2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal said:
What about the OTHER times that "comings" of the Lord are mentioned in the Bible (as I provided). Why are those different - if you believe they are? Why are the New Testament proclamations different than the Old Testament?

JLB777 said:
How could the second coming of Jesus Christ take place in the Old Testament before He first appeared? Before the first coming?
JLB

Maybe that's something you ought to consider based on all the times that "the coming of the Lord" is mentioned ALL throughout the Bible.

Preston Eby explains that God has been revealed from heaven in a progressive way. Christ was in the beginning - as He is God (John 1:1).

The following is an excerpt from J. Preston Eby's LOOKING FOR HIS APPEARING
Kindgdom Bible Studies
which unfolds something similar from Scripture.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

THE COMINGS OF THE LORD

We have been led to think in terms of the first coming and the second coming, whereas the Bible speaks in terms of the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ. Our God does not talk about the "first coming" and the "second coming" - He talks about the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. For example, let us take a look at that thought in Micah 5:2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall He come forth unto Me who is to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting."

Notice, His "goings forth." The plural is used. The goings forth of the Lord speak about the Lord Jesus Christ! Now, the idea of "goings" has to do with the onward marching of God - the unfolding of the purpose of God, step by step. This is what is indicated here. This is what history is all about, the progressive revelation of Jesus Christ, the marching forward of God, the ever-increasing unveiling of Himself to man. The unfolding of end-time events and God's order for the ages to come, which are the main contents of the last book of the Bible, are called "the Revelation of Jesus Christ."

The term "second coming" is as unfortunate as it is unscriptural. It implies there has been only one coming of Christ thus far. This is not true. It may surprise you to learn that the scripture does not treat His coming at Bethlehem as an isolated event. Although it is important, it is not considered out of proportion to other and comparable events. His coming as a man was a step in the development of God's plan for redemption of the world.. Actually, Bethlehem is one in a series of appearances of Christ into the world. By the same token, it is not His last coming to the earth. In order to get the importance of His birth, let's withdraw from Bethlehem and consider His coming there as just one event in the panorama of the ages. Let us consider this theme under the following divisions: (1) Before Bethlehem (2) Beginning at Bethlehem (3) Because of Bethlehem.

An abundance of scripture supports the fact that Christ was before Bethlehem. He is just as real in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. The great difference, of course, is that HE BECAME FLESH. He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM.." Also He said, Is my Father works hitherto and I work." He and the Father were working long before Bethlehem. John opened his matchless Gospel with this majestic statement: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God" (Jn. 1:1-2). The prophet Isaiah had made a very careful distinction about His birth at Bethlehem: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given." Micah, the contemporary of Isaiah, had said, as I have pointed out, that He would come forth from Bethlehem but that "His goings forth have been FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING." His footprints were manifested in this world before the prints were made in His hands.

JLB777 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I don't think you *do* understand the problem.

You're right - you have been giving me 1st and 2nd Thessalonians scriptures on a loop - but you seem to be ignoring the passages that *I* shared about the "coming of the Lord" mentioned in the Old Testament. I'd asked you to respond to those passages and to offer your thoughts on them.

This was my original response to you saying that "the coming of the Lord (Parousia) is when the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the antichrist occur."

I said:

So - care to comment on these Isaiah and Micah passages? What are your thoughts about *these* comings of the LORD?

It’s called context brother: context.

As I said, the coming (parousia) of the Lord refers to His return at the end of the age and destroys the wicked and gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture.

Here is an Old Testament prophecy about that Day.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

This is the prophecy that Jesus taught Him s disciples about on the mount of olives.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3

JLB

JLB777 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Maybe that's something you ought to consider based on all the times that "the coming of the Lord" is mentioned ALL throughout the Bible.

It doesn’t matter how many times it’s mentioned throughout the Bible, there is only one coming (parousia) of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord; The Day of Christ.

When He returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, and destroy the wicked.

JLB

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
It doesn’t matter how many times it’s mentioned throughout the Bible, there is only one coming (parousia) of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord; The Day of Christ.

