaches that, that you know of? And that you came to those conclusions completely on your own with no input from anyone?
It's in the hands of both us and the Lord.
A couple of things. If it is in both our hands then we have room to brag you have made us a poor mans Mary as co-redeemer. If you read what I wrote again you will see I am saying the exact opposite of your claim that it is solely Christ and only Christ that saves.
Who is bragging?
And what do you make of the following, are we obligated to do good and not evil in order to not be condemned to Hell or are we released from that once saved?
John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
And considering that, who's hand is doing good in? It appears Christ is saying it's in our hands, as we are the "those" he speaks of. But you tell me who.
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