When He returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, and destroy the wicked.

JLB

Are you going to comment on the Isaiah & Micah passages? Or - are you rolling all of His comings into just 2 (His birth and future return)?

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
It’s called context brother: context.

Correction: sister.

Woke · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
No, that is *definitely* not my assumption. I was referring to others that hold to that view and building on that idea and how it doesn't make sense the Thessalonians would be afraid they missed an event like that.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 ~ not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a
message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

Yes - that is referring to the Day of the Lord. The disagreement is over timing and meaning of terms. I don't believe "Christ returns to take world domination" in the way some people do (and that's what caused the zealots a lot of trouble in the 1st century - they also expected their own version of that). Christ assuming His (rightful) place on the throne of David isn't something seen on earth - but the people in the 1st century saw the *signs* of that occurrence (in my belief).

I called it your assumption that someone there was distributing a letter as if from the apostles, because Paul didn't say anybody was. He just warned them about accepting the wrong view, if that happens. Just like he warned them not to accept that idea if it came through prophecy.

At the end of 1Thessalonians Paul wrote the Lord's day will come like a thief in the night. A similar metaphor was used by Christ of his return.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
If you notice the context of this letter, it's an event that gives immediate relief to the pressure from persecution the 1st century Thessalonians were experiencing. There's no suggestion they'd be "raptured out" or else there wouldn't have been confusion about this judgement already occurring as this part of the letter mentions later on:

BABerean2 said: ↑
Paul's previous letter to the Thessalonian church reveals the context of the passage above.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

mkgal1 said:
Right. The point I'm trying to make is that - in between this 1st letter from Paul, Timothy, and Silvanus and the 2nd one - those at the church @ Thessolonica were confused by false teachers stating the this "coming of the Lord" had already happened (and the letter was to assure them it hadn't happened yet - when the letter was written....around 51 to 52 A.D.). If what they were expecting to happen were as if some people in our present day imagine this occurrence to be (with the church being gathered and God destroying the unbelievers) then how could they be afraid that had already happened? Either they would've been gathered up or destroyed in that sort of scenario. So that doesn't leave much room for it happening and people missing it (IF that were the proper teaching).

If that is what Paul had instructed them - first hand when he was with them (and is what these letters mean) then that doesn't seem like something people would be confused about happening (when it hadn't). Do you follow?

This is how 2 Thessalonians begins - answering their question:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ~ Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Quoting from linked article: For if their expectation of the Lord’s coming was that it would bring an end to the world, or that it would result in the instant removal of all believers from the planet, it’s hard to imagine how they could be led to believe that these things had already occurred. If the Day of the Lord referred to “a rapture,” and they thought it may have already occurred, why would Paul still be around? As David Lowman, a Presbyterian pastor, has written:

“Now, if on the other hand, the Thessalonians believed the Day of the Lord to be the coming judgment against apostate Israel, then asking about that event would make sense. And if they had friends or relatives in the Judean area it would easily explain their concern that the Day of the Lord had passed.”
David points out that the Greek word for the phrase “gathered together,” episunagoge, used in II Thess. 2:1, appears three times in the New Testament: [1] in Matthew 24:31 (“…and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”; see our study of this passage), [2] here in this passage, [3] and in Hebrews 10:25 (“not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near”). ~ II Thessalonians 2 and the Man of Lawlessness

mkgal1 said: ↑
That doesn't address the conundrum I mentioned between what those at the church of Thessalonica (around 51-52 A.D.) were writing to Paul about - their confusion about whether or not the coming of the Lord had already happened & the problem that causes to the belief that this "coming of the Lord" is about believers being taken and unbelievers being destroyed (in your belief - that remains left unfulfilled).

Woke said:
You are assuming those Thessalonians believed they would be raptured up when Christ first comes. If we think we know what they believed that idea of ours will contradict the FACTS Paul is correcting their beliefs in his letter, he is correcting it because someone is teaching wrong ideas, and when there is a group of any size its members don't believe the same things. Just as members on this thread.

It's clear what Paul meant by his reference to what Christ does. In scripture Christ does not come to Earth to kill those who don't believe in him until he comes to rule the whole world. Gospels teach Roman armies would destroy Jerusalem, not Christ and his angels.

Many comments on this thread are assuming ideas not in the scriptures. Like you saying the letter infers someone was spreading a letter to those people claiming the day of the Lord occurred. No it doesn't.

There are no scriptures anywhere in the Bible that state Christ comes back after he was killed and kills unbelievers, until he comes to rule the world. That's the huge hole in your argument.

But since you did mention that belief the Thessalonians could have held about the rapture. Look at chapter 2, and remember there were no chapters in the original letter. Paul continues in chapter two to speak of Christ's coming and he adds that they will be gathered to Christ when he comes, just as Paul wrote in his first letter when writing of Christ's return. Paul didn't start a completely different topic, talking about a completely separate event than the event he introduced in chapter one of his second letter. He was speaking of the SAME event. That pokes another HUGE hole in the argument of those who teach chapter one refers to Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70. Since Christians were not added to Christ's presence in AD 70 chapter two also tears your argument apart.

COMPARE WHAT PAUL WROTE AT 1THESSALONIANS 5:2 TO WHAT CHRIST SAID ABOUT HIS COMING AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. PAUL SAID THAT HAPPENS ON, "THE DAY OF THE LORD, " AT 1 THESSALONIANS 5:2. AND IS'T THAT THE "LORD'S DAY? " SOMEONE ON THIS THREAD WAS TEACHING "THE LORD'S DAY," IS NOT WHEN CHRIST RETURNS TO TAKE WORLD DOMINATION. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT PAUL TAUGHT.

mkgal1 said: ↑
No, that is *definitely* not my assumption. I was referring to others that hold to that view and building on that idea and how it doesn't make sense the Thessalonians would be afraid they missed an event like that.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 ~ not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a
message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

Woke said:
I called it your assumption that someone there was distributing a letter as if from the apostles, because Paul didn't say anybody was. He just warned them about accepting the wrong view, if that happens. Just like he warned them not to accept that idea if it came through prophecy.
At the end of 1Thessalonians Paul wrote the Lord's day will come like a thief in the night. A similar metaphor was used by Christ of his return.

The Lord did come like a thief in the night in 70AD........Read Josephus on the Destruction of Jerusalem...........

Isa 5:
25 Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people;
He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled.
Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets.
30 In that day they will roar against them Like the roaring of the sea.
And if one looks to the land, Behold! darkness and sorrow; And the light is darkened by the clouds.
===================
Luke 12:20 "But God said to him 'thou fool! this night your soul is required of thee. The things which thou hast prepared--whose will they be?'

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:29 Signs in sun, moon, stars, powers of heavens shaken Luk 21:25-26

Luke 21:
25 And shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars,
And on the land together anguish/distress<4928> of nations, state of quandary/perplexity<640>, roaring<2279> of sea and of shaking/tempest<4535>,
26 men fainting of heart from fear<5401> and apprehensiveness<4329> of the coming to the those dwelling upon the land <3625>.
For the powers of the heavens shall be being shaken

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts.
John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example.
Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance. A ceaseless cry of combatants was heard day and night, and yet the lamentations of mourners were still more dreadful.

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Consider the audience Paul was speaking to. These were mostly Gentiles, with no previous knowledge of the God of the Israelites. Their culture was pagan cultism. It would make sense that they would fall back on their previous understandings of gods and the afterlife and compare the Gospel of Jesus Christ to what was familiar to them.

Quoting Dr. Randall Otto: The Thessalonian church was comprised primarily of Gentile converts from the pagan cults of Dionysus, Zeus, Asclepius, Aphrodite, Demeter, and perhaps most important, the cult of Cabirus. They were converts from a social and religious milieu in which gods and demons were understood to have control over virtually all aspects of life. "Threatened by powers and demons, by illnesses and unforeseen strokes of fate, one lived in suspense and fear and felt subject to overpowering forces against which one could not assert oneself." 2 The Thessalonian converts may have thought that the gods and demons who inhabited the air were responsible for the persecution and death suffered in their church. In fear occasioned by the apparent victories of the forces of darkness over them, the Thessalonian church was concerned whether those who had died would be with the Lord at all, not simply at his parousia. Their own fate would thus also have been in doubt. It was with these specific concerns in mind that Paul wrote the 4,13-5,10 pericope, affirming that those whom God has elected are assuredly the Lord's, attested by their "meeting in the air" at the parousia to behold the victory of the conquering Christ over the forces of darkness. ~ "The Meeting in the Air (1 Thess 4:17)," Horizons in Biblical Theology 19 (1997):192-212,God of hope - Randall E. Otto - Free E-Book Download

IOW......Paul (and Timothy and Silvanus) were reassuring them, I believe, that they were still in the middle of God's war......and that their persecution *would* end soon. That's why this promise was given to the Thessalonians - to reassure them (their "rest" wasn't in death - but in the end of the persecution that happened in 70 A.D.):

2 Thessalonians 1:6 ~ God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

2 Thessalonians 1:7 ~ And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels.

Can you explain why the none of the Early Church Fathers writings viewed the passage that way, after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD?

.

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
The Lord did come like a thief in the night in 70AD

Nobody saw Christ during 70 AD, because He remained seated at the Father's right hand while the Romans destroyed the city, in the same way the Babylonians had destroyed it during an earlier time.

Notice that the return of Christ is after the "times of the Gentiles" comes to fullness. See also Romans 11:25 for a reference to the times of the Gentiles.

Why did the Early Church Fathers not write about Christ returning during 70 AD, after the city had been destroyed?

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
.

I have already addressed that verse numerous time with you. :doh:

[I will leave it up to the OP whether we are off topic with this or not]

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Daniel 11:33
And ones being intelligent<7919> of people they shall cause to understand to many-ones,
and they stumble<3782> in sword and in blaze<3852>, in captivity<7628> and in plunder days<3117>
[Sword and captive/captivity are mentioned together in only 2 verses of the NT:]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 11:2 Revelation 13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
===========================
Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '
===============
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome. After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]
=========================
You can address it on this 70ad Luke 21:24 and Revelation 13:10 thread.

Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?

*
Yes
3 vote(s)
25.0%
No
7 vote(s)
58.3%
Maybe
0 vote(s)
0.0%
I am not sure but am willing to learn
1 vote(s)
8.3%
Does it matter?
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Other
1 vote(s)
8.3%

===============================
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
I have already addressed that verse numerous time with you.

And I have already addressed the fact that Christ did not return to planet earth during 70 AD, with you on numerous occasions.
Nobody saw Him during 70 AD.

Can you explain why the writings of the Early Church Fathers missed the return of Christ during 70 AD?
What did Polycarp, and Ignatius write about it?
Were these students of the Apostle John confused about the "parousia"?
See the link below.

biblestudying.net

.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said: ↑
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

LittleLambofJesus said:
I have already addressed that verse numerous time with you.
[I will leave it up to the OP whether we are off topic with this or not]

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Daniel 11:33
And ones being intelligent<7919> of people they shall cause to understand to many-ones,
and they stumble<3782> in sword and in blaze<3852>, in captivity<7628> and in plunder days<3117>
[Sword and captive/captivity are mentioned together in only 2 verses of the NT:]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 11:2 Revelation 13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
===========================
Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '
===============
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome. After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]
=========================
You can address it on this 70ad Luke 21:24 and Revelation 13:10 thread.

Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?

*
Yes
3 vote(s)
25.0%

No
7 vote(s)
58.3%

Maybe
0 vote(s)
0.0%

I am not sure but am willing to learn
1 vote(s)
8.3%

Does it matter?
0 vote(s)
0.0%

Other
1 vote(s)
8.3%

===============================
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history

BABerean2 said:
And I have already addressed the fact that Christ did not return to planet earth during 70 AD, with you on numerous occasions.
Nobody saw Him during 70 AD.

Can you explain why the writings of the Early Church Fathers missed the return of Christ during 70 AD?
What did Polycarp, and Ignatius write about it?
Were these students of the Apostle John confused about the "parousia"?
See the link below.

First address that verse I responded to you that you put up. :oldthumbsup:

You can address it on this 70ad Luke 21:24 and Revelation 13:10 thread.

Hope to see you and/or others on there........ :wave:

Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?

*
Yes
3 vote(s)
25.0%
No
7 vote(s)
58.3%
Maybe
0 vote(s)
0.0%
I am not sure but am willing to learn
1 vote(s)
8.3%
Does it matter?
0 vote(s)
0.0%
Other
1 vote(s)
8.3%

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

Woke said:
I called it your assumption that someone there was distributing a letter as if from the apostles, because Paul didn't say anybody was. He just warned them about accepting the wrong view, if that happens. Just like he warned them not to accept that idea if it came through prophecy.

It's not my assumption. It's what 2 Thess 2:2 implies.

mkgal1 · Oct 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
And I have already addressed the fact that Christ did not return to planet earth during 70 AD, with you on numerous occasions.
Nobody saw Him during 70 AD.

.

I don't believe anyone in this thread is even making that claim.

The passage says this:

Since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and [to reward] with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. [This will take place] at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels,

JLB777 · Oct 21, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Are you going to comment on the Isaiah & Micah passages? Or - are you rolling all of His comings into just 2 (His birth and future return)?

What would you like me to comment on?

Do you believe they refer to the second coming of Christ?

Just one, His parousia, His coming where He gathers His people and destroys the wicked.

The first was called His appearing.

He will also appear a second time at His coming.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

JLB

JLB777 · Oct 21, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Matthew 24, The Olivet Discourse, is Jesus teaching His disciples privately about the events of His coming and the end of the age, which is found in Zechariah.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light. Zechariah 15:1-7

Thus the Lord my God will come,And all the saints with You.

This day Jesus was referring to when He comes with His saints to gather together all His people At the resurrection and rapture

This is the Day of the Lord.

It is future.

JLB

JLB777 · Oct 21, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Correction: sister.

It’s called context, sister.

JLB

mkgal1 · Oct 21, 2019

JLB777 said:
Matthew 24, The Olivet Discourse, is Jesus teaching His disciples privately about the events of His coming and the end of the age, which is found in Zechariah.

Correct. I'm glad you used the phrase "end of the age" - because that's what the original language states. This was the end of the Jewish Temple age. The full end of the old covenant age. Throughout the Gospels we see a common instruction (and you quoted something that alludes to it in Zechariah's prophecy):

JLB777 said:
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,

Matthew 24:16 ~ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-21 ~ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

Mark 13:14 ~ But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that reads understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains

Eusebius records that when Vespasian began to close in on Jerusalem, believers living there received a sign, “given by revelation to those in Jerusalem who were ‘approved,’ bidding them leave the doomed city and settle in Pella” (F.F. Bruce, 1983, p. 375). Pella was a community on the other side of the Jordan River in modern day Jordan. ~ Daniel – Pursuing Truth

mkgal1 · Oct 21, 2019

JLB777 said:
What would you like me to comment on?

Do you believe they refer to the second coming of Christ?

Just one, His parousia, His coming where He gathers His people and destroys the wicked.

The first was called His appearing.

He will also appear a second time at His coming.

I've asked you about those other references to the "comings of the Lord". You repeatedly state that there are just TWO comings of the Lord - but I see many throughout Scripture. I specifically offered two examples - one from Isaiah and another from Micah. Are you willing to take the time to contemplate those Scriptures? Or are you going to just keep on repeating your refrain (and not allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and inform your understanding)?

JLB777 · Oct 21, 2019

mkgal1 said:
This was the end of the Jewish Temple age.

No such thing in the Bible, as “Jewish Temple age”.

Those are your man made words, which are used to prop up a man made doctrine.

There is this age, in which men and women are married.

Then there is the age to come, (that age) whereby there is no more marriage, and those who are resurrected from the dead, no longer die.

Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

If people are still getting married and can die, then it is still
“this age”.

JLB

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